Asus Caught Being Malicious - Zephyrus G15 has fan vents blocked by black paper. Reason Unknown

[Kisai]

29 minutes ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

i still think they should have mentioned those side effects on the box or a warning sticker inside as to why those vent shouldn't be removed. 

"Warning, using an ultrabook will cook your nuts"

 

Also in the same line of "overlabeling", it would not surprise me if it was in the manual.

[5x5]

If only Asus had just put a copper cover on top of the VRMs like every single other laptop OEM and like their own Strix laptops they wouldn't have to overheat the laptop to cool the VRM. Still stupid at best and malicious towards the end user at worst

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

i still think they should have mentioned those side effects on the box or a warning sticker inside as to why those vent shouldn't be removed. 

 

But what would that warning look like?

 

All laptops have limitations that are the result of size and power draw/saving that are balanced against end cost.  Some laptops perform better but are thicker and cost 1/3rd more, some are slower and thinner but are cheaper.  If they try to articulate all the conditions that result in each specific design then all laptops should have stickers that basically include the design notes from R+D.

 

 

 

 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, 5x5 said:

If only Asus had just put a copper cover on top of the VRMs like every single other laptop OEM and like their own Strix laptops they wouldn't have to overheat the laptop to cool the VRM. Still stupid at best and malicious towards the end user at worst

And then the product would be more expensive missing the target sales point.   We could ask why acer don't do this for their $300 laptops, because if they did they wouldn't be $300 laptops.   Now if this was actually a premium laptop and cost more than A$2000 I would probably agree, they should have better performance, but as it is it's just an average laptops with an upper tier CPU. There are plenty around with similar specs that perform just as bad/well  in the same price range.

[5x5]

37 minutes ago, mr moose said:

And then the product would be more expensive missing the target sales point.   We could ask why acer don't do this for their $300 laptops, because if they did they wouldn't be $300 laptops.   Now if this was actually a premium laptop and cost more than A$2000 I would probably agree, they should have better performance, but as it is it's just an average laptops with an upper tier CPU. There are plenty around with similar specs that perform just as bad/well  in the same price range.

Actually, that is entirely false. The extra cast would amount to 20-30$ at MOST for a copper plate. The price point is a laughable argument as to why the VRMs are left open.

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

i still think they should have mentioned those side effects on the box or a warning sticker inside as to why those vent shouldn't be removed. 

I don't think we should need labels going "hey, don't modify this product because it can have negative consequences". 

Imagine the massive list of things for example a var manufacturer would have to write down. 

"hey don't remove the door on this car because it could result in X, Y or Z" 

"also, don't remove the engine cover because then X or Y or Z" 

"Oh and don't remove the steering wheel because Z". 

The list would go on and on and on. 

 

It's way more simple to just assume that if a customer starts stripping out parts of the product, they are on their own and can't complain if things stop working as intended. 

[mr moose]

27 minutes ago, 5x5 said:

Actually, that is entirely false. The extra cast would amount to 20-30$ at MOST for a copper plate. The price point is a laughable argument as to why the VRMs are left open.

If only designing and producing a product for the world market was that simple.   The actual cost in parts would be less than that,  but the extra time in design, the overall cost in production, then placing that product in the market has its boundaries. they are solid and set by companies that understand the importance of working within budgets and meeting price targets.  To you it's $30 in a $2000 product, to them it's a significant change in sales because people quibble over $30. $30 is tangible to a customer while 5% change in CPU clock speed is an abstract concept that means literally nothing to majority of their consumers.

[leadeater]

5 hours ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

i still think they should have mentioned those side effects on the box or a warning sticker inside as to why those vent shouldn't be removed. 

Why? What normal thought process and standard user expectation is there that it is common to take a dremel to your device and cut holes in it? This doesn't need a warning anywhere.

 

They aren't removable, you actually have to damage the device to open it which will 100% void your warranty.

[oby209]

I think they did this to match the temps of their zephyrus m15(intel variant), as the intel variant m15 was hotter, and the amd variant g15 was way cooler when the fans are not covered, i think its a marketing strategy, nobody will buy the m15 if the g15 was faster, cooler and cheaper right?, but in terms of speed they cant do nothing about it as amd's ryzen4000 eats intel's 10th gen easily no contest, so the thermal is their only way to make it look bad so the m15 will still be a choice for consumers. Damn Asus, I still go for amd.

[5x5]

10 hours ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

Here is an interview with one of Dell lead thermal engineers on how their design process works. The "manufacturers are evil/dumb because they blocked on purpose to screw with customers/manufacturers" is absurd.

