Linus finally seems to be taking the PS5's SSD (and SSDs on next -gen consoles) seriously

[jasonj2232]

54 minutes ago, AntiTrust said:

hey welcome to the forum and thanks for your post, 

 

kind of surprised they didnt just add more ram so you could load more resources onto the ram instead of jumping up directly to SSD storage. Seeing as 16gb or RAM is becoming very standard and cheaper, wouldn't it make sense to make more ram hungry games instead of relying on supplying ram faster? 

Both Sony and Microsoft are using GDDR6 which is quite expensive and also has more demand than NAND flash. Besides, with a SSD the amount of data you need to hold in RAM is less so RAM utilisation is actually less. 

[Bombastinator]

32 minutes ago, jasonj2232 said:

What? None of what you said made any sense. 

Think of it like someone speaking to one person while looking another hard in the eye when they did it.   It’s a common thing with public “international messages” between governments. They’re issued in the direction of the foreign nation, but the real recipient is generally the home town voter.

 

I had a roommate in college who’s father was a professional diplomat and thus grew up literally all over the world during the Cold War.  He said once that if you were living in the western bloc the western politicians made sense but the eastern ones sounded crazy.  If you were living I. The eastern bloc the eastern politicians made sense but the western ones were crazy.  If you were living in the third world though they both sounded crazy.  Neither the East nor the west cared what the third world thought.  The result was they were the only ones with a decent view.

 

One of my tenants worked US navy intel during desert storm.  When he wanted truth about what was actually going on he read Canadian news.  Not about Canada.  Canada was just like the US when talking about things it cared about.  It didn’t really care about Afghanistan though so it had the best news about Afghanistan.  Stuff coming out of both the US and Afghanistan was crap.

[Bombastinator]

20 minutes ago, jasonj2232 said:

I can guarantee that the PS5 won't be more than 500 freedom bucks. Even if it is, good luck building a PC as capable as it at 600 USD. You can't, consoles cannot be beaten when it comes to price. 

True, for hardware price alone anyway.  If they could no one would buy them because they’re less capable.  It’s when total cost of both hardware and games and peripherals is compared that pc start to inch ahead. 

[Bombastinator]

20 minutes ago, jasonj2232 said:

Both Sony and Microsoft are using GDDR6 which is quite expensive and also has more demand than NAND flash. Besides, with a SSD the amount of data you need to hold in RAM is less so RAM utilisation is actually less. 

Now it’s my turn to say “that doesn’t make any sense” with a fast enough storage medium you can use it instead of ram space.  A sort of swap system.  Not the same though.

[3rrant]

7 hours ago, iBabySlapper said:

You know, I think the devs being ignored by a lot of people when they have (allegedly) revolutionary tech on their hands, is at minimum partially self-inflicted. The whole industry (I know most industries do this, not just tech and gaming) tries desperately to hype some new thing and most of the time it falls flat on it's face, eats shit, dies in an open sewer, and is forgotten before too long.

 

We'll just have to wait and see if this advanced storage technology is actually worth the silicon it's made of.

Sadly true. Marketing has taken over everywhere.

 

On the same note Linus got kinda roasted by Tim on the PS5 ssd asking him on twitter which was pretty rude lol but at the same time true, as everything that needex to be explained was already in Cerny's talk to begin with which is what really upsetted me on how LMG handled this whole thing.

[Mooshi]

It's easy not to get hyped at consoles getting something PCs had avaliable for a decade.

 

 

[RasmusDC]

seriously it seems a bit far fetched with Sony using so much energy on SSD speeds to be honest, if you are using that much energy on such a small part of the console, then you have already lost, since Xbox has the advantage on reel speed calculation wise.

 

and seriously what is 5GB/Sec really going to give you, as all SSD users know yes the jump from a mechanical is big, not because of read/write speeds but because of seek times being NS instead of MS, since mostly you are using time on finding the block you need to read..

 

and NVME today is not that much faster than a good 550/550MB/sec speed, surely consoles has the advantage that you know all users has the same hardware (well the Pro label and the X made that a bit difficult). so you can optimize game for it. but the 5.5GB/sec was just PS5 using PCI 4.0 bandwidth, which is normal today on all new platforms..

 

So that is for me not really interesting, and it is fun that is the only fact that consoles are trying to sell them selves as a better platform than pc on.

 

Consoles will be way slower, they are designed at a cost, but having the same hardware platform to develop too, will give game developers something to work with that makes it seem great.

