COVID-19 - READ THE RULES BEFORE REPLYING

[PhantomJaguarr]

36 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

Wait, they estimate one person dies of COVID every 10 minutes, in one county in California? Over 140 people are dying from COVID every day just in Los Angeles County? To call that staggering is an understatement, how did it get so bad there?

Result of a "holiday surge" after Thanksgiving from those who traveled. The future surge from Christmas/New Years won't be felt until January and through mid February. 

[Rocketdog2112]

On 12/24/2020 at 12:30 PM, RorzNZ said:

3) Don't worry. Media is full of shit,

Yeah... That's a given

[Nowak]

On 12/26/2020 at 10:26 AM, Commodus said:

They do, but California also has a large population and warm weather that encourages the not-so-smart to mingle. And as we've seen, lockdowns don't stop people from hosting house parties or otherwise ignoring rules for personal meetups.

We had pretty strict rules here in Massachusetts too, but when the beaches opened over the summer COVID cases shot up from 80 - 100 a day to 1000 a day. Now we're at 2000 - 6000 cases a day.

[Kid.Lazer]

Seems as though "asymptomatic transmission" isn't really a thing. Who'da thunk.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/asymptomatic-transmission-of-covid-19-didnt-occur-at-all-study-of-10-million-finds?fbclid=IwAR0IAZkYWDbDroS0L80trGIm3L7hcBf77DE6psw_iAt9Z-LF2AkinfluFvE

[WkdPaul]

36 minutes ago, Kid.Lazer said:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/asymptomatic-transmission-of-covid-19-didnt-occur-at-all-study-of-10-million-finds?fbclid=IwAR0IAZkYWDbDroS0L80trGIm3L7hcBf77DE6psw_iAt9Z-LF2AkinfluFvE

1st ; This was done with only Chinese gov numbers, everyone in the scientific community is doubting those numbers (remember that the CCP has been saying COVID-19 started in the US since March).

 

2nd ; Look at cases in countries with enforced lockdowns vs no-lockdowns / non-enforced lockdowns. It's pretty clear lockdowns have an impact on transmission, asymptomatic cases or not.

Edited December 29, 2020 by wkdpaul

[Egg-Roll]

13 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

1st ; This was done with only Chinese gov numbers, everyone in the scientific community is doubting those numbers (remember that the CCP has been saying COVID-19 started in the US since March).

Even if the numbers are wrong, they apparently did screen nearly 10 million people. However they were looking for undiscovered cases and not really asymptomatic as the original article linked pointed out.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19802-w

 

That article is full of twisted wordplay (literally the link they referenced too):
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html

Quote

asymptomatic or presymptomatic infected wearers who feel well and may be unaware of their infectiousness to others, and who are estimated to account for more than 50% of transmissions.

I've said it (as well as others) just because they are asymptomatic at time of testing doesn't mean they won't develop them afterwards, you can spread it up to 3 days (I think) before symptoms.

 

It's almost like they did a search for asymptomatic in news & papers and used anything found to make a article out of it to their favor.

Actually reading the comments about 90% of them are calling them out on it too lol.

[WkdPaul]

31 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

Even if the numbers are wrong, they apparently did screen nearly 10 million people. However they were looking for undiscovered cases and not really asymptomatic as the original article linked pointed out.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19802-w

 

That article is full of twisted wordplay (literally the link they referenced too):
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html

I've said it (as well as others) just because they are asymptomatic at time of testing doesn't mean they won't develop them afterwards, you can spread it up to 3 days (I think) before symptoms.

 

It's almost like they did a search for asymptomatic in news & papers and used anything found to make a article out of it to their favor.

Actually reading the comments about 90% of them are calling them out on it too lol.

yeah, I didn't read the paper, but 300 asymptomatic cases out of 10 millions sounds like the raw data was manipulated.

[dalekphalm]

2 hours ago, Kid.Lazer said:

Seems as though "asymptomatic transmission" isn't really a thing. Who'da thunk.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/asymptomatic-transmission-of-covid-19-didnt-occur-at-all-study-of-10-million-finds?fbclid=IwAR0IAZkYWDbDroS0L80trGIm3L7hcBf77DE6psw_iAt9Z-LF2AkinfluFvE

I wouldn't read too much into that - this was in Wuhan only, and the Chinese Government enacted extremely strict conditions that likely wiped out the virus during this period.

