Guess we don't need video cables anymore - USB4 arriving with Displayport 2.0

[williamcll]

Other than having a bandwidth equal to thunderbolt 3 of 40Gbps, USB4 will also be able to pass Displayport 2.0 signals by turning both inbound and outbound data cables into outbound video signals. It is expected to arrive in 2021 and can support both HDR8K60FPS as well as (compressed) 16k60FPS

Quote

As the tech industry gears up for the launch of the new USB4 standard, a few more parts first need to fall into place. Along with the core specification itself, there is the matter of alternate modes, which add further functionality to USB Type-C host ports by allowing the data pins to be used to carry other types of signals. Keeping pace with the updates to USB4, some of the alt modes are being updated as well, and this process is starting with the granddaddy of them all: DisplayPort Alt Mode.

 

The very first USB-C alt mode, DisplayPort Alt Mode was introduced in 2014. By remapping the USB-C high speed data pins from USB data to DisplayPort data, it became possible to use a USB-C port as a DisplayPort video output, and in some cases even mix the two to get both USB 3.x signaling and DisplayPort signaling over the same cable. As a result of DisplayPort Alt Mode’s release, the number of devices with video output has exploded, and in laptops especially, this has become the preferred mode for driving video outputs when a laptop doesn’t include a dedicated HDMI port.

 

Now, as USB4 prepares to enter service, DisplayPort Alt Mode is being updated as well. One of the many big changes in the USB4 spec is that DisplayPort is a first-class citizen, with USB4 able to encapsulate DisplayPort video data like Thunderbolt 3 already does. So in order to keep pace with USB4 – where things are a bit more rigorous and well-defined this time around – VESA has needed to tighten the Alt Mode standard to match, as well as to update the specification to incorporate DisplayPort 2.0 and its UHBR signaling standards. The end product, fittingly enough, will be called DisplayPort Alt Mode 2.0.

Overall, the introduction of DisplayPort Alt Mode 2.0 means that there will be two different ways to pipe DisplayPort video over a USB4 cable, giving system builders and users an unusual degree of flexibility in designing devices and choosing how to wire them up. As previously discussed, USB4 can already carry encapsulated DisplayPort data within a USB4 signal. However