 

 

Considering Dell are currently having massive thermal issues across almost every single line of laptops, I don't think they are qualified to speak on the matter. The G3, G5 and G7 overheat, the Alienware overheat, the XPS models overheat and half of the inspirons also overheat. Maybe Dell should focus on fixing their disastrous designs before commenting on anything relating to thermals

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, 5x5 said:

Considering Dell are currently having massive thermal issues across almost every single line of laptops, I don't think they are qualified to speak on the matter. The G3, G5 and G7 overheat, the Alienware overheat, the XPS models overheat and half of the inspirons also overheat. Maybe Dell should focus on fixing their disastrous designs before commenting on anything relating to thermals

So you’re saying that “dual flow” system mentioned doesn’t work well.  Interesting.

[5x5]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

So you’re saying that “dual flow” system mentioned doesn’t work well.  Interesting.

To put it this way, if it did, the G5 wouldn't be running at 105*C and the XPS 15 with no GPU (iGPU model) wouldn't be running at 95*C

[5x5]

45 minutes ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

And Nintendo make abysmally bad controllers and still sells them like hotcakes... Most people don't bother because they don't stress it for a long time to overhead, and they care more about size/weight. He said they're going to change next designs thinking on more static scenarios (work from home). On the meantime, they're working on tools to change power/thermal profiles so that users can manage things better for their use case.

You don't get it, the designs are so shit that everyone is complaining. People can't run CSGO without their 1500$ gaming laptop reaching 105*C and throttling to 800MHz. No amount of power throttling will solve that. Dell need a massive redesign or they'll likely face a class action lawsuit as most people under online are fed up with their issues and useless support

[Bombastinator]

9 hours ago, gabrielcarvfer said:

I get it, I have a few of Dells and all of them are like this. Everybody complains about everything all time, but most still buy the same stuff, which means they don't really care or are lying.

 

For the most part, the big OEMs assume an office with AC, moderate use with occasional bursts, even though they brand it as "for gaming/professional use/etc". Dell designs are a lot better these days. Try to do anything on a Vostro 3550... fans are a joke and opening it up is a complete nightmare.

 

What really bothers me is OEMs overlooking how much heat they could dissipate on the front and the back side of the screen (like in phones/tablets and the reason I love my fanless Acer Switch 5), keyboard and back cover (like Linus did on the recent Macbook "mod", but using heatpipes to distribute heat evenly across the entire chassis). Ton of mass and surface that could be used to help cooling...

 

There are giant problems with the use of the screen involving the hinge.  I heard some company was looking at use of graphite cloth to move heat across the hinge.  Seems to either not be ready or not have the necessary reliability (I suspect the latter). As for the rest of the case that was tried too.  Do you remember all the “burning lap” complaints?

 

UPDATE:  suddenly wondering how much heat a high copper brass piano hinge permanently lubricated with silicon oil could transfer.  Probably not a lot.  Or enough.  It’s the kind of thing someone would already have tried.  I do wonder though.  It might not do much but it could be made as wide as the laptop.  That could actually work.

[spartaman64]

On 7/4/2020 at 2:22 AM, mr moose said:

That video and this thread reminds me of amateur car modifiers,  all the newbies claiming they can improve the performance or fuel efficiency while ignoring the unwanted side effects.

 

Basically Asus have settled at a point that gives consumers the most reliable experience for a price.

If you don't like it buy a different laptop.  There has to be something out there with better cooling giving users the full CPU/GPU without VRM throttling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so i guess you only install stock cpu coolers since an aftermarket cooler could have unforeseen side effects and the manufacturer knows better Kappa

[mr moose]

19 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

so i guess you only install stock cpu coolers since an aftermarket cooler could have unforeseen side effects and the manufacturer knows better Kappa

I don't fit any coolers to laptops.  Kappa Kappa Lambda theta.

 

And BTW, yes, I have never bought nor installed an aftermarket CPU cooler.

