COVID-19 - READ THE RULES BEFORE REPLYING

[RonnieOP]

6 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

well you can have a beer together at a safe distance or over video chat

Or you can be isolated together and have a beer together.

 

Whats the difference between having a beer with your neighbor or having a beer with your room mate?

 

If you live in an apartment whats the difference between the wall the separates you and your room mate and the wall that separates you and your neighbor? 

 

If you both are isolating yourselves the additional risk is minimal. 

 

Now if your neighbor is going out everyday shaking hands and licking shopping carts that changes things.

[spartaman64]

Just now, RonnieOP said:

Or you can be isolated together and have a beer together.

 

Whats the difference between having a beer with your neighbor or having a beer with your room mate?

 

If you live in an apartment whats the difference between the wall the separates you and your room mate and the wall that separates you and your neighbor? 

 

If you both are isolating yourselves the additional risk is minimal. 

 

Now if your neighbor is going out everyday shaking hands and licking shopping carts that changes things.

because you have no choice but be in contact with your roommate while you do with your neighbor. your neighbor can survive a few weeks without you dont worry

[Master Disaster]

1 minute ago, RonnieOP said:

Or you can be isolated together and have a beer together.

 

Whats the difference between having a beer with your neighbor or having a beer with your room mate?

 

If you live in an apartment whats the difference between the wall the separates you and your room mate and the wall that separates you and your neighbor? 

 

If you both are isolating yourselves the additional risk is minimal. 

 

Now if your neighbor is going out everyday shaking hands and licking shopping carts that changes things.

Theres no difference, however one of them is clearly prohibited and the other is not.

[RonnieOP]

On 3/23/2020 at 11:40 PM, Master Disaster said:

Theres no difference, however one of them is clearly prohibited and the other is not.

I mean I dont know the laws in every area. but in my area theres nothing illegal about isolating yourself with your neighbor.

 

On 3/23/2020 at 11:38 PM, spartaman64 said:

because you have no choice but be in contact with your roommate while you do with your neighbor. your neighbor can survive a few weeks without you dont worry

I dont have to worry about my neighbor m talking in general.

 

Im around people 6 days a week. My neighbor knows better then to come to my house lol.

 

Im just saying you can mitigate additional risks. In fact in some communities it would be a good idea to rely on one another during these times.

 

 

 

[Master Disaster]

1 minute ago, RonnieOP said:

I mean I dont know the laws in every area. but in my area theres nothing illegal about isolating yourself with your neighbor.

Well here in the UK we have very clear definitions. While self isolating you are only allowed close contact with people who live in the same house as you. In fact it clearly states that neighbours and friends do not count as exemptions.

 

@spartaman64 put it in the best way, its people you have no choice but be around. If theres any choice involved then the answer should be no.

[RonnieOP]

Just now, Master Disaster said:

Well here in the UK we have very clear definitions. While self isolating you are only allowed close contact with people who live in the same house as you. In fact it clearly states that neighbours and friends do not count as exemptions.

 

@spartaman64 put it in the best way, its people you have no choice but be around. If theres any choice involved then the answer should be no.

Yea like I said, I cant speak for every area as it changes between cities let alone countries.

 

You should do what is legally asked of you and whatever makes you feel safe. Be smart about it and youll be fine.

 

 

 

 

[WkdPaul]

3 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

I mean I dont know the laws in every area. but in my area theres nothing illegal about isolating yourself with your neighbor.

I'll just to try and explain it in a different way, your neighbor is in lock down, like you, but if he comes around for a beer, what's to say he's not doing the same thing with another neighbor, that himself does it with another neighbor ... You can only be 100% certain about your own situation.

 

There could be a "chain", where you get infected because it went down from neighbors to neighbors thinking "meh, the other guy is stuck as much as I am, there's no risks!".

 

Not saying it WILL happen, bit it could, and people here are just trying to make sure you're safe.