 

Also note that while they detected 300 asymptomatic cases, they discovered zero new symptomatic cases during the same period.

 

I would caution whatever bias that the article itself may be introducing that the paper itself may not necessarily agree with.

[WkdPaul]

8 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Also note that while they detected 300 asymptomatic cases, they discovered zero new symptomatic cases during the same period.

Missed that part.

 

Gotta love scientific articles that can't vulgarize what they're trying to report, just like the Japan wood satellites ... Japan is doing this because of the atmospheric pollution 'metal' satellites create when they burn up on re-entery, but some articles says it to reduce space junk. A 'dead' satellite made of wood stuck in orbit would still be space junk. In the end it creates confusion and fuels misunderstandings and conspiracy theories (when talking about vaccines and COVID), it's rather annoying.

[dalekphalm]

Just now, wkdpaul said:

Missed that part.

 

Gotta love scientific articles that can't vulgarize what they're trying to report, just like the Japan wood satellites ... Japan is doing this because of the atmospheric pollution 'metal' satellites create when they burn up on re-entery, but some articles says it to reduce space junk. A 'dead' satellite made of wood stuck in orbit would still be space junk. In the end it creates confusion and fuels misunderstandings and conspiracy theories (when talking about vaccines and COVID), it's rather annoying.

Yeah I don't think the article mentions that tidbit at all - I had to go to the source paper to see that.

[WkdPaul]

17 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Yeah I don't think the article mentions that tidbit at all - I had to go to the source paper to see that.

So basically, there was no new symptomatic cases, but 300 asymptomatic cases during the testing, and contact tracing found no other cases (symptomatic or not). So it sounds like there wasn't much transmission and that COVID-19 wasn't an issue anymore during the testing timeframe.

 

I fail to understand how that proves there isn't any asymptomatic transmission, this only proves the severe Chinese lockdowns were successful in curbing transmission, not that there isn't any asymptomatic transmission, unless I'm missing something here.

Edited December 29, 2020 by wkdpaul

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, wkdpaul said:

So basically, there was no new symptomatic cases, but 300 asymptomatic cases during the testing, and contact tracing found no other cases (symptomatic or not). So it sounds like there wasn't much transmission and that COVID-19 wasn't an issue an issue anymore during the testing timeframe.

 

I fail to understand how that proves there isn't any asymptomatic transmission, this only proves the severe Chinese lockdowns were successful in curbing transmission, not that there isn't any asymptomatic transmission, unless I'm missing something here.

That was my conclusion as well - but I will admit I only skimmed the paper.

[Egg-Roll]

16 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

I fail to understand how that proves there isn't any asymptomatic transmission, this only proves the severe Chinese lockdowns were successful in curbing transmission, not that there isn't any asymptomatic transmission, unless I'm missing something here.

They mentioned the 300 were not likely able to transmit the virus at time of testing, however it is unknown if they ever were able too or not as they tested people who were close to them all coming back negative.

 

Equally should note only 190 of the 300 showed antibodies, while the others could be false positives or still in early stages which means they may still be able to spread the virus.

[WkdPaul]

3 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

They mentioned the 300 were not likely able to transmit the virus at time of testing, however it is unknown if they ever were able too or not as they tested people who were close to them all coming back negative.

 

Equally should note only 190 of the 300 showed antibodies, while the others could be false positives or still in early stages which means they may still be able to spread the virus.

Yeah, that's why I complained about (some) scientific articles a few posts ago, they come to conclusions that don't fit the paper their referencing and are presenting one possible scenario as undeniable facts.

 

Pretty annoying at best IMO.

[oskar23]

Do you guys think those who dont want to get either vaccine will have difficulties down the road ( travelling to other countries, getting job, entering certain places, etc ) 

 

Is there a chance for that to be mandatory? 

[Egg-Roll]

1 hour ago, oskar23 said:

Do you guys think those who dont want to get either vaccine will have difficulties down the road ( travelling to other countries, getting job, entering certain places, etc ) 

 

Is there a chance for that to be mandatory? 

