COVID-19 - READ THE RULES BEFORE REPLYING

[dalekphalm]

14 hours ago, Red said:

Welp, here in the Czech Republic, if you wanna shop for groceries, you HAVE TO take a shopping cart.

While it wasn't mandated by the government, here in Ontario a lot of grocery stores were enforcing that rule back in March - the idea is that they can sanitize the cart rather easily, but if you don't bring a cart in, you're likely to touch more things, put more things back, etc.

 

While it might be slightly annoying at worst, I don't really see a problem with it. Just grab a cart. If you only need one thing, so what? Though it'll be difficult to enforce no doubt.

 

[SpaceGhostC2C]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

While it wasn't mandated by the government, here in Ontario a lot of grocery stores were enforcing that rule back in March - the idea is that they can sanitize the cart rather easily, but if you don't bring a cart in, you're likely to touch more things, put more things back, etc.

 

Also, you can't get that close to others if the carts are in the way. Plus it's also better than people bringing their own carts from home into the store (that wouldn't apply to people shopping without any cart, though).

[Fasauceome]

I'm bothered by the nurses that insist that the covid pandemic is overblown. They're nurses that don't work in the same segments as the nurses who are indeed handling the covid patients, and it needlessly gives credence to the deniers. 

[Dracarris]

3 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

While it wasn't mandated by the government, here in Ontario a lot of grocery stores were enforcing that rule back in March - the idea is that they can sanitize the cart rather easily, but if you don't bring a cart in, you're likely to touch more things, put more things back, etc.

 

While it might be slightly annoying at worst, I don't really see a problem with it. Just grab a cart. If you only need one thing, so what? Though it'll be difficult to enforce no doubt.

 

They also enforce this in Germany. And then don't clean the carts after usage. Congrats on that. Especially annoying also if you only want to grab 1-2 quick items.

 

As for ensuring distance.. I am not so sure. With more carts standing the way, there is less space to use to avoid each other. These things are so freakin huge that one or two can block a complete aisle.

[dalekphalm]

6 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

They also enforce this in Germany. And then don't clean the carts after usage. Congrats on that.

Here most grocery stores are very strict about cleaning the carts. They have cleaned carts at the door and you deposit your used cart into the outside cart return stall. So that's simply a failure of your local businesses.

6 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Especially annoying also if you only want to grab 1-2 quick items.

Unfortunate, but they don't know what you're gonna do when you get inside.

6 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

As for ensuring distance.. I am not so sure. With more carts standing the way, there is less space to use to avoid each other. These things are so freakin huge that one or two can block a complete aisle.

Well... to be fair, if you're passing someone in an aisle, you're already too close to them.

[wANKER]

This might just be me being dumb

But what's the logic in only reporting on the total number of positive cases in a period, and not including the number of total tests carried out? 

[WkdPaul]

22 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Here most grocery stores are very strict about cleaning the carts. They have cleaned carts at the door and you deposit your used cart into the outside cart return stall. So that's simply a failure of your local businesses.

Similar here in Quebec, we (my family) primarily only go to Maxi&co and Costco, Maxi has an employee at the door disinfecting carts, and Costco has multiple employees outside gathering the carts, cleaning them and handing them to clients.

 

14 minutes ago, wANKER said:

This might just be me being dumb

But what's the logic in only reporting on the total number of positive cases in a period, and not including the number of total tests carried out? 

 

 

I guess it depends on where you live, here in my province, the daily numbers also include the number of tests done.

Edited November 20, 2020 by wkdpaul

[Dracarris]

16 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

So that's simply a failure of your local businesses.

Of course, but that is wide spread here and doesnt change that fact that this measure increases the chance of spreading by applying that rule.

 

17 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Unfortunate, but they don't know what you're gonna do when you get inside.

That's why I tell that to the security guard that they hired to enforce this. Which then replies with: "Well that's the rule".

 

17 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Well... to be fair, if you're passing someone in an aisle, you're already too close to them.

I don't know about your place, but here there is at least 1.5m spacing between shelfs. So if both keep close to each shelf there is enough distance which is simply not possible with a shopping cart. Even if without a cart the spacing would be too little, shopping carts standing everywhere (which I hate during regular times already, freaking things blocking everything) will only reduce the possible spacing, making matters worse, not better. 1m is still much better than 40cm.

 

Put otherwise: A person that is already incapable of keeping the appropriate distance will fail even harder with shopping cards standing around everywhere, blocking more space and narrowing pathways.

