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Wuhan Plasma Jets

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

The issue here in current jet engines are an established technology with a proven track record.

 

It was Jeremy Clarkson who said "If you walked into a government safety panel today and suggested that everyone on earth should drive around in a metal box that does 150mph and that contains another box filled with a highly flammable liquid to use as a fuel you'd be laughed out of the room".

 

Convincing safety boards its safe will be a hard sell, convincing the industry to change will be even harder but convincing passengers these things aren't going to fall from the sky will be nigh on impossible.

 

Also to quote Mr Clarkson, "Electric engines are little more than a transfer of the climate change problem from the roads to the power stations as the vast majority of the electricity we generate still comes from burning fossil fuels".

Petrol/gas in cars really isn't that flammable. That's a BS myth propagated by Hollywood. You can literally soak a burning match into gasoline and it won't light it on fire. You can shoot gas tanks and it won't light on fire. Even with a tracer round you have to be lucky to hit it above the fuel where vapor is. Especially not if it's cold as there will be less fuel vapor around. And if it does start burning, you can extingusih it by cooling it or removing oxygen. When li-ion pack starts bursting flames you can just say goodbye to your car and there is no point in even calling fire department as they can't do anything except wait till the thing burns out on its own (li-ion cells are self sustaining and removing oxygen does nothing as well as cooling them by making them wet does nothing. Opposite, if you manage to make them wet inside, they can actually go out even more violently. They can only secure the area and that's it.

 

I had a presentation of fuel cells back in high school and that shit was the best thing possible and it never took off because li-ion cells became so cheap everyone rushed with them. And not even hydrogen fuel cells because hydrogen is hard to store, expensive to manufacture and really, the most of hydrogen that we do produce is actually obtained from fossil fuels. I'm talking ethanol/methanol fuel cells which do have some limitations, but with some effort I'm sure we could refine them. Best thing of alcohols is they are renewable source and are pretty much carbon neutral since they come from plants, they are liquid that could easily replace petrol in gas stations without any modifications to the supply chain and drivetrain would still be electric motor. So, we'd really be using the best possible options, best autonomy and range, super fast refueling without any stupid special chargers and within existing infrastructure. I guess EV lobby was too strong for batteries, just like petrol cars were back in the early days of cars where petrol won.

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14 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

It’s still an energy density issue.  Current energy density of electric systems don’t even really support prop aircraft.  Not sure what the energy density of hydrogen systems are but it isn’t a whole ton better.  Current systems for working out military non fossil fuel aircraft involve synthetic fuel which hydrogen systems usually are in some way.  Either way it is sliced this system wants higher energy density than is currently available in batteries for use in aircraft.    Not sure that matters for purposes of research.

A challenge indeed, but we do need to be looking at fossil fuel alternatives, it will run out.

 

just for the record Hydrogen has 33.33KWh/litre while Petrol and diesel 12KWh/litre. There are hurdles to overcome in generating hydrogen and generating electricity from it however.

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7 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

Can we just stick to the tech and not make it an excuse to take cheap shots at china?

It’s not a cheap shot.

5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Wouldn’t need to be. It’s too simple.  This is “stick a plasma cutter in a tube and see what can be done”.

 

Not impossible of course.  China has a massive rep for stealing research rather than simply duplicating it. This is pretty basic stuff though. 

You’re probably right. Given the whole jet part is evidently unfounded, they haven’t done as much as the media we saw in OP would suggest. But that’s how media goes.

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7 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

A challenge indeed, but we do need to be looking at fossil fuel alternatives, it will run out.

 

just for the record Hydrogen has 33.33KWh/litre while Petrol and diesel 12KWh/litre. There are hurdles to overcome in generating hydrogen and generating electricity from it however.

That’s not they system though that’s just the fuel.  You need the fuel container and the motor as well.  If measuring weights pure electricity the out and out winner.  e=mcWOW!.  It’s the container that is the bugbear.  They have a massive advantage in motor though which offsets that.  Fossil fuel only needs a metal shell container, but the motor needed is massively more complicated.  Heaviest single part of a vehicle generally, whereas with liion electricity it’s the battery pack.  Hydrogen is different yet. The container is difficult because hydrogen is such a small molecule it will just go right through things, and it needs to be either converted to electricity and use an electric motor, or mixed with oxygen and burned in a fossil fuel engine.

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12 minutes ago, Nicholatian said:

It’s not a cheap shot.

You’re probably right. Given the whole jet part is evidently unfounded, they haven’t done as much as the media we saw in OP would suggest. But that’s how media goes.