[Loote]

So I've been thinking about it and here's my opinion:

1. With laptops you always have to look for tests, it may throttle, overheat, be hot to the touch or whatever mix of the aforementioned things. The only way a new high performance laptop won't throttle is for it to be throttled from the beginning, what I mean is, we get a bit of time with higher clocks while the machine is cold and then it settles on lower clocks under load, not throttling would mean no turbo rather than a faster machine. What's more, during everyday use the bursts may be short enough to not feel the impact. Of course there are machines with hardware way more powerful than their cooling solution and they're making me mad.
2. The manufacturer is supposed to make sure the machine will work for at least the warranty period, normally you'd expect VRMs and the rest to have a bit of overhead, but I guess Asus' solution is working as weird as it is(I decide to trust their response that it's needed to cool VRMs). It still sounds like an ugly fix, as if they designed it with wrong VRMs and the piece of paper was an easier way to correct this than adding more cooling/different VRMs, possibly modifying the whole motherboard. In the end most customers don't even understand what CPU they have in a laptop and then a big number will be happy with the CPU model without checking the reviews for thermals, that's what hurt me a lot when looking for the cheapest laptop with x GPU, there are some models with unacceptable performance, what I'd call 'traps', but the poor man pays twice.
3. The overall situation is a bit funny, the conspiracy theories based on Intel's past and the sad conclusion that removing said paper is harmful to the device.
Funny for someone who didn't but that laptop. If they managed to cool VRMs for Intel CPU without a piece of paper, it is doable for Ryzen too, but I doubt it's the effect of malicious behaviour of Asus. I would however agree that this laptop isn't good to make comparisons between processors from two manufacturers because one of them is bottlenecked by weird design.

[CTR640]

I see this as a planned obsolescence. They want you to "upgrade" to a newer model. Extreme greedness at its finest.

I had a HP laptop and one screw was impossible to open it to remove dust. Since then I got tired of "gaming" laptops and moved on to desktop.

For now 6 years no issue with it and dust are easy to remove.

[Statik]

On 5/1/2020 at 5:51 PM, AlexTheGreatish said:

-snip-

I never even remotely considered this. I have a G15 and while I've never burned myself on the top/bottom, if I touch the side exhaust with my mouse hand for anything over 1-2 seconds it definitely "burns".

[Kisai]

On 7/5/2020 at 10:51 AM, gabrielcarvfer said:

I get it, I have a few of Dells and all of them are like this. Everybody complains about everything all time, but most still buy the same stuff, which means they don't really care or are lying.

 

For the most part, the big OEMs assume an office with AC, moderate use with occasional bursts, even though they brand it as "for gaming/professional use/etc". Dell designs are a lot better these days. Try to do anything on a Vostro 3550... fans are a joke and opening it up is a complete nightmare.

 

What really bothers me is OEMs overlooking how much heat they could dissipate on the front and the back side of the screen (like in phones/tablets and the reason I love my fanless Acer Switch 5), keyboard and back cover (like Linus did on the recent Macbook "mod", but using heatpipes to distribute heat evenly across the entire chassis). Ton of mass and surface that could be used to help cooling...

 

 

The Dell Precisions are in no better shape. Only the Precision 7xxx's have "less problems" and the "mystery" problem machines are all 7720's at the office. The Precision 5530's have their own set of thin-and-light related problems.

 

Honestly, this is a problem that stems from the demand for thin-and-light ultrabook designs, which all universally suck. Ever since they removed the optical drive, laptops have had insufficient cooling capacity to run the way users mostly use them, and it's like that venn diagram of "cheap, fast, good ; pick two"

 

On 7/5/2020 at 8:38 PM, spartaman64 said:

so i guess you only install stock cpu coolers since an aftermarket cooler could have unforeseen side effects and the manufacturer knows better Kappa

I wouldn't recommend a third party cooler unless you are aiming to do overclocking or are buying a high end part to put in a low-end chassis. The reason mostly comes down to installation difficulty. You are far more likely to damage the CPU if you don't know what you're doing. With the AMD AM4 chips apparently gravity will actually pull the chip out of the motherboard and bend the pins in the process, so you need a third party cooler that clips from the underside of the board to prevent that. Intel's previous and current Core2/Core lines with the "push pin" cooler risk actually cracking the PCB and wearing down the plastic holding the pin in place if you have to take the cooler off more than once. 

 

If you only intend to install it once and forget about it though, the stock cooler is fine. Your average office PC will be fine until it collects an inch of dust inside it. Laptops, not a chance.

 

What would fix a lot of cooling issues in laptops would be to just direct the heat towards a cooling plate that is magnetically attached to give the laptop more cooling surface. Remove the plate and the cpu and gpu throttle back down.

 

[leadeater]

37 minutes ago, Kisai said:

and it's like that venn diagram of "cheap, fast, good ; pick two"

lol so true, it's why I refuse to buy laptops or when I do it's the most dirt cheap crap possible since if I'm going to waste my money I'll waste as little as possible.

[spartaman64]

On 7/5/2020 at 11:01 PM, mr moose said:

I don't fit any coolers to laptops.  Kappa Kappa Lambda theta.