Simply monitor the number of people in the shop and limit it to a sensible number where people can get easily out of each others way.

[dalekphalm]

13 minutes ago, wANKER said:

This might just be me being dumb

But what's the logic in only reporting on the total number of positive cases in a period, and not including the number of total tests carried out? 

Most places do report these numbers? Though I would guess in most countries, the numbers are undercounted due to asymptomatic cases not being tested.

 

Realistically we'd need a very high percentage of the population tested to get a true sense of the case counts.

 

Of course, now people are yelling on social media to stop counting - as if pretending it's not happening will make people stop dying *rolls eyes*

12 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

Similar here in Quebec, we primarily only go to Maxi&co and Costco, Maxi has an employee at the door disinfecting carts, and Costco has multiple employees outside gathering the carts, cleaning them and handing them to clients.

Very similar here - though it seems every grocery store is doing this (at least all the ones I've been to).

[dalekphalm]

8 minutes ago, Dracarris said:

Of course, but that is wide spread here and doesnt change that fact that this measure increases the chance of spreading by applying that rule.

True enough - if they're not being diligent, I'd simply bring some alcohol wipes with you and wipe down the cart handle.

Quote

That's why I tell that to the security guard that they hired to enforce this. Which then replies with: "Well that's the rule".

That's good - but at the same time... how can he trust you? He doesn't know you.

 

On top of that, in situations like COVID, it's very important to be consistent with the rules - because troublemakers (mostly anti-maskers) will latch on to any example of someone else getting exempt from a rule.

Quote

I don't know about your place, but here there is at least 1.5m spacing between shelfs. So if both keep close to each shelf there is enough distance which is simply not possible with a shopping cart. Even if without a cart the spacing would be too little, shopping carts standing everywhere (which I hate during regular times already, freaking things blocking everything) will only reduce the possible spacing, making matters worse, not better. 1m is still much better than 40cm.

1.5m is not enough.

 

The golden rule is 6ft (although I've noticed in Metric countries they've rounded up to 2m = 6.6ft) - yes, masks can hypothetically allow you to get closer with reduced risk of infection, but that's not something I'd like to risk with strangers.

 

Also - while not enforced in every place, but many grocery stores here are making aisles one-way.

Quote

Put otherwise: A person that is already incapable of keeping the appropriate distance will fail even harder with shopping cards standing around everywhere, blocking more space and narrowing pathways.

Those people will be problematic anyway. Best thing to do is try and avoid them, or ask them to step back if they get too close.

Quote

Simply monitor the number of people in the shop and limit it to a sensible number where people can get easily out of each others way.

This in Ontario anyway is already mandated - there is a calculation for number of people per sq-ft in each store. There will always be people that don't follow the rules, but the carts can make it so that it's harder for someone to even get near you.

 

Use your cart like a shield. If someone is getting close, simply position the cart between you.

[Dracarris]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

That's good - but at the same time... how can he trust you? He doesn't know you.

Well what sense is there in lying to the guy and then ending up having to hold all the things with my hands? Plus simply assuming anyone is lying to you won't get us anywhere.

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

1.5m is not enough.

 

The golden rule is 6ft (although I've noticed in Metric countries they've rounded up to 2m = 6.6ft)

So why exactly is 1.5m not enough but 2m golden?? 1.5m is now used in European countries as the rule.

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

yes, masks can hypothetically allow you to get closer with reduced risk of infection, but that's not something I'd like to risk with strangers.

Wearing masks, now mandatory in basically every EU country, is much more important than measuring every cm of distance. Simply passing by an infected person with very little distance won't get you infected. Longer, close exposure, especially without masks is what brings the risk. After all, contact tracing apps will only alert when being closer than 1.5m to an infected person and staying in this proximity for more than 15min.

 

So it is important to pass quickly, which again is made more difficult by unnecessary cards standing everywhere.

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

Also - while not enforced in every place, but many grocery stores here are making aisles one-way.

Yeah, I know that concept. Go figure how well it is adapted. This is simply very impractical, especially in grocery stores. Plus not every store is built like an American city (only 90deg corners).

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

There will always be people that don't follow the rules, but the carts can make it so that it's harder for someone to even get near you.

Use your cart like a shield. If someone is getting close, simply position the cart between you.

Are you serious?? So I should turn the cart sideways to block the aisle and prevent someone from quickly passing? Which will then angrily ask me what the hell I am doing? In any case a cart will only "protect" you from one side. People can approach you from everywhere and moving away will then be significantly harder with that bulky thing.

