Is Burn in real?

[Guest]

I've always been convinced that burn in is nothing other than placebo, but if it isn't real, why do many audio companies refer to it? Meze audio insists that you let their headphones burn in befor coming to any conclusions, Sennheiser often mentions it, so do alot of companies. Why?

[Daniel Z.]

It's not real except in some very specific instances. It's just your brain adjusting to the new sound

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Daniel Z. said:

It's not real except in some very specific instances. It's just your brain adjusting to the new sound

yea you kind of missed the question. Why do companies want people to think it's real, eventhough it isn't. 

[Daniel Z.]

2 minutes ago, OddGreyFox211 said:

yea you kind of missed the question. Why do companies want people to think it's real, eventhough it isn't. 

Probably so people don't return their new products before getting used to the sound. When I went from the HyperX Cloud to the K7xx, I first didn't hear a massive difference. I tried to go back a week later and the difference was night and day

[Jurrunio]

24 minutes ago, OddGreyFox211 said:

I've always been convinced that burn in is nothing other than placebo, but if it isn't real, why do many audio companies refer to it?

because not every customer believes that burn in is just placebo.

[Bombastinator]

My memory of burn in from long ago was a thing for all electronics where if something was going to fail chances are it would do it quickly so by running it for a while bad stuff would be likely to be found.  Doesn’t sound like remotely the same thing though.  

[rice guru]

Depends on who you ask. There is a lot that can affect how something sounds to a person over time. Both physically and in the head. But headphone manufacturers also spend time and money in the factory doing it as well.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Daniel Z. said:

Probably so people don't return their new products before getting used to the sound.

That was my first thought too. Still think it's a bit deceitful to strengthen the myth of burn in just so some costumers spend more time with their product before reflecting on their buying decision, esspecially coming from companies like Sennheiser, they definetely know better.

[kasugatei]

The whole burn in term comes from the vacuum tube technology era. Tubes will change its characteristics over burn in time so their sound will change as well. Burn in terminology is used because when high operating voltage is applied to the tube it will release heat, after all they have heaters inside, and it would literally burn leftover impurities and stabilize atomic structure of the filament grid inside. 
 

Long story short, 99% of modern audio equipment doesn’t require it. Moving of the drivers in headphones (read: playing music with them) will soften them a bit, but it will not change the sound in any easily noticeable way.

 

A bit off topic, but for all guitar players here, guitar speakers require some playing through them (also referred as burn in) before they “settle in”. After all those are the speakers designed to work under conditions (constant clipping) which would burn the standard speakers. 

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, Niksa said:

The whole burn in term comes from the vacuum tube technology era. Tubes will change its characteristics over burn in time so their sound will change as well. Burn in terminology is used because when high operating voltage is applied to the tube it will release heat, after all they have heaters inside, and it would literally burn leftover impurities and stabilize atomic structure of the filament grid inside. 
 

Long story short, 99% of modern audio equipment doesn’t require it. Moving of the drivers in headphones (read: playing music with them) will soften them a bit, but it will not change the sound in any easily noticeable way.

 

A bit off topic, but for all guitar players here, guitar speakers require some playing through them (also referred as burn in) before they “settle in”. After all those are the speakers designed to work under conditions (constant clipping) which would burn the standard speakers. 

So a word with multiple meanings but a similar effect, whether it’s the structure of a vacuum tube, the jump of a speaker or the brain structure of a listener.

[The Flying Sloth]

Short answer is this : Yes, burn-in is very real but no, modern designs do not often benefit from being 'burnt in'. 

[Derkoli]

1 hour ago, OddGreyFox211 said:

I've always been convinced that burn in is nothing other than placebo, but if it isn't real, why do many audio companies refer to it? Meze audio insists that you let their headphones burn in befor coming to any conclusions, Sennheiser often mentions it, so do alot of companies. Why?

I've always noticed a difference, but it's my brain adjusting to a different sound signature.

 

These are measurements, brand new speakers VS the same speaker after 100 hours of playing:

 

 

Next to no difference.

 

As I have new speakers arriving arriving pretty soon (JBL M2), I'll take measurements when I first set them up, then after a couple days. I can pretty much guarantee that nothing will change.

[Bombastinator]

It sounds to me like 4 different words are needed. Burn in for vacuum tubes, Quality control testing for transistor electronics, I don’t know what for electric guitars, and for headphones neuro audio reprogramming maybe?  Marketers won’t like that last one.  

[Guest]

Most thermal pastes don't need a burn in time.

However the infamous AS-5 thermal paste requires around 200 hours of thermal "cycles" to completely set up.

Almost all other pastes that do not require a burn in time will be at best efficiency within 48 hours depending on clamping force and viscosity.

 

Burn in for audio components? Never heard of it. 