 

and it is always nice when the console development moves a step, since many pc games today really don´t use the PC correctly since it is dumbed down for the consoles, so what we get is the console graphics, with maybe a bit of higher textures, higher FPS and Raytracing...

 

my hope is just that 4K will be 60hz, since i feel games like Horizon is unplayable at 30fps as a racing game, when you have tried it on pc at 144.

 

60hz should be a DEMAND, it was in the older nintendo days.

 

if it gets the power of a 5700xt but with raytracing, then i think it will be a DAMN good console, since with optimization of games 4K stable 60fps should be attainable, since you know the hardware.

[Bombastinator]

12 minutes ago, RasmusDC said:

seriously it seems a bit far fetched with Sony using so much energy on SSD speeds to be honest, if you are using that much energy on such a small part of the console, then you have already lost, since Xbox has the advantage on reel speed calculation wise.

 

and seriously what is 5GB/Sec really going to give you, as all SSD users know yes the jump from a mechanical is big, not because of read/write speeds but because of seek times being NS instead of MS, since mostly you are using time on finding the block you need to read..

 

and NVME today is not that much faster than a good 550/550MB/sec speed, surely consoles has the advantage that you know all users has the same hardware (well the Pro label and the X made that a bit difficult). so you can optimize game for it. but the 5.5GB/sec was just PS5 using PCI 4.0 bandwidth, which is normal today on all new platforms..

 

So that is for me not really interesting, and it is fun that is the only fact that consoles are trying to sell them selves as a better platform than pc on.

 

Consoles will be way slower, they are designed at a cost, but having the same hardware platform to develop too, will give game developers something to work with that makes it seem great.

 

and it is always nice when the console development moves a step, since many pc games today really don´t use the PC correctly since it is dumbed down for the consoles, so what we get is the console graphics, with maybe a bit of higher textures, higher FPS and Raytracing...

 

my hope is just that 4K will be 60hz, since i feel games like Horizon is unplayable at 30fps as a racing game, when you have tried it on pc at 144.

 

60hz should be a DEMAND, it was in the older nintendo days.

 

if it gets the power of a 5700xt but with raytracing, then i think it will be a DAMN good console, since with optimization of games 4K stable 60fps should be attainable, since you know the hardware.

The consoles will come out.  Software devs will take advantage or not if what is available, and we shall see what we shall see. 
 

As for gpu power, I get the impression it’s MORE than a 5700xt then with raytracing on top.  Again, time will tell. 

[3rrant]

1 hour ago, Mooshi said:

It's easy not to get hyped at consoles getting something PCs had avaliable for a decade.

 

 

Please find me a computer with a dedicated compression-decompression unit on the system that does not rely on the CPU

And GPU scrubbers for the memory

And I/O controller directly on the SSD complex die, and not inside the main silicon chip

...

 

Stop spreading misinformation. Nobody was talking about the SSD bandwidth comparison in the presentation. There are higher bandwidth SSDs avaiable on PC, yes. That's not the freakin point. There's no SSD on PC which ALSO has these other components, and that's why it's interesting and needs to be studied unless you want to remain an ignorant pcmasterracer.

[Lord Vile]

11 hours ago, Not Wills said:

a game like gta takes ages on a hdd but not to long on a ssd, theres tons of videos doing gaming speed on hdds, sata ssds and nvme ones. and we can proberly say the nvme ssd is like the ps5 as we can see why the ps5 people are so excited.

It’s not just NVME though it’s how everything is built around the SSD which supposedly makes it insanely fast in terms of load times. 

[spycrash]

This is all being misunderstood.  The tech in PS5 is different. 

 

Calling it SSD invites comparisons to what the PC has, along with the experiences from said users (read above) which dont apply at all to this tech.  

 

Yes they both use nand but that's not whats "new" about what ps5 brings to the table.  Watch the Cerny video before commenting "Pc has it since forever"  or "Difference will be milliseconds between my ssd and ps5"

[Bombastinator]

31 minutes ago, spycrash said:

This is all being misunderstood.  The tech in PS5 is different. 

 

Calling it SSD invites comparisons to what the PC has, along with the experiences from said users (read above) which dont apply at all to this tech.  