[PhantomJaguarr]

Even my county leaders said if you feel overwhelmed take a break from watching the news for awhile.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, imreloadin said:

The politicians really know who butters their bread and they'll make sure they are taken care of first. Sadly that's not the people who elect them into office...

Yep. Poor fella got into office with feelings for the common man and stands up for the working class that already struggle. Now, he's jobless. 

 

Good share on that video man. Good to see another man stand up for those less fortunate (leaving the politics part out of it here.)

[RonnieOP]

1 minute ago, wkdpaul said:

I'll just to try and explain it in a different way, your neighbor is in lock down, like you, but if he comes around for a beer, what's to say he's not doing the same thing with another neighbor, that himself does it with another neighbor ... You can only be 100% certain about your own situation.

 

There could be a "chain", where you get infected because it went down from neighbors to neighbors thinking "meh, the other guy is stuck as much as I am, there's no risks!".

 

Not saying it WILL happen, bit it could, and people here are just trying to make sure you're safe.

Again. you should 100% evaluate the situation. You dont want to isolate yourself with someone whos going around hanging out with anyone.

 

For example My father in law and his brother live next to one another. They both have been isolated for a little over two weeks now, just them on the mountain. They visit eachother (its like a 20 foot walk lol) have a few beers, watch tv, etc.

 

They arent introducing much of an additional risk there. I mean if they wanted i guess one could just start living with the other, sleep on the couch or something. but is that really any safer then when one walks 20 feet down the yard and sleeps in his own bed?

[WkdPaul]

4 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Again. you should 100% evaluate the situation. You dont want to isolate yourself with someone whos going around hanging out with anyone.

*snip*

Then we agree! Glad it was just miscommunication

 

stay safe (and I mean it!)

Edited March 23, 2020 by wkdpaul

[nick name]

16 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

I'll just to try and explain it in a different way, your neighbor is in lock down, like you, but if he comes around for a beer, what's to say he's not doing the same thing with another neighbor, that himself does it with another neighbor ... You can only be 100% certain about your own situation.

 

There could be a "chain", where you get infected because it went down from neighbors to neighbors thinking "meh, the other guy is stuck as much as I am, there's no risks!".

 

Not saying it WILL happen, bit it could, and people here are just trying to make sure you're safe.

This also applies with herpes.  *sigh*

[RonnieOP]

3 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

Then we agree! Glad it was just miscommunication

 

stay safe (and I mean it!)

oh im not going to lie, i will be very very surprised if theres an outbreak in my area and i dont get it. Statistically I wont have to worry about death though.

 

Ive already sent the kids off and its just me the wife and the dog here until this is done with.

 

I got lucky with my restaurant being next to the fire department/police station. So I am staying open and they are eating here basically every day. And then I do deliveries for the hospital daily. 

 

The vast majority of the people I deal with are people who are in a profession where they are already at a high risk of getting it and cant avoid it.

 

I do have some random people come in and order and I just dont understand why they are taking the risk. And while I do feel bad if they get it and its through me. They are the ones putting themselves at that risk, not me.

 

 

 

 

[SpaceGhostC2C]

1 hour ago, Canoe said:

• There was one study that managed to mechanically create a SARS-CoV-2 aerosol, which still held viable viruses when they ended the experiment three hours later.
  • This means aerosols of SARS-CoV-2 are plausible, not that they are occurring.
  • There is no evidence that is happening with humans, as in creating aerosols when sneezing or coughing.
  • If they are rarely occurring, they certainly are NOT driving the pandemic, or there would be significantly higher R0 rates.

But how does it reach those surfaces it remains on then? Skin oil?

Also, I'm confused about

1 hour ago, Canoe said:

• • SARS-CoV-2 aerosols have NOT been detected in patient rooms, nor on the surfaces the fine droplets in aerosols would fall onto. (I.e., where coughing/sneezing patients are frequently doing so.)

and

1 hour ago, Canoe said:

• • SARS-CoV-2 has been found on surfaces in patient rooms that are within droplet range.

being true at the same time.