 

This rule helps in no way whatsoever, which is probably why so few places have it. All it does is unnecessarily complicate doing groceries for people that only need to fetch a few things and waste space that is not available anymore for people to avoid each other. It would technically work if everyone would hold on to their cart at all times. Go figure how well that works, no matter where.

[PhantomJaguarr]

I'm curious if my store's hours are going to be the same after curfew starts tomorrow because we are currently open way passed 10pm. 

[dalekphalm]

19 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Well what sense is there in lying to the guy and then ending up having to hold all the things with my hands? Plus simply assuming anyone is lying to you won't get us anywhere.

They have to assume the worst. Especially if you're trying to skirt past a rule they've put in place.

19 hours ago, Dracarris said:

So why exactly is 1.5m not enough but 2m golden?? 1.5m is now used in European countries as the rule.

I can't speak for European decisions - the 2m "rule" was devised because that's approximately how far water droplets will travel on average when people exhale. As I mentioned, masks can reduce that distance but doesn't necessarily reduce it fully.

19 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Wearing masks, now mandatory in basically every EU country, is much more important than measuring every cm of distance. Simply passing by an infected person with very little distance won't get you infected. Longer, close exposure, especially without masks is what brings the risk. After all, contact tracing apps will only alert when being closer than 1.5m to an infected person and staying in this proximity for more than 15min.

The risk is small - but to say it won't get you infected is absolute. It probably won't get you infected. There are no absolutes here right now.

 

Contact tracing apps are working off of averages and what's likely - they don't cover every possible infection scenario.

19 hours ago, Dracarris said:

So it is important to pass quickly, which again is made more difficult by unnecessary cards standing everywhere.

It's more important to not pass people period.

19 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Yeah, I know that concept. Go figure how well it is adapted. This is simply very impractical, especially in grocery stores. Plus not every store is built like an American city (only 90deg corners).

I agree it's not always practical - but if used properly it helps significantly. Hell, I'd even go so far as to install one-way turnstyle gates at the entrance to each aisle so you can only enter in one side and exit the other side - but that would have it's own problems (people trying to go the wrong way anyway - possible fire hazards, etc).

19 hours ago, Dracarris said:

Are you serious?? So I should turn the cart sideways to block the aisle and prevent someone from quickly passing? Which will then angrily ask me what the hell I am doing? In any case a cart will only "protect" you from one side. People can approach you from everywhere and moving away will then be significantly harder with that bulky thing.

Yes, you should. If people get angry, tell them to keep their distance and wait until you're finished.

 

Frankly, if everyone was more patient at the grocery store, it would be way easier to keep safe and it would be more convenient for everyone.

 

People can approach you from everywhere - but this goes back to the mandatory cart thing - if they have a cart too, they can only come as close as the front of their cart - thus protecting you further.

19 hours ago, Dracarris said:

This rule helps in no way whatsoever, which is probably why so few places have it. All it does is unnecessarily complicate doing groceries for people that only need to fetch a few things and waste space that is not available anymore for people to avoid each other. It would technically work if everyone would hold on to their cart at all times. Go figure how well that works, no matter where.

This is where enforcement by staff becomes important.

 

The best rules are only as good as how strictly they are enforced. If they enforced everyone taking a cart, it would be near impossible for people to get too close to one another. If someone abandons their cart or temporarily leaves it to come closer to another shopper, staff should intervene.

 

Does that always happen? No. But it should.

 

I'm not saying these rules are perfect - none are. But they are designed with a good purpose in mind, and there ARE ways to make them work better.

[Dracarris]

16 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

They have to assume the worst. Especially if you're trying to skirt past a rule they've put in place.

Thinking and acting like this, always assuming the very worst, literally will get us all as a society absolutely nowhere. This is just a horrible attitude.

I am not skirting past a rule - I say that to this rule there should be made an absolutel sensible exception in the first place. Two totally different things. You also haven't answered what sense there is in lying to a guard, then picking up many items that you cannot possibly hold with bear hands.

16 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

It's more important to not pass people period.

Completely impossible and impractical in grocery stores unless you expect everyone to double or triple their shopping time, wait everytime the person in from of them moved on in the aisle. As I have already said, only way this will work is everyone holds on to their cart at all times. And btw, a shopping cart is much shorter than 2m.