 

Yes they both use nand but that's not whats "new" about what ps5 brings to the table.  Watch the Cerny video before commenting "Pc has it since forever"  or "Difference will be milliseconds between my ssd and ps5"

All of everything right now is either predictions or hype.  There are engineers who built it who know what it CAN do, but if game developers don’t do those things it doesn’t matter.  History is full of special systems that were never utilized. It is sounding like it is possible it may make z390/z490/b450 obsolete.  Only May though. Possibly b550/x570 too, but AMD built both, and it built b550/x570 after the Sony storage system was designed.  Z490 was also built after it was designed but it is almost exactly the same as z390 I/o wise.  So either intel doesn’t know or didn’t care.

[jasonj2232]

10 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Think of it like someone speaking to one person while looking another hard in the eye when they did it.   It’s a common thing with public “international messages” between governments. They’re issued in the direction of the foreign nation, but the real recipient is generally the home town voter.

 

I had a roommate in college who’s father was a professional diplomat and thus grew up literally all over the world during the Cold War.  He said once that if you were living in the western bloc the western politicians made sense but the eastern ones sounded crazy.  If you were living I. The eastern bloc the eastern politicians made sense but the western ones were crazy.  If you were living in the third world though they both sounded crazy.  Neither the East nor the west cared what the third world thought.  The result was they were the only ones with a decent view.

 

One of my tenants worked US navy intel during desert storm.  When he wanted truth about what was actually going on he read Canadian news.  Not about Canada.  Canada was just like the US when talking about things it cared about.  It didn’t really care about Afghanistan though so it had the best news about Afghanistan.  Stuff coming out of both the US and Afghanistan was crap.

Forgive me but I still don't get it. Are you basically saying that both PlayStation and Sony are releasing information or marketing features in response to what the other brand is doing? Like, Xbox doesn't have the fastest SSD so Sony is marketing the SSD?

[jasonj2232]

10 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

True, for hardware price alone anyway.  If they could no one would buy them because they’re less capable.  It’s when total cost of both hardware and games and peripherals is compared that pc start to inch ahead. 

Exactly, well kinda. It depends on the games you play tbh. I don't play any multiplayer games on console so I don't subscribe the PS+/XBL Gold, so in my experience it has been that after an extended period of ownership the cost of both PC Gaming and Console gaming comes out to be the same. PCs require a high investment upfront and have a lower cost of running while Consoles require a low investment upfront but have a higher than PC cost of running.

[jasonj2232]

10 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Now it’s my turn to say “that doesn’t make any sense” with a fast enough storage medium you can use it instead of ram space.  A sort of swap system.  Not the same though.

Which is what Sony and Microsoft are doing?

[jasonj2232]

9 hours ago, 3rrant said:

Sadly true. Marketing has taken over everywhere.

 

On the same note Linus got kinda roasted by Tim on the PS5 ssd asking him on twitter which was pretty rude lol but at the same time true, as everything that needex to be explained was already in Cerny's talk to begin with which is what really upsetted me on how LMG handled this whole thing.

It wasn't really rude, just kinda 'cold-shoulder' response. What was rude was Linus basically calling Tim a liar and an idiot on the WAN show. He lost any chance of a collaboration with Tim or Sony doing that and judging by his reply to Tim's response he knows it.

 

I wish people would stop giving him shit on Twitter though, like yeah he made a dumb mistake but he is owning up to it and rectifying it. That's a great thing and something I like about Linus, if he gets called out on something he doesn't just double down, he'll reconsider and re-evaluate his opinions and then respond.

[Bombastinator]

10 minutes ago, jasonj2232 said:

Forgive me but I still don't get it. Are you basically saying that both PlayStation and Sony are releasing information or marketing features in response to what the other brand is doing? Like, Xbox doesn't have the fastest SSD so Sony is marketing the SSD?

Sony and PlayStation are the same thing, but that’s one possibility.  I’m not sure what exactly is going on.  Mostly I just think both companies are more concerned with each other than they are with the customer.  This is the way dualopoly works.   If there was a third manufacturer it might be different but there isn’t.   If it was a monopoly the customer would be pure cattle. Dualopoly used to be illegal.  This is why.

[jasonj2232]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Sony and PlayStation are the same thing, but that’s one possibility.  I’m not sure what exactly is going on.  Mostly I just think both companies are more concerned with each other than they are with the customer.  This is the way dualopoly works.   If there was a third manufacturer it might be different but there isn’t.   If it was a monopoly the customer would be pure cattle. Dualopoly used to be illegal.  This is why.

Shucks, I meant to write Playstation and Xbox, messed up there.