 

I have heard of "tubes" sounding better on my old mans twin reverb. But that's not really a "burn in" I would consider using with audio equipment. 

Like women, the tubes age like fine wine. 

[Guest]

u

 

[HumdrumPenguin]

That's debatable. I'm a believer, but many will attribute it to you just getting used to the sound of a given speaker/headphone over time. Every time I get new cans, I normally listen to it for about 1 to 2 hours, then I leave it aside burning in with regular music (no pink noise or whatnot). Then I listen to it again 30+ hours later, and I'd say I hear a difference every single time. There's no guarantee because I don't have to unities to compare side by side.

[CTR640]

6 minutes ago, Benji said:

Well, that's a rather "esoteric" topic because it is mostly based on someones beliefs. As someone has already said in the form of a picture, burn-in on speaker drivers itself may have an eeeever so slightly measurable effect due to the softening of the materials like the rubber on the speaker surroundings or the evaporation of some chemicals used in the factory during manufacturing, but that are basically inaudible. But what in my opinion really is purely snake oil as it doesn't affect anything that is even remotely in the hearing range is speaker cable burn-in which you'll see on very expensive (mid-five-digit prices for three-foot) cables. They claim that hundreds or even thousands of hours of burn-in on cables "perfectly re-arranges the ions/atoms/whatever" of the cables materials somehow contributes to a better listening experience. These burn-in methods apparently do make a measurable difference - but in the GHz range, not in the actually audible range, so it makes literally no difference in speaker cables. And yes, these outrageous prices and over-the-top marketing claims are things that I have seen with my very own eyes, I didn't make that up.

Indeed, we have seen such outrageous prices too. Like in the range of £54K? Totally ridicolous...

 

Wether burn-in is real or not, I have no idea but my brain has been adjusted to 4 of my most favorite headphones anyway.

I have the Beyerdynamic T5p.2 and when I used it right out of the box, the treble was pretty tight and the bass was a bit weak, it is there but weak. Later, the more I use it, the better it sounds and the bass has become really nice.

[Samfisher]

On 6/19/2020 at 9:13 AM, ShrimpBrime said:

Most thermal pastes don't need a burn in time.

However the infamous AS-5 thermal paste requires around 200 hours of thermal "cycles" to completely set up.

Almost all other pastes that do not require a burn in time will be at best efficiency within 48 hours depending on clamping force and viscosity.

 

Burn in for audio components? Never heard of it. 

 

I have heard of "tubes" sounding better on my old mans twin reverb. But that's not really a "burn in" I would consider using with audio equipment. 

Like women, the tubes age like fine wine. 

For thermal paste we use curing, like curing leather.  A non-curing paste keeps it's properties for the majority of it's lifetime, doesn't get hard or dry out etc.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Samfisher said:

For thermal paste we use curing, like curing leather.  A non-curing paste keeps it's properties for the majority of it's lifetime, doesn't get hard or dry out etc.

Yes the term curing is used, but would better pertain to a thermal adhesive in my opinion. 

As far back as I can remember a burn in was referred to heat cycles for a certain amount of time in hours.

 

Its just a word party after this point.

[ShearMe]

Burn in is measurable.

 

Can human ears hear that difference? Probably not.

 

Can a human brain store the pre-burn in audio and accurately compare it to the post-burn in sound? F to the no.

[chen57]

I think burn-in is real to some extent but like people said before the burn-in effect that we feel is mostly our ears getting used to the different sound

[Derkoli]

Quick update:

 

Got my JBL M2's setup, did some measurements, then left them to run for 1 night at 103dB of pink noise, with one at 0 degrees phase, and the other at 180 degrees phase, so they cancelled each other, SPL measured outside my listening room with the door shut was 25dB~, so very similar SPL to general background noise at night. Then did a full days listening, and repeated the night at 103dB.

 

Source used: REW on Windows 10 as pink noise generator + Measurement software, Chord DAVE DAC, 2x Crown I-Tech 5000HD power amplifiers running a DSP crossover.

 

Original measurement: (No room correction, No smoothing, Measurements done with log sweep from 5Hz -> 24,000 Hz @ 2M distance)

 

 

 

Measurement after 1 day + 2 nights at 103dB: (No room correction, No smoothing, Measurements done with log sweep from 5Hz -> 24,000Hz @ 2M distance)

 

 

Overall, very minimal change, considering the good workout they got.

 

I noticed no difference between the first listening session and days later.

 

 

 

The measurement data differences may come from factors such as:

 

Effects of "burn in".

 

Room temperature.

 

Background noise causing comb filtering at certain frequencies.

 

Room humidity.

 

 

 

Overall, not surprised there isn't a huge difference. The woofers did feel slightly looser after a couple days though, Not really surprising considering the LF transducer has pretty hefty suspension:

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Derkoli
Minor changes