Maybe I'm not understanding what "aerosol" means as a technical term in this context?

 

[mr moose]

A financial crisis in and of itself does not increase the death rate, in fact it lowers it significantly.  The only noted increase in deaths as a result a financial crisis is suicide among the mentally ill.   Some reports to that effect:

 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/melaniehaiken/2014/06/12/more-than-10000-suicides-tied-to-economic-crisis-study-says/#22caa0fa7ae2

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/overview/impact-of-recessions/

https://fortune.com/2019/01/25/economic-downturn-mortality-rates/

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/576669311/hidden-brain-great-recession-deaths

 

 

 

[Master Disaster]

[atxcyclist]

It looks like some time tomorrow the city mayor will determine the time we go into "shelter in place". I'm a bit happy in a way because it'll get us closer to getting through it, but at the same time I have no clue what I'll do once I've exhausted what I can work on from home, both for monetary and "keeping busy" reasons.

[captain_to_fire]

 

[WkdPaul]

The province of Ontario is also on lock down

 

https://nationalpost.com/news/covid-19-ontario-and-quebec-order-non-essential-businesses-closed-after-spike-in-coronavirus-totals

[Praesi]

1 hour ago, captain_to_fire said:

 

Self drawn Pictures. The Source of all Evidence. Whats with the invected dot above the "BBQ"? He/She just vanished?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Praesi said:

Self drawn Pictures. The Source of all Evidence. Whats with the invected dot above the "BBQ"? He/She just vanished?

Example Death before infecting others?

[captain_to_fire]

5 minutes ago, Praesi said:

Self drawn Pictures. The Source of all Evidence. Whats with the invected dot above the "BBQ"? He/She just vanished?

Either the person infected passed away and got cremated or immediately buried.

[Praesi]

4 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Example Death before infecting others?

I accept real Sience Data. But this Picture is just made up

[PhantomJaguarr]

Lady customer told me she visits on average of 30 stores per week to find toilet paper. Told her to come early since the tp we do receive sells out within less than an hour. Heard a story of a guy camping out at a Costco since 3AM. Also, it’s becoming a felony for some business that decide to remain open that are not deemed essential.
 

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/03/23/coronavirus-santa-clara-county-district-attorney-prosecute-businesses-shelter-order/

[Canoe]

On 3/23/2020 at 6:24 PM, SpaceGhostC2C said:

But how does it reach those surfaces it remains on then? Skin oil?

Also, I'm confused about

Quote

SARS-CoV-2 aerosols have NOT been detected in patient rooms, nor on the surfaces the fine droplets in aerosols would fall onto. (I.e., where coughing/sneezing patients are frequently doing so.)

and

Quote

SARS-CoV-2 has been found on surfaces in patient rooms that are within droplet range.

being true at the same time.

Maybe I'm not understanding what "aerosol" means as a technical term in this context?

Very good questions, that all tie together. And very important given the experiment that mechanically created an aerosol with COVID-19 and SARS viruses.

 

A virus can of course, sit on a surface. But a virus doesn't need water nor oil to stick to something. They're very tiny, so a very tiny charge, even molecular attraction, is often enough for them to stay attached to a surface. That's a key way that filter material traps small particles, like airborne viruses. That's why rinsing your hands with water is largely useless (although better than doing nothing...) and washing them with soap, with some scrubbing, is necessary for the soap to disrupt and dissolve the virus envelope making it non-viable, and to get the soap into all the ridges and places on your skin (or clothes) where the viruses are.