 

Telling everyone that does not follow rules to follow them means talking to people, the very process that should be avoided and produces droplets being spread, especially when one or both parties are angry. The most sensible thing to do with people that deliberately don't follow rules, anti-maskers and so on is to avoid them altogether. I see little joy in getting screamed on by a person without mask to eff off because it is his personal right to not wear one and stand next to me in the aisle.

[Nine Tailed Fox]

 

[Zodiark1593]

On 11/21/2020 at 8:34 AM, dalekphalm said:

 

 

 

I agree it's not always practical - but if used properly it helps significantly. Hell, I'd even go so far as to install one-way turnstyle gates at the entrance to each aisle so you can only enter in one side and exit the other side - but that would have it's own problems (people trying to go the wrong way anyway - possible fire hazards, etc).

Yes, you should. If people get angry, tell them to keep their distance and wait until you're finished.

 

Frankly, if everyone was more patient at the grocery store, it would be way easier to keep safe and it would be more convenient for everyone.

 

People can approach you from everywhere - but this goes back to the mandatory cart thing - if they have a cart too, they can only come as close as the front of their cart - thus protecting you further.

This is where enforcement by staff becomes important.

 

The best rules are only as good as how strictly they are enforced. If they enforced everyone taking a cart, it would be near impossible for people to get too close to one another. If someone abandons their cart or temporarily leaves it to come closer to another shopper, staff should intervene.

 

Does that always happen? No. But it should.

 

I'm not saying these rules are perfect - none are. But they are designed with a good purpose in mind, and there ARE ways to make them work better.

I dislike being in a grocery store to begin with, so I prefer to go in, grab the few things I need, and GTFO. Unless they have cops onsite (and probably even the ), I’d likely entirely disregard both one-way isle mandates (actually have, numerous times at the Wal-Marts) and cart mandates, especially as self checkout means a cashier isn’t enforcing it. 
 

I do wear a mask btw. I just loathe being around people overly long. 

[WkdPaul]

Washington University COVID model predicts US cases could double before mid to end of Jan 2021.

 

https://source.wustl.edu/2020/11/covid-19-cases-could-nearly-double-before-biden-takes-office/

 

 

That model predicted that if people were social distancing, cases would drop, but that if they didn't, cases would surge, which it did.

https://source.wustl.edu/2020/06/study-researchers-forecast-stable-slightly-declining-levels-of-covid-19-entering-fall/

 

 

There's an online version of the model here ;

https://covidforecast.wustl.edu/

Edited November 23, 2020 by wkdpaul

[Vishera]

The world basically waits for the vaccines,so we have to fight SARS 2 CoV-19 (the full name is a lot longer) until then.

Also it's annoying me that people call the virus Coronavirus,it's not wrong but that's just the family of the virus

The common cold is a Coronavirus as well.

The name of the family that is often used: Coronaviridae

Corona = Crown

Viridae = Virus

 

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome_coronavirus_2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronaviridae

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/corona

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-viridae

[dalekphalm]

5 minutes ago, Vishera said:

The world basically waits for the vaccines,so we have to fight SARS 2 CoV-19 (the full name is a lot longer) until then.

Actually the full name is this:

Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)

 

There is no "SARS 2 CoV-19" - I've never heard of that descriptor. I suppose it's possible that some organization is using that descriptor, but the official name is either "SARS-CoV-2" or "Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome_coronavirus_2

5 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Also it's annoying me that people call the virus Coronavirus,it's not wrong but that's just the family of the virus

People call it Coronavirus for the same reason we call the Flu The Flu, or Influenza (which is a family of viruses) instead of calling it the specific influenza strain.

 

It's annoying, yes, but when literally anybody who isn't an infecious disease expert says "Cornoavirus", I think we can all assume they're talking about SARS-CoV-2 - which people call "COVID-19" as well.

 

For clarification, COVID-19 is the Coronavirus Disease 2019 - it's the disease caused by SARS-CoV-2. Most people just use COVID-19 to refer to it all though - myself included in most cases.

5 minutes ago, Vishera said:

The common cold is a Coronavirus as well.

This is kind of true, but also kind of false.

 

The common cold is caused by multiple different viruses, including Rhinovirus, and "Common Human Coronaviruses". In fact, according to my research, Rhinovirus causes the vast majority of cases of the Common Cold:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_cold#cite_note-30

5 minutes ago, Vishera said:

The name of the family that is often used: Coronaviridae

Corona = Crown

Viridae = Virus

 

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome_coronavirus_2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronaviridae

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/corona

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-viridae

All good information here.