I think they’ve likely done that much and possibly more.  It didn’t seem to be misleading unless you only partially listen and come to inaccurate conclusions about what was said.
 

It was arguably kind of a cheap shot if coming from a country currently trying to make hay.  Coming from the USA for example it could very well be a right wing cheap shot designed to support the party in power.  Dovetails with the other arguable cheap shot about “media” that was even less accurate in this case.

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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29 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

It was arguably kind of a cheap shot if coming from a country currently trying to make hay.  Coming from the USA for example it could very well be a right wing cheap shot designed to support the party in power.  Dovetails with the other arguable cheap shot about “media” that was even less accurate in this case.

Arguable seems like a key term here.

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1 hour ago, Phill104 said:

A challenge indeed, but we do need to be looking at fossil fuel alternatives, it will run out.

 

just for the record Hydrogen has 33.33KWh/litre while Petrol and diesel 12KWh/litre. There are hurdles to overcome in generating hydrogen and generating electricity from it however.

You can't just look at the values and call it a day. Gasoline can be stored in a thin plastic tank that weighs next to nothing (and it's done at atmospheric pressure). You need to store just few kilograms of liquified hydrogen in massive super thick and super heavy cannisters under massive pressure. You can check thunderf00t's Youtube channel where he talks about energy density and hydrogen storage in particular. Hydrogen on paper is the shit, but storing any usable amount of it is such a problem it'll never be commercially usable.

Edited by RejZoR
Added some details.

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4 minutes ago, Nicholatian said:

Arguable seems like a key term here.

True.  I don’t know you or your location or your motivation.  So arguable.  If for example a right winger from the USA arguable is more like “probable”.  I’d say, a british right winger it gets more complicated for me as I don’t know as much what goes on there so more arguable.  If a Chinese National it goes even more wonky.

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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4 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

You can't just look at the values and call it a day. Gasoline can be stored in a thin plastic tank that weighs next to nothing. You need to store just few kilograms of liquified hydrogen in massive super thick and super heavy cannisters. You can check thunderf00t's Youtube channel where he talks about energy density and hydrogen storage in particular. Hydrogen on paper is the shit, but storing any usable amount of it is such a problem it'll never be commercially usable.

A few ships are running on Hydrogen now, will be interesting to see how that progresses. Here in the UK the hydrogen busses have been working well but are just too expensive to buy, same goes for cars like the Mirai or however you spell it. 
 

The key point is, we need to find a future for the end of fossil fuel. Any technology that can give propulsion such as this needs to be researched, and moreover how to power it. As a propulsion system this shows promise, other research is desperately going on in energy production.
 

As for hydrogen, much of the industry is investing in research for large vehicles, it is currently not really very good in small ones like the aforementioned Toyota and the Honda. Ford have invested billions in it but seemingly have produced nothing.

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15 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

You can't just look at the values and call it a day. Gasoline can be stored in a thin plastic tank that weighs next to nothing (and it's done at atmospheric pressure). You need to store just few kilograms of liquified hydrogen in massive super thick and super heavy cannisters under massive pressure. You can check thunderf00t's Youtube channel where he talks about energy density and hydrogen storage in particular. Hydrogen on paper is the shit, but storing any usable amount of it is such a problem it'll never be commercially usable.

Hydrogen vs electricity are surprisingly close when all the math is worked out.  So close that the choice between them rests mostly on infrastructure build out.  The USA goes electric because too much infrastructure would be needed and the population is too sparse.  The EU goes electric too because while they do have the population density they also have a better electrical grid than the US so the infrastructure is practically totally in place.  Japan goes hydrogen because they have even more population density and their electrical grid is terrible.   So both technologies are being developed concurrently.  Each country is going to have to do the math for their particular situation.  Australia for example I have no idea as to the answer to.  It’s sparsely and unevenly populated with a good electrical grid.  They’re close to japan physically though.  My suspicion is electric because of the sheer distances but I really don’t know.

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

True.  I don’t know you or your location or your motivation.  So arguable.  If for example a right winger from the USA arguable is more like “probable”.  I’d say, a british right winger it gets more complicated for me as I don’t know as much what goes on there so more arguable.  If a Chinese National it goes even more wonky.

I stopped putting people into labelled buckets years ago.

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14 minutes ago, Nicholatian said:

I stopped putting people into labelled buckets years ago.