Honestly it depends on a few factors, ultimately I highly doubt the "you need a vaccine to fly" will last for more than a year, if at all. Now nothing is stopping companies from demanding their employees to get the vaccine initially less medical reasons not too, same with entering say a seniors home to visit a loved one. So the factors I would consider making the vaccine mandatory would be if the work place demands it, if the country/location you wish to visit has failed to get it under control which it may not be required but would be smart to get, or it mutates in such a way making it more deadly at which time you should be thinking about getting the vaccine to save at least your life, however this part is unlikely.

 

5 hours ago, wkdpaul said:

Yeah, that's why I complained about (some) scientific articles a few posts ago, they come to conclusions that don't fit the paper their referencing and are presenting one possible scenario as undeniable facts.

Yea, that's why when I see something that doesn't sound right I always check the references, the extra reading does wonders esp on the web.

[Donut417]

8 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

Now nothing is stopping companies from demanding their employees to get the vaccine initially less medical reasons not too

Doubt that will even happen outside a few instances (Medical Staff and Military). 

 

9 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

same with entering say a seniors home to visit a loved one

Be hard to enforce that in the US. HIPPA in all. Because no nursing home will have the legal authority to get your medical records to determine if your vaccinated. 

 

9 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

I highly doubt the "you need a vaccine to fly

I agree. To fly no. BUT to cross a national border possibly. Or they might have an option to have you quarantine or be vaccinated. 

 

Once enough people get the vaccine and when a majority of the at risk part of the population get the vaccine, I think we will be fine. At a certain vaccination percentage we get herd immunity. I dont know what the number is going to be but I do know that not everyone has to get it. The really question is how long does the vaccine last for? All I know is I go see my doctor on the 8th for my annual. And Im going to ask a lot of questions about the vaccine. While Im not going to be first in line, Id at least like to hear info from a medial professional. 

[oskar23]

35 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

 you should be thinking about getting the vaccine to save at least your life, however this part is unlikely.

 

You know i was put under medication to treat depression and it gave me anxiety and panic attacks. I feel not myself anymore for last month. So no im not taking vaccine under any circumstances at this point. It takes months for side effects to show up after getting vaccinated, if any will ever occur, and we have to keep in mind everyone will react differently. Im just curious if they can force it on people or make life more difficult if someone doesn't want to take it. I already had covid few months ago with very mild symptoms. Im very paranoid after experience with meds for depression.

[Egg-Roll]

18 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Doubt that will even happen outside a few instances (Medical Staff and Military). 

True, but it is well within the companies rights, at least for now. I would say Amazon needs to be one of those companies once the vaccine is readily available, local amazon depots accounted for 200 or 400 cases in a week or 2 period just before Christmas.

 

20 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Be hard to enforce that in the US. HIPPA in all. Because no nursing home will have the legal authority to get your medical records to determine if your vaccinated. 

True, same here no one can demand it outside of work and health situations, however Ontario was talking about how those who get vaccinated could get a card or certificate as proof (to get around that likely). They might be able to legally request that, but I'm not 100% sure but I would assume it would be equal to stepping foot on a plane, as they too are not legally supposed to ask either, personally I would trust a home over a airliner any day.

 

28 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Once enough people get the vaccine and when a majority of the at risk part of the population get the vaccine, I think we will be fine. At a certain vaccination percentage we get herd immunity. I dont know what the number is going to be but I do know that not everyone has to get it. The really question is how long does the vaccine last for? All I know is I go see my doctor on the 8th for my annual. And Im going to ask a lot of questions about the vaccine. While Im not going to be first in line, Id at least like to hear info from a medial professional. 

I think herd immunity is about 70-80% including those who got the virus and hold antibodies, however I do agree with your how long question. That is one answer no one knows yet, but lets say 6 months, it gives us 4-5 months to kill this thing off (unless shipments come in bigger and bigger batches) the US will have the hardest time if that is the case however.

 

I personally don't think they'll know more than what is on the news unless they have the vaccine in hand or a actual pamphlet or information about it. It doesn't hurt to ask however and I'm sure they are used to the questions.

 

2 minutes ago, oskar23 said:

You know i was put under medication to treat depression and it gave me anxiety and panic attacks. I feel not myself anymore for last month. So no im not taking vaccine under any circumstances at this point. It takes months for side effects to show up after getting vaccinated, if any will ever occur, and we have to keep in mind everyone will react differently. Im just curious if they can force it on people or make life more difficult if someone doesn't want to take it. I already had covid few months ago with very mild symptoms. Im very paranoid after experience with meds for depression.