[Vishera]

Just now, dalekphalm said:

Actually the full name is this:

Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)

 

There is no "SARS 2 CoV-19" - I've never heard of that descriptor. I suppose it's possible that some organization is using that descriptor, but the official name is either "SARS-CoV-2" or "Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome_coronavirus_2

You are right

Thank you for correcting me.

Just now, dalekphalm said:

People call it Coronavirus for the same reason we call the Flu The Flu, or Influenza (which is a family of viruses) instead of calling it the specific influenza strain.

 

It's annoying, yes, but when literally anybody who isn't an infecious disease expert says "Cornoavirus", I think we can all assume they're talking about SARS-CoV-2 - which people call "COVID-19" as well.

 

For clarification, COVID-19 is the Coronavirus Disease 2019 - it's the disease caused by SARS-CoV-2. Most people just use COVID-19 to refer to it all though - myself included in most cases.

I think we should call it SARS 2

Just like we call Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome - SARS

Just now, dalekphalm said:

This is kind of true, but also kind of false.

 

The common cold is caused by multiple different viruses, including Rhinovirus, and "Common Human Coronaviruses". In fact, according to my research, Rhinovirus causes the vast majority of cases of the Common Cold:

So it's more accurate to say that there is a variation of the common cold that is a Coronavirus.

2 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

All good information here.

Thanks

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, Vishera said:

You are right

Thank you for correcting me.

No problem - we all make mistakes, myself included. I hope I wasn't coming off as an asshole. I like it when people correct me too - as long as we're polite about it anyway

1 minute ago, Vishera said:

I think we should call it SARS 2

Just like we call Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome - SARS

I wouldn't oppose that - but in general discussion, people would just call it COVID or COVID-19 instead, I think - but "SARS 2" would also be perfect acceptable to me.

 

One thing I think everyone including the media gets wrong is not differentiating between SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19.

For example - asymptomatic people would technically not be COVID-19 cases, right? Since COVID-19 is the disease caused by the virus, and a disease has symptoms. If you have no symptoms, technically you don't have that disease (It's the same thing between HIV and AIDS).

 

So all these trackers should really be called "SARS-CoV-2 cases". In practice, does that matter? No - I don't think so.

1 minute ago, Vishera said:

So it's more accurate to say that there is a variation of the common cold that is a Coronavirus.

Yes that's correct. 

1 minute ago, Vishera said:

Thanks

You're welcome!

[Donut417]

37 minutes ago, Vishera said:

The world basically waits for the vaccines,so we have to fight SARS 2 CoV-19 (the full name is a lot longer) until then.

Even then, we will be in a fight. Don’t forget about the deniers and anti vaxers. 

[Vishera]

Just now, Donut417 said:

Even then, we will be in a fight. Don’t forget about the deniers and anti vaxers. 

Just don't let them to get back to jobs and schools until they are vaccinated.

Vaccines have eliminated or nearly eliminated a large number of diseases,despite the existence of "anti vaxers".

Polio is a good example for it.

[dalekphalm]

Just now, Donut417 said:

Even then, we will be in a fight. Don’t forget about the deniers and anti vaxers. 

Yep, Facebook is already filled with comments about how people won't get the vaccine.

 

Now, if you're an American, I would have been hesitant about any vaccine that the President rushed through approval before the election, but now that that's over, I'm a little more trusting.

 

Granted, I won't get one until it's approved by Health Canada - and I fully trust their vetting process. I for one will be lined up to get one as soon as it's approved, and if multiple are approved and available, whichever one I deem the "best" based on the research.

 

But realistically all 3 of the most prominent ones seem extremely similar in effectiveness (Oxford/Zeneca, Pfizer, and Moderna I believe) - all of them are 90%+ effective (tentative - wait for the research papers to be published and peer reviewed), and so far at least, all of them provide at least 6 months of protection (likely to be much longer, but they've only had people injected for 6 months now tops).

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, Vishera said:

Just don't let them to get back to jobs and schools until they are vaccinated.

Vaccines have eliminated or nearly eliminated a large number of diseases,despite the existence of "anti vaxers".

Polio is a good example for it.

That might work in some countries, but in the US, people would probably lose their shit if the vaccine was tied to employment or something like that.

 

Schools shouldn't be too much trouble - most school boards already have mandatory vaccine lists. Exemptions will be key here - some places have exemptions based on non-medical needs.

 

I of course 100% support medical exemptions for vaccines - some people will literally die if they take a vaccine due to one medical issue or another they have. But I do not support religious or moral objections for those same vaccine lists.