That’s nice.  Totally non topical, and possibly untrue, but nice.  I assume this is some sort of veiled accusation that I do.  Kind of a left field comment really.-

 

The bucket system can get inaccurate because it allows for only one grouping.  frequently more than one bucket is required for a given person and the buckets tend to morph without warning.  Buckets are not what happened here.  

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1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Buckets are not what happened here.  

Verily. It was more your understanding than a recollection of facts. There’s nothing wrong with that.

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41 minutes ago, Nicholatian said:

Verily. It was more your understanding than a recollection of facts. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Unfortunately, it would be quite hard to turn a bucket into a suitable propulsion system for an aircraft. 

 

The good thing about innovation wherever it is in the world, is it spreads knowledge and ideas.  The more we share knowledge the better we become.

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20 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

Unfortunately, it would be quite hard to turn a bucket into a suitable propulsion system for an aircraft. 

 

The good thing about innovation wherever it is in the world, is it spreads knowledge and ideas.  The more we share knowledge the better we become.

So yes.

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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2 hours ago, Phill104 said:

A few ships are running on Hydrogen now, will be interesting to see how that progresses. Here in the UK the hydrogen busses have been working well but are just too expensive to buy, same goes for cars like the Mirai or however you spell it. 
 

The key point is, we need to find a future for the end of fossil fuel. Any technology that can give propulsion such as this needs to be researched, and moreover how to power it. As a propulsion system this shows promise, other research is desperately going on in energy production.
 

As for hydrogen, much of the industry is investing in research for large vehicles, it is currently not really very good in small ones like the aforementioned Toyota and the Honda. Ford have invested billions in it but seemingly have produced nothing.

You can't compare ships with airplanes lol. You can literally make ships out of concrete and they'll float. Aircraft carriers have their own nuclear reactors and they can float on seas for so long, in the end it's not a problem of ship fuel but fuel for humans onboard (food). Airplanes on the other hand are made of aluminium and titanium. One of lightest metals around. For obvious reasons, those 380 ton 747's are already stupid heavy as is and they are powered by one of most energy dense fuels in existence known to us.

2 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Hydrogen vs electricity are surprisingly close when all the math is worked out.  So close that the choice between them rests mostly on infrastructure build out.  The USA goes electric because too much infrastructure would be needed and the population is too sparse.  The EU goes electric too because while they do have the population density they also have a better electrical grid than the US so the infrastructure is practically totally in place.  Japan goes hydrogen because they have even more population density and their electrical grid is terrible.   So both technologies are being developed concurrently.  Each country is going to have to do the math for their particular situation.  Australia for example I have no idea as to the answer to.  It’s sparsely and unevenly populated with a good electrical grid.  They’re close to japan physically though.  My suspicion is electric because of the sheer distances but I really don’t know.

Problem with hydrogen is storage and supply chain. It's also incredibly volatile. Also, you can't really store a lot of it in those thick bulky heavy canisters.

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2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

You can't compare ships with airplanes lol. You can literally make ships out of concrete and they'll float. Aircraft carriers have their own nuclear reactors and they can float on seas for so long, in the end it's not a problem of ship fuel but fuel for humans onboard (food). Airplanes on the other hand are made of aluminium and titanium. One of lightest metals around. For obvious reasons, those 380 ton 747's are already stupid heavy as is and they are powered by one of most energy dense fuels in existence known to us.

Problem with hydrogen is storage and supply chain. It's also incredibly volatile. Also, you can't really store a lot of it in those thick bulky heavy canisters.

Actually you can store it. It is also not as dangerous as many think. Usually when a pressurised tank leaks the hydrogen is very quickly dissipated into the atmosphere, you cannot say that about petrol. The Sainsbury’s near where I work has hydrogen pumps for cars and busses at the petrol station. Capacity wise, the Moirai has a 5kg capacity hydrogen tank that sits under the rear seat, it is smaller than the normal petrol tank in the similar Prius, and does 500km.

 

As I said, this is about the propulsion method, and one that looks quite exciting. How we get the energy to power it has yet to be seen, this is experimental tech and something to look for in the future. It will probably be just one of many propulsion ideas to come in the race towards the future of flight. 

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43 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

Actually you can store it. It is also not as dangerous as many think. Usually when a pressurised tank leaks the hydrogen is very quickly dissipated into the atmosphere, you cannot say that about petrol. The Sainsbury’s near where I work has hydrogen pumps for cars and busses at the petrol station. Capacity wise, the Moirai has a 5kg capacity hydrogen tank that sits under the rear seat, it is smaller than the normal petrol tank in the similar Prius, and does 500km.

