AMD not supporting Zen3 on older motherboards :(

[leadeater]

17 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I'm sure tons of people bought B450 based on build guides from reviewers.

I'm sure a lot did too, who is going to recommend only expensive X570 for CPU that make zero sense to pair with them. That's why B550 being delayed as long as it was is such a problem, because that is also a dependent lead time on figuring out 400 series support. These delays have flow on problems.

 

15 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It doesn't matter what happened with the B550.

Yes it does, it makes all the difference. It was why we are getting this information now not earlier.

 

Edit:

15 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Regardless when they made that decision, enough information was clearly available to them to make it much earlier than they did.  And that is the problem. 

How much earlier, name a month. Exactly how much sooner do you think all factors, all efforts, everything was done to sort out and make this decision? What are you basing this off of? That they had all the time in the world to concurrently work on the B550 issues and sort out 400 series support and were not actually doing that anyway. I'll accept a couple of month sooner, any longer than that and you're getting in to very strong amounts unfounded speculation.

 

B550 in August-November means many months sooner notification of 400 series support, that is speculation but not exactly unfounded.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 

 

Yes it does, it makes all the difference. It was why we are getting this information now not earlier.

It might be the reason we are getting this information now, but it is not the cause of B450 not being supported nor does it effect the time in which AMD took to announce it.   They should have announced no pre x5xx support as soon as they knew they couldn't, not wait until the B550 failed to appear enough times that they had virtually no other option. 

 

 

[leadeater]

Just now, mr moose said:

nor does it effect the time in which AMD took to announce it.  

Yes, it does.

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

They should have announced no pre x5xx support as soon as they knew they couldn't

So the 7th of May 2020. Unless you have proof of exactly how long ago they knew they couldn't or wouldn't.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

So the 7th of May 2020. Unless you have proof of exactly how long ago they knew the couldn't or wouldn't.

If their product testing  isn't at least 6 months in front of product announcement then they aren't running very well at all.  The writing should have been on the wall for them when they were having trouble with bios size June last year and the fact that B550 was supposed to be released Novemeber last year but they couldn't get it to work obviously points to them Knowing a lot early than the 7th of may.  I would be very surprised if they didn't know bout it in January.

  

The fact they started changing the marketing terms from "through 2020" to "until 2020" last year should be a pretty big hint that they knew.

 

 

 

[Blademaster91]

24 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It doesn't matter what happened with the B550.  They were still allowing the promotion of B450 being supported with zen3.   Regardless when they made that decision, enough information was clearly available to them to make it much earlier than they did.  And that is the problem. 

Then maybe all of the marketing of Zen 3 support was from board partners, and AMD had no idea? But like the whole pci-e 4.0 support on X470 argument, both board partners and AMD are to blame with false advertising.

22 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I know it read that way, I read it that way too, but I don't think he meant it that way.  

Yeah I read it that way at first, but I get what they mean people shouldn't be so surprised since AM4 already supports so many CPU's. GamersNexus went over it and I was actually surprised the 16MB bios chips most board partners went with couldn't hold code for every AM4 CPU.

[leadeater]

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

If their product testing  isn't at least 6 months in front of product announcement then they aren't running very well at all.  The writing should have been on the wall for them when they were having trouble with bios size June last year and the fact that B550 was supposed to be released Novemeber last year but they couldn't get it to work obviously points to them Knowing a lot early than the 7th of may.  I would be very surprised if they didn't know bout it in January.

Yes and they were working both on B550 and Zen 3 at the time, so what you're saying is that you know they 100% had the time and resources to also work on 400 series support for Zen 3 products? This is exactly my point, B550 being earlier directly results in anything required for 400 series to be done and us to be notified sooner.

 

We literally just got the B550 chipset announcement, we can't even buy products with them yet you are confident they had the time and resources and even the willingness to direct towards 400 series support for a currently unannounced architecture?

 

Wanting to be told sooner and actually being able to be told sooner is still and have always been different things.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Yes and they were working both on B550 and Zen 3 at the time, so what you're saying is that you know they 100% had the time and resources to also work on 400 series support for Zen 3 products? This is exactly my point, B550 being earlier directly results in anything required for 400 series to be done and us to be notified sooner.

 

We literally just got the B550 chipset announcement, we can't even buy products with them yet you are confident they had the time and resources and even the willingness to direct towards 400 series support for a currently unannounced architecture?

 

Wanting to be told sooner and actually being able to be told sooner as still and have always been different things.

 

 

When I am installing a 60G game on my new computer,  I know straight away it isn't going to install on my old system with only a 20G HDD.   I don't need to try and shoe horn it in to find that out.  And whilst I don't proclaim to be a software engineers arsehole, I am still fairly confident that the engineers at AMD knew damned well it wasn't going to work when they were having so much trouble making it work on the B550, I don;t think they needed to touch a b450 to know it was going to have problems. 