 

I don't think it's a duopoly. If you want to play games you're not restricted to just Xbox and Playstation. You have PCs and the Switch and Mobile as well and with the launch of game streaming services (yes they aren't great now but as the tech matures they'll get good) you can pretty much play the games you want anywhere and on anything.

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, jasonj2232 said:

Which is what Sony and Microsoft are doing?

It appears to be what Sony is claiming it can do.  Microsoft to a lesser extent.  What matters though is not so much the capacity of the systems but what game developers wind up doing.   If game developers write a lot of stuff that won’t play on four core, or won’t play on six core, or won’t play without special storage stuff the systems that don’t have the tools will have to acquire them somehow or give up gaming.  Developers have to do it though.

[jasonj2232]

6 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

It’s not just NVME though it’s how everything is built around the SSD which supposedly makes it insanely fast in terms of load times. 

It's not even using NVME though, they've built their own protocol. This is why for expansion when you buy a m.2 NVME drive it'll need to be one that is higher speed than the PS5's SSD (7 or 8 GBps iirc, basically the maximum speed a Gen 4 x4 connection can achieve). I feel like a lot of people just read the specs on a sheet without actually understanding anything. These people are going to have egg on their faces when the consoles come out.

[jasonj2232]

1 hour ago, spycrash said:

This is all being misunderstood.  The tech in PS5 is different. 

 

Calling it SSD invites comparisons to what the PC has, along with the experiences from said users (read above) which dont apply at all to this tech.  

 

Yes they both use nand but that's not whats "new" about what ps5 brings to the table.  Watch the Cerny video before commenting "Pc has it since forever"  or "Difference will be milliseconds between my ssd and ps5"

It is a SSD by definition but yeah I get the sentiment. People keep comparing it to PC hardware and miss a whole lot of context in that comparison.

[jasonj2232]

5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

It appears to be what Sony is claiming it can do.  Microsoft to a lesser extent.  What matters though is not so much the capacity of the systems but what game developers wind up doing.   If game developers write a lot of stuff that won’t play on four core, or won’t play on six core, or won’t play without special storage stuff the systems that don’t have the tools will have to acquire them somehow or give up gaming.  Developers have to do it though.

Yeah Microsoft so far has only focused on faster loading times.

 

Most developers have always taken full advantage of the consoles so it's not something I'm worried about.

[Bombastinator]

12 minutes ago, jasonj2232 said:

Shucks, I meant to write Playstation and Xbox, messed up there.

 

I don't think it's a duopoly. If you want to play games you're not restricted to just Xbox and Playstation. You have PCs and the Switch and Mobile as well and with the launch of game streaming services (yes they aren't great now but as the tech matures they'll get good) you can pretty much play the games you want anywhere and on anything.

Hehe.  That’s the argument the dualopolists use alright.  Sega just came out with a “console”. It’s four inches across.  They’re trying. 

 There’s a term: “market dominance” The market is dominated by Sony and Microsoft with Sony in the lead.  Microsoft is big enough to challenge them. Barely. No one else is.  Game streaming could become a thing.  There’s another one: Nvidia vs Google. And a third accounted market: steam, followed by epic and GoG.

 

market segments and market dominance are not even remotely new things.  All this crap went down in the late 19th century.  The end game was the trust system, which was broken up and has been sort of rebuilding itself around the few remaining safety valves inserted in the early 20th century.  They’ve already closed off a few of them.

[jasonj2232]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Hehe.  That’s the argument the dualopolists use alright.  Sega just came out with a “console”. It’s four inches across.  They’re trying. 

 There’s a term: “market dominance” The market is dominated by Sony and Microsoft with Sony in the lead.  Microsoft is big enough to challenge them.  No one else is.

For me it's whether I'm only limited to Sony or Microsoft if I want to play AAA or AA games. Like, if I want to play Doom 2016 and I can only play it only on Xbox or Playstation then it's a duopoly. I can play Doom on Switch and PC, and through Stadia I can play it basically anywhere, so yeah I don't see it as a duopoly.

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, jasonj2232 said:

For me it's whether I'm only limited to Sony or Microsoft if I want to play AAA or AA games. Like, if I want to play Doom 2016 and I can only play it only on Xbox or Playstation then it's a duopoly. I can play Doom on Switch and PC, and through Stadia I can play it basically anywhere, so yeah I don't see it as a duopoly.

Exactly.  AAA games.  A  Market segment.  you want to play platformers from the 80’s or the one or two disrupters you can.  “There exists an edge case” is not an argument for bulk action.  It only works for 100% stuff.