The part you quoted is in worst case scenario that is really unlikely to happen, but in your situation you'll likely be able to not take the vaccine, however that comes down to your Dr.s opinion at said time and if it is safe to do so. However the current known major reactions to the current vaccines are caused by the filler more than anything.

 

Since you already had the virus you could go threw a blood test to prove you still have antibodies, but that might cost you money, tho it could save you the risks if you do still have them. I know my local gov is suggesting those who had it already should still get the shot (I think, unless I'm confusing it with the flu shot). So it really comes down to who asks for it and when, like today no one is going to demand you to get the vaccine, let alone in 6 months time likely depending on shipments to where you live.

[Donut417]

5 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

True, but it is well within the companies rights, at least for now. I would say Amazon needs to be one of those companies once the vaccine is readily available, local amazon depots accounted for 200 or 400 cases in a week or 2 period just before Christmas.

Doesn't work that way. Hell my company offered to cover Flu vaccines for all employees. I was the only one at the warehouse to get one. I work with a bunch of Anti Vaxers I guess. But LEGALLY they cant force any type of medial procedure on you. With the exception of if you work in the medical field or you're enlisted in the US military. On top of that, there are doctors out there that would lie for a patient. Meaning they would "Claim" they had a medial issue that stopped them from getting the vaccine. Just like there were tons of doctors that would sign off on a Medial Marijuana card back when Michigan was medial use only. 

 

10 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

same here no one can demand it outside of work and health situations,

But thats the thing. My employer doesn't have the right to know about my health. I have no legal obligation to tell them a damn thing. HIPPA pretty much says that my healthcare provider can only share info with who ever is on my HIPPA, my employee is not on my HIPPA. The only obligation I would have is if I came down with Covid, and I had to alert them. Outside of that, they cant force vaccinations on any one. You already see what happens when the police try to enforce the law in the US. What kind of reaction do you think if they forced everyone to get vaccinated? 

 

For the record I do plan on getting it at some point. I just want to wait a little while because Id like to see what kind of side effects that are potential. Plus Im a young healthy ish lad. I rather the people who are high risk to have a chance to get it before I do. 

 

[Egg-Roll]

6 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Doesn't work that way. Hell my company offered to cover Flu vaccines for all employees. I was the only one at the warehouse to get one. I work with a bunch of Anti Vaxers I guess. But LEGALLY they cant force any type of medial procedure on you. With the exception of if you work in the medical field or you're enlisted in the US military. On top of that, there are doctors out there that would lie for a patient. Meaning they would "Claim" they had a medial issue that stopped them from getting the vaccine. Just like there were tons of doctors that would sign off on a Medial Marijuana card back when Michigan was medial use only. 

 

But thats the thing. My employer doesn't have the right to know about my health. I have no legal obligation to tell them a damn thing. HIPPA pretty much says that my healthcare provider can only share info with who ever is on my HIPPA, my employee is not on my HIPPA. The only obligation I would have is if I came down with Covid, and I had to alert them. Outside of that, they cant force vaccinations on any one. You already see what happens when the police try to enforce the law in the US. What kind of reaction do you think if they forced everyone to get vaccinated? 

 

For the record I do plan on getting it at some point. I just want to wait a little while because Id like to see what kind of side effects that are potential. Plus Im a young healthy ish lad. I rather the people who are high risk to have a chance to get it before I do. 

 

I don't think you get proof of getting the flu shot, plus not getting the flu shot isn't really going to hurt people like not getting the covid one could. You are right they can't force you but they can also let you go as well with proper notice, all they have to do is update their policies for employment and you either sign it or don't. For the lying doctors well, that is where a proof system works, one can't really lie then (they could, but why would they really).

 

Just remember depending how your local government sets up the vaccine you are not forced in any way to get it but no employer has to entertain you or keep you if you refuse to get it or refuse to show proof if it is a certificate or card handed after second dose. A good example of this is one place I used to work where it is perfectly legal to talk about wages at work and illegal to fire people for doing so, however if it becomes (or is) company policy then you are not allowed to talk about wages on site(and technically off). Same thing with medical, if the company updates their company policy stating all employees have to take the flu shot or covid vaccine else can face termination, guess what chances are that is legal. Simply because you have the option to leave as long as you have the legal required period to do so (usually 2+ weeks). Or in other words if the work situation can show evidence they need your health records (or to a degree) it becomes legal, some places will do a physical on site, while others need you to go to a dr for it. In this situation if you work in a warehouse surrounded by 100 people, the company can argue those who don't want to take the vaccine pose a high risk to others, whereas the flu shot almost everyone has had the flu which means your body has had some sort of immunity to it whereas covid there is none. Just because it is a right doesn't mean it's always a right.