 

Besides all that, we still don't even know if it isn't possible or just impractical from their view point.

[maartendc]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

 

It really doesn't matter if the bios issue is real or not (looks like it was wise not assume they canned support purely arbitrarily), the marketing was clearly there and no effort was made, beyond changing a few ambiguous words in marketing material, to properly educate consumers regarding that aforementioned support promise.

 

I haven't read this whole thread, but I have to agree with this. It was not made clear.

 

As someone who has only been vaguely paying attention to what AMD had been saying, and as someone who owns a 2700X and B450 motherboard...

 

My impression has always been that AM4 would be supported "up to a certain point." Up to 2020 or up to Zen2 (3000 series) at least. I don't think they ever explicitely promised that Zen3 was supported by older motherboards. But they never NOT promised it either. It was just left vague, and when it was clear that Zen3 would use AM4 socket, I was assuming that my B450 motherboard would support Zen3 (4000 series CPU).

 

Now that I think about it, I was just assuming that AM4 is AM4, and all AM4 motherboards would support all AM4 CPU's. Turns out they are not.

 

Personally, I am not super upset, because I could still get a beastly 3950X as an upgrade over my 2700X if I ever wanted to... But it still sucks and AMD should have been more clear.

[Bombastinator]

5 hours ago, tehxf said:

No, You just cherry picked a comment off the back of a response. Original post is below... Its not about being worse or better, which was never the case or stated. IT WAS THAT AS A BUSINESS THEY ARE THE SAME, THEY ARE OUT TO MAKE MONEY. Jesus, the walls of text from someone that is clearly lacking basic comprehension skills. It was a simple statement and you have taken the last day to try and justify your opinion with irrelevant information.

 

 

First of all, that wasn’t the post I was talking about.
 

 I was speaking about only part of a different statement.  “Cherry picking”? Of course.  Except that’s not cherry picking.  it’s finding a problem with part of a statement.  This is a common problem I’m seeing a lot lately with people trying to inject BS into a conversation.

 

The move is to state a bromide, but the payload is a word change or an extremism or something like that.   So not a completely false statement, just a partially false one.  Then the riff on the false part after it is injected creating BS.  
You complain that I called you out on only part of your statement.

 

Yup. 
 

Thats EXACTLY what I did.  The BS part.

 

 

 

[tehxf]

9 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

First of all, that wasn’t the post I was talking about.
 

 I was speaking about only part of a different statement.  “Cherry picking”? Of course.  Except that’s not cherry picking.  it’s finding a problem with part of a statement.  This is a common problem I’m seeing a lot lately with people trying to inject BS into a conversation.

 

The move is to state a bromide, but the payload is a word change or an extremism or something like that.   So not a completely false statement, just a partially false one.  Then the riff on the false part after it is injected creating BS.  
You complain that I called you out on only part of your statement.

 

Yup. 
 

Thats EXACTLY what I did.  The BS part.

 

 

 

No shit, because you are taking it out of context. THATS THE POINT. how brain dead are you.

 

[tehxf]

2 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

Except those who follow tech news, look at architectural developments, and watch reviews were all told B450 & X470 were a better value because you could expect Zen 3 support from it, I'm sure tons of people bought B450 based on build guides from reviewers. Of course people are pissed when everyone had the assumption and the marketing was there saying there would be support, with nothing from AMD saying otherwise right until B550 launches, this is the problem I have, AMD had months to figure it out with the delays and enough time to tell board partners to change marketing, instead of laying the blame on the consumer.

The excuse of "but Intel does it" still isn't a very good one, it doesn't make it any more right for AMD to do the same thing.

EDIT:  I understand they're out to make money like any other company I get that, and Intel is worse with their dropping support for chipsets because people found especially with Z270 newer CPU's could be run on it with modded bios.

im not saying its right or wrong...

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, tehxf said:

No shit, because you are taking it out of context. THATS THE POINT. how brain dead are you.

 

ROFL.

 

I don’t care what “your point” was.  “Your point” wasn’t your point to begin with. It was already stated stuff.  Your addition to things was what I pointed out.  That was the bit that was yours.

 

No denial of what I said.  Just a bunch of profanity and personal attack that attempt to distract from the issue.

 

 You got caught and you’re whining about it with personal attacks that have nothing to do with the reality of the statement.  

 

Boiler plate “oh shit I got caught” behavior. 

[tehxf]

26 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

ROFL.

 

I don’t care what “your point” was.  “Your point” wasn’t your point to begin with. It was already stated stuff.  Your addition to things was what I pointed out.  That was the bit that was yours.

 

No denial of what I said.  Just a bunch of profanity and personal attack that attempt to distract from the issue.