 

An infected person gets viruses on themselves by touching or breathing (droplets) on themselves. They can then deposit viruses onto a surface by touching that surface or touching that surface with something they have already touched so it has the viruses on it. If they touch/kiss/etc. a person, that is Direct Transmission. We all expel droplets when we breath, talk, cough or sneeze. An infected person's droplets include viruses from shedding in their respiratory tract. If those droplets fall on someone and infects them, that is Droplet Transmission (the droplet/virus has passed an air gap to infect, so that is not Direct Transmission). Droplets also land on surfaces, typically within one metre - hence the ~six foot space between people for prevention of Droplet Transmission. Now that surface is contaminated and hence primed for Indirect Transmission of the infection to another person. So the questions will include how much shedding, how contaminated are the droplets, how long do they remain viable on surfaces, a few minutes, hours or days? As those will determine how much risk due to Droplet and Indirect Transmission.

 

If people sneezing or coughing can produce super fine droplets, and those are light enough to float in the air, that is an aerosol: Airborne or Aerosol Transmission. Again, the question of how long does a virus in aerosol remain viable, as that pertains to Aerosol Transmission infection risk.

 

By observation of swabs and infection rates, they determined that there was Direct Transmission, Droplet Transmission, most likely Indirect Transmission. From the shedding and viral load in the intestinal tract, they assume Fecal Transmission is highly likely.

 

Although not the first study finding this, the study's results of the COVID-19 virus remaining viable on surfaces for many hours is very important, as it is lab confirmation that the viruses can remain viable on a variety of surfaces, hence it is lab confirmation that Indirect Transmission is plausible, and on a variety of surfaces, hence in a variety of circumstances. This strongly supports the interim guidance warning of Indirect Transmission and, well, WASH FREQUENT-TOUCH SURFACES THAT PEOPLE CAN TOUCH AND THAT DROPLETS CAN FALL ONTO. (Hint - that's the takeaway.)

 

AEROSOLS

 

Viruses in super fine droplets that are airborne in an aerosol can become non-viable. The study didn't concern itself with how long they would remain viable, just that SARS-CoV-2 aerosols could exist, and the virus could remain viable in them. Therefore Airborne / Aerosol Transmission is Plausible. They did run that experiment for three hours, which is well within the risk period for medical personal performing a procedure that may result in aerosols that could infect them (like intubation where there is pressurized airflow that could create an aerosol). This has been suspected, from who got infected when, and the guidance I've seen was to use appropriate PPE. Now with those study results, they can reaffirm that.

 

Now the question is, can people produce virus aerosols in their normal activities, including sneezing and coughing. Testing air samples for aerosols of a virus is fine, but it isn't enough. A virus falls out of the aerosol, onto surfaces, or can stick to surfaces it flows against, so they may all be gone from the air (or below detectable levels) when you sample the air. You also have to sample surfaces that the virus can fall/stick onto. If you don't find the virus in aerosol but you find viruses on surfaces that are not in the patient's droplet range, then you know you had viruses in aerosol for a time. A patient in a hospital room is great for definitively testing for this, as the patient is, well, relatively captive.

 

So far known/reported, testing of COVID-19 patient rooms detected viruses on surfaces within the expected droplet range. They did not find any viruses in air samples, nor on surfaces that were out of the patient's droplet range: no present virus aerosols found and no indication of virus having been present in aerosols and dropping out onto surfaces.

 

Quote

~edit - added for completeness

In spite of the findings from monitoring patient rooms, due to other viruses going into aerosol by coughing or sneezing, for precautionary reasons (it is still realatively early in COVID-19 knowledge) it is highly recommended to sneeze into tissue and cough into tissue or your elbow. Some reports say they have no evidence to counter the patient room monitoring results, but suspect coughing or sneezing may produce finer droplets that can range beyond the one metre, a semi-aerosol, possibly out to two or even three metres before falling to the ground or shortly dropping out of aerosol. 

 

The next question is that of airborne/aerosols from diarrhea. Go back and read what I posted on that. The evidence of COVID-19 viruses in aerosol is weak (one unpublished study), but given the known intestinal load of the COVID-19 virus, and the range some diarrhea droplets can disperse (200 m), and that some COVID-19 patients present with diarrhea (6%?), there is some concern.

 

I hope that makes it clearer.

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Canoe
forgot to include info on possible sneezing/coughing semi-aerosols