 

I'll get the vaccine once all those who need it get it (or want it), or if I'm mandated by work, which if it is in their policy they can enforce it despite it actually invading my own privacy. Working isn't a right, it's just needed to live, if it was a right no one would ever be unemployed, and very few would ever get fired.

[Donut417]

2 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

not getting the flu shot isn't really going to hurt people like not getting the covid one could

Millions die of the flu every year. The flu is highly contagious. Im fairly sure Ive had it before. The only reason its not too bad is because insurance covers the shot for most people so, the people who dont have their heads shoved up their ass do get it. 

 

4 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

don't think you get proof of getting the flu shot,

You dont, but the point I made is the FEDERAL LAW says the medial info is private between patient, doctor and who ever the patient has on their HIPPA. HIPPA violations are VERY serious, like Federal prison serious. 

 

5 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

You are right they can't force you but they can also let you go as well with proper notice, all they have to do is update their policies for employment and you either sign it or don't.

That potentially could violate Labor laws. Like the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). Being sick is technically a disability. Not being able to get a vaccine is a disability. And also there is HIPAA. The LAW is the LAW.

 

9 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

t no employer has to entertain you or keep you if you refuse to get it or refuse to show proof if

did I mention HIPPA? I dont think employers want to have civil suits to federal prison time. The there is the other side. No one wants to go back to work. SO employers are having a hell of a time finding employees. They aren't going to fire people for no vaccine. They frankly cant afford too. 

 

 

[WkdPaul]

13 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

did I mention HIPPA?

That's the US, a lot of us aren't Americans, so that wouldn't apply

[Donut417]

2 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

That's the US, a lot of us aren't Americans, so that wouldn't apply

Which is what Im trying to get thru that guys thick head. They cant force Americans to get vaccinated. There would be rioting in the streets. 

[Egg-Roll]

 

 

8 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

You dont, but the point I made is the FEDERAL LAW says the medial info is private between patient, doctor and who ever the patient has on their HIPPA. HIPPA violations are VERY serious, like Federal prison serious. 

 

That potentially could violate Labor laws. Like the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). Being sick is technically a disability. Not being able to get a vaccine is a disability. And also there is HIPAA. The LAW is the LAW.

 

did I mention HIPPA? I dont think employers want to have civil suits to federal prison time. The there is the other side. No one wants to go back to work. SO employers are having a hell of a time finding employees. They aren't going to fire people for no vaccine. They frankly cant afford too. 

 

 

Right, like I stated working isn't a right, so no one is forcing you to provide that information. It's the same reason why Costco can legally demand to see your receipt even tho your rights as a US citizen prevent that from happening. Certain rights can be removed if conditions are in place, that's my point.

 

Obviously they can't fire someone for not being able to get the vaccine, however that would need a note from the doctor in good faith stating said person can't take the vaccine.

 

You talk about HIPAA as tho there is no loopholes that people can't use, I guarantee you there are situations where your rights under it can be removed. I'm almost 100% certain just like in Canada a company has the right to request appropriate medical background records (or for you to do said tests) if the job calls for it, you think truckers can just waltz into a truck scot-free and drive with just a license? They can't, they need medicals done x number of years, who gets it? The companies. That's why I can say a company can require the covid vaccine w/o recourse so long they provide enough time or pay for those who don't want to comply, those who can't due to health are a exception, but they are small in numbers and not in mass.

 

3 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Which is what Im trying to get thru that guys thick head. They cant force Americans to get vaccinated. There would be rioting in the streets. 

I never stated force, not once... Working is not a right it's a privilege that is needed to live. Don't want to share your vaccine history with work even if they update the policy to do so? Here's 2 weeks pay bye-bye. Reason for termination? Refusing to sign the new policy. You might win in court, not worth your time or money however, not for covid likely anyways.