 

 You got caught and you’re whining about it with personal attacks that have nothing to do with the reality of the statement.  

 

Boiler plate “oh shit I got caught” behavior. 

Alright king tutt explain to me what I said

[Bombastinator]

12 minutes ago, tehxf said:

Alright king tutt explain to me what I said

“King tut”. That’s weird.  And suspicious. 
 

Dog whistle maybe?  I don’t know.  If so it’s a move not unlike the binary thinking thing.  An attempt to slide in a concept under the radar and avoid having it looked at.   like the term “Karen” which is a neonazi thing that is a riff on the world war 2 “mushroom people” stuff the nazis used to attack Jews with.

 

i don’t know what “king tut” means in this instance.  Could be anything.  I know who the person was:
 

King tut was the last pharoh.  Was apparently in the process of being slowly poisoned by several different entities when he died.   Lived many thousands of years ago.   He never actually said much that I’m aware of. The life of the person is clearly non topical so you mean something else.  Dog whistles and code words are a common psychological technique.  Word pictures that pack in a bunch of concepts and throw them at the recipient in a mass making them hard to disentangle.   A marketing technique rather than an argumentative one.  I can’t take apart “king tut” because there’s an unsaid backstory to it.  I don’t know what is meant by it in this instance but it’s really suspicious. 
 

 

 

Let’s go back to the original thing though since the whole “king tut” thing is shrouded in I don’t even know what.

 

You attempted to turn the concept of AMDs behavior into a binary.  I am suspicious of binary concepts for the reasons stated.  It wasn’t a complaint about the concept it was a complaint about what was used to present the concept.  Got held up too if you look at later posts.  It really was more complicated than that.

[tehxf]

4 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

“King tut”. That’s weird.  And suspicious. 
 

Dog whistle maybe?  I don’t know.  If so it’s a move not unlike the binary thinking thing.  An attempt to slide in a concept under the radar and avoid having it looked at.   like the term “Karen” which is a neonazi thing that is a riff on the world war 2 “mushroom people” stuff the nazis used to attack Jews with.

 

i don’t know what “king tut” means in this instance.  Could be anything.  I know who the person was:
 

King tut was the last pharoh.  Was apparently in the process of being slowly poisoned by several different entities when he died.   Lived many thousands of years ago.   He never actually said much that I’m aware of. The life of the person is clearly non topical so you mean something else.  Dog whistles and code words are a common psychological technique.  Word pictures that pack in a bunch of concepts and throw them at the recipient in a mass making them hard to disentangle.   A marketing technique rather than an argumentative one.  I can’t take apart “king tut” because there’s an unsaid backstory to it.  I don’t know what is meant by it in this instance but it’s really suspicious. 
 

 

 

Let’s go back to the original thing though since the whole “king tut” thing is shrouded in I don’t even know what.

 

You attempted to turn the concept of AMDs behavior into a binary.  I am suspicious of binary concepts for the reasons stated.  It wasn’t a complaint about the concept it was a complaint about what was used to present the concept.  Got held up too if you look at later posts.  It really was more complicated than that.

You are suspicious of business that operate the same, making a similar product and expecting a different outcome. 
 

[Bombastinator]

6 minutes ago, tehxf said:

You are suspicious of business that operate the same, making a similar product and expecting a different outcome. 
 

No.

 

 I had issues with the phrases you used to do that.  

  
Big ones.  
 

I’m not sure your statements were ever about the actual topic.  Everything you said about the topic was stuff already said.  It was the how that was different, and it was the bit with a subtle problem.  I pointed that out.  Then you complained about me personally for doing that, and then you may have done it again.  I don’t know if your request for clarification even had anything to do with what you wanted.  It may have just been an excuse to say “king tut”.

[Blademaster91]

On 5/9/2020 at 4:15 AM, mr moose said:

For me it's mostly just looking at  history,  I gain nothing from assuming it is an artificial problem. I didn't accuse Intel of doing it for sales and I won't accuse AMD of doing it for sales either (that's what happens when we are not biased), but they certainly left the door open and the roadmap sign out long enough after they knew they weren't going to support gen 3 which left a lot of consumers with half the product they paid for.

 

 

To be honest, whether this amounts to anything for individuals really comes down to the individual, I said it a million times in every Intel thread on the subject,  Hardly anyone upgrades their CPU that often that they are financially worse off because of this.  My gripe is with the people who recommended the B450 (and even some still recommending the cheaper B350) thinking it was guaranteed, and the way AMD handled it leaving people to think it was guaranteed.  

 

 

I also have a pet gripe with idiots trying to to deflect from AMD and throw shit at Intel because they don't like the idea that their precious AMD has done what they accused Intel of doing.