 

And BTW, yes, I have never bought nor installed an aftermarket CPU cooler.

the point is do you believe that nobody should use an aftermarket cooler because they will destroy their systems or something

3 hours ago, Kisai said:

 

I wouldn't recommend a third party cooler unless you are aiming to do overclocking or are buying a high end part to put in a low-end chassis. The reason mostly comes down to installation difficulty. You are far more likely to damage the CPU if you don't know what you're doing. With the AMD AM4 chips apparently gravity will actually pull the chip out of the motherboard and bend the pins in the process, so you need a third party cooler that clips from the underside of the board to prevent that. Intel's previous and current Core2/Core lines with the "push pin" cooler risk actually cracking the PCB and wearing down the plastic holding the pin in place if you have to take the cooler off more than once. 

 

If you only intend to install it once and forget about it though, the stock cooler is fine. Your average office PC will be fine until it collects an inch of dust inside it. Laptops, not a chance.

 

What would fix a lot of cooling issues in laptops would be to just direct the heat towards a cooling plate that is magnetically attached to give the laptop more cooling surface. Remove the plate and the cpu and gpu throttle back down.

 

what sort of mounting brackets do those coolers use wtf do you super glue the cooler onto the cpu? and i prefer not to have a hurricane next to me especially since i use open back headphones and the cpu would hit 88 celcius with the stock amd cooler which would be fine for a lot of people since they are fine with 95 celcius even but it makes me uncomfortable 

[Kisai]

5 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

what sort of mounting brackets do those coolers use wtf do you super glue the cooler onto the cpu? and i prefer not to have a hurricane next to me especially since i use open back headphones and the cpu would hit 88 celcius with the stock amd cooler which would be fine for a lot of people since they are fine with 95 celcius even but it makes me uncomfortable 

 

Well if you're going to mount a large cooler with it's own pair of 120mm fans, you need enough space for it to fit and since it's heavier than the stock cooler, it will. Even the stock cooler will.

 

Here's one (of quite a few) examples:

https://community.amd.com/thread/231853

Quote

I just got done trying to change coolers on my 2700x. After removing the latches, the heat sink would not pull off the CPU with a normal amount of force. I slighted turned the cooler to the left and right to try to break the seal. When it would give, I gently pulled straight up. However,the CPU had melded with the heatsink and was ripped out during removal. I have a couple of bent pins on one corner. I assume AMD is going to tell me to kick rocks as far as warranty goes but I figured I would check.

With one answer that sheds some light on it:

Quote

sounds like you were using liquid metal for TIM - known to destroy AMD processors.

More answers in the thread mention thermal paste adhering the cpu to the cooler.

 

Anyway, not my personal experience with the TIM acting as superglue. My personal experience is with third party coolers that weigh twice as much as the stock cooler and having to install additional mounting equipment that feels more solid than the stock intel coolers, which intels are held by plastic pins.

 

[spartaman64]

14 minutes ago, Kisai said:

 

Well if you're going to mount a large cooler with it's own pair of 120mm fans, you need enough space for it to fit and since it's heavier than the stock cooler, it will. Even the stock cooler will.

 

Here's one (of quite a few) examples:

https://community.amd.com/thread/231853

With one answer that sheds some light on it:

More answers in the thread mention thermal paste adhering the cpu to the cooler.

 

Anyway, not my personal experience with the TIM acting as superglue. My personal experience is with third party coolers that weigh twice as much as the stock cooler and having to install additional mounting equipment that feels more solid than the stock intel coolers, which intels are held by plastic pins.

 

what? that not due to the weight of the cooler its because the amd stock cooler thermalpaste is like glue i had trouble with it also and had to twist the cooler a bit to get it off which was a bit scary. but in fact this proves the opposite that the stock cooler is more likely to damage the cpu than a 3rd party cooler LUL. theres no way a cooler would bend the pins on a cpu no matter how heavy it is because its attached to the motherboard not the cpu. if you get a cooler that weighs a ton its going to break the motherboard

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

what? that not due to the weight of the cooler its because the amd stock cooler thermalpaste is like glue i had trouble with it also and had to twist the cooler a bit to get it off which was a bit scary. but in fact this proves the opposite that the stock cooler is more likely to damage the cpu than a 3rd party cooler LUL. theres no way a cooler would bend the pins on a cpu no matter how heavy it is because its attached to the motherboard not the cpu. if you get a cooler that weighs a ton its going to break the motherboard

I get the impression different things are being takes about here.  It sort of sounds like you two agree, it’s just a question of wording.  As to the stock cooler thermal paste being a problem wouldn’t that only apply to prebuilts or instances where the thermal paste that came with the cooler was used?