 

As I said, this is about the propulsion method, and one that looks quite exciting. How we get the energy to power it has yet to be seen, this is experimental tech and something to look for in the future. It will probably be just one of many propulsion ideas to come in the race towards the future of flight. 

Heh.

“When”

like it can be stopped.  

 

the biggest issue with hydrogen is it can’t even be stored as h2 for any length of time.  The molecule is too small.  It literally passes through metal.

 

Hydrogen is somewhat more efficient than electricity mostly in speed of recharge, but requires more infrastructure.  Neither one is a magic bullet.  Or even a really good bullet.  They’re what we have to shoot though.

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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14 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Heh.

“When”

like it can be stopped.  

 

the biggest issue with hydrogen is it can’t even be stored as h2 for any length of time.  The molecule is too small.  It literally passes through metal.

 

Hydrogen is somewhat more efficient than electricity mostly in speed of recharge, but requires more infrastructure.  Neither one is a magic bullet.  Or even a really good bullet.  They’re what we have to shoot though.

Until we all get a Mr Fusion there are few other options.

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6 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

Until we all get a Mr Fusion there are few other options.

I would say none. 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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9 hours ago, RejZoR said:

You can't just look at the values and call it a day. Gasoline can be stored in a thin plastic tank that weighs next to nothing (and it's done at atmospheric pressure). You need to store just few kilograms of liquified hydrogen in massive super thick and super heavy cannisters under massive pressure. You can check thunderf00t's Youtube channel where he talks about energy density and hydrogen storage in particular. Hydrogen on paper is the shit, but storing any usable amount of it is such a problem it'll never be commercially usable.

 

I wouldn't take anything thunderfoot says seriously just as a matter of good caution. I remember getting several of his video's in my recommended list and all of them where well put together and mostly based on good science, but there was allways at least one bit that was flat out wrong and it tended to badly undermine his argument. Whilst i don't think it's remotely intentional on his part his videos often ended up for me coming off very much like the very well put together conspiracy theories he likes to go after in some of his videos.

 

it's why when i make my statements around here i always try to be clear about the limits of what i know. Because the stuff that trips you up isn't the stuff you know you don't know, it's the stuff you think you know and it turns out you don't know that gets you.

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Am I the only one who would rather take a boat to travel overseas, rather than fly?

 

I'm a bit wide in the shoulders, so planes are uncomfortable as hell to me. Then there's the noise, the smells, the overpriced-to-fucking-hell alcohol, and the fact that I can't vape or smoke.

 

I'll take a passenger berth on a cargo vessel before I fly overseas. I don't even like flying within the US. Too much of a hassle, too uncomfortable, I'd rather drive.

 

This is neat, if it can be used for shipping, but as for travelling, give me a car or a boat.

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18 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Am I the only one who would rather take a boat to travel overseas, rather than fly?

 

I'm a bit wide in the shoulders, so planes are uncomfortable as hell to me. Then there's the noise, the smells, the overpriced-to-fucking-hell alcohol, and the fact that I can't vape or smoke.

 

I'll take a passenger berth on a cargo vessel before I fly overseas. I don't even like flying within the US. Too much of a hassle, too uncomfortable, I'd rather drive.

 

This is neat, if it can be used for shipping, but as for travelling, give me a car or a boat.

I quit flying 10 years ago.  I was physically unable to fit in the seats.  These days if I can’t drive or take a train if I’ve got a choice I don’t go.

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

I quit flying 10 years ago.  I was physically unable to fit in the seats.  These days if I can’t drive or take a train if I’ve got a choice I don’t go.

I'm 5 foot 11in. and weigh 250lbs. And I hate flying because I'm just too wide physically, and wearing a size 13W US shoe size just means if I'm not in first class, I'm stuffed in like a sardine can.

 

In the last three months I've made two trips to Florida from my home state. 15 hour drive, roughly. Totally worth it. I can stop for decent food without breaking the bank, and I can vape. I'm a former 2 pack a day smoker so that's a huge bonus to me. Than and honestly I just hate the concept of flying. Too much lack of control and safety.

 

I don't give a damn what the statistics say, I have far more control and safety behind the wheel of a car than stuffed into a plane. A car crash going 60mph is far more survivable than a plane crash going a few hundred miles per hour. Statistics are a poor way of measuring this in my opinion.

Ketchup is better than mustard.

GUI is better than Command Line Interface.

Dubs are better than subs

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inb4 people start saying that the plasma jet is really just a focused beam of coronavirus and this is China's way to spread it😂

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