I'm not accusing AMD or Intel doing it for sales, I get why Intel changes their chipsets, Intel doesn't want to have the extra hassle of trying to fit a bunch of CPU code into a bios chip without sacrificing any features, I'm not sure but it's probably also for stability, and so the average user doesn't buy a board then wonder why their system doesn't boot because it needs a bios update that requires another cpu.

I agree people should build the best they can afford, although I understand those that just bought B450 would be upset over this, but I guess the good thing about B550 is it gives you pci-e 4.0 without having to buy an expensive X570 board.

 

[tehxf]

16 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

No.

 

 I had issues with the phrases you used to do that.  

  
Big ones.  
 

I’m not sure your statements were ever about the actual topic.  Everything you said about the topic was stuff already said.  It was the how that was different, and it was the bit with a subtle problem.  I pointed that out.  Then you complained about me personally for doing that, and then you may have done it again.  I don’t know if your request for clarification even had anything to do with what you wanted.  It may have just been an excuse to say “king tut”.

Thanks for clarifying my position. Exactly how I first intended it. Unsure how it upset you so much to begin with.

[Bombastinator]

I think this thing has the same time period issue as covid.  We didn’t know about it till it already happened, we can find out about it, but that takes a lot of time, and by the time we do it has done something else.   By the time we know if b450 boards can even hold and implement 4xxx microcode b550 will have been out for a while and b450 will he legacy. 

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, tehxf said:

Thanks for clarifying my position. Exactly how I first intended it. Unsure how it upset you so much to begin with.

It was all about the binary thinking.

 It’s useful but dangerous because it has holes in it.  Most every time someone says something like “it’s either this way or it’s not” the answer is usually “it’s mostly that way but there’s a little bit of not and that is the part you are about to stand on”

 

it’s a lot like how when ever you see an article where the headline is a question the answer is most often “no.  It was a stupid idea to begin with” not always, but it says to me “have your radar out, the area ahead is strewn with BS and it’s going to be easy to step in.

 

You used binary thinking so I activated my radar and sure enough there was a small hole. 

[leadeater]

4 hours ago, mr moose said:

I am still fairly confident that the engineers at AMD knew damned well it wasn't going to work when they were having so much trouble making it work on the B550, I don;t think they needed to touch a b450 to know it was going to have problems. 

It's not up to the engineers to make that call and I can assure you if you ask "Is it possible" the answer is yes. But as explained in the Gamers Nexus video, a lot of the same things I pointed out, it's not that simple.

 

Knowing about the problems is only part of this. Dedicating time and resources to 400 series Zen 3 AGESA development over 500 series while they are still working on finalizing and releasing B550 just is not going to happen. The engineers can only make recommendations and indications of requirements and implications from their area. Making the call to support a product is in the realm of product managers not engineers and they need to clear that through multiple different parts of the company, also covered in the video. Some of these discussions could have been delayed, held back or actively not addressed until 500 series product development was finalized.

 

The whole idea that just because the engineers knew about the problem is flawed and ignores so many other factors.

 

At least they told us now not at the Ryzen 4000 launch, which would be PR suicide. No matter when or how the dropping of 400 series was always going to generate complaints, not unwarranted either but that doesn't mean it wasn't justified and was not done in a timely manor to what was actually possible. I know within AMD this would have been known for a while but I'm very skeptical it was finalized any sooner than months ago, not last year and unlikely Jan/Feb (maybe Feb, maybe).

[spartaman64]

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/msi-drops-functions-from-bios-of-amds-300-and-400-series-motherboards-to-support-ryzen-3000.html

I just found this they didnt even have enough room for the ryzen 3000 and had to drop features 

idk why they dont just remove the fancy graphics to make more room but they probably wont do it because it hurts their image or something

[Bombastinator]

32 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/msi-drops-functions-from-bios-of-amds-300-and-400-series-motherboards-to-support-ryzen-3000.html

I just found this they didnt even have enough room for the ryzen 3000 and had to drop features 

idk why they dont just remove the fancy graphics to make more room but they probably wont do it because it hurts their image or something

Notice in the article they are referring to the 16mb bioses.  I think it very very unlikely that it is technically possible to fit the 4xxx microcode into one of those bios chips.  There are some that are 32mb though.   Could it be done for them?  That is another question.  There may be other technical problems as well though.  Data is scarce at this level.

[NumLock21]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

Notice in the article they are referring to the 16mb bioses.  I think it very very unlikely that it is technically possible to fit the 4xxx microcode into one of those bios chips.  There are some that are 32mb though.   Could it be done for them?  That is another question.  There may be other technical problems as well though.  Data is scarce at this level.

I haven't check all of them, but the ones I've did check, MSI and Gigabyte bios is 128MB. MSI and Asus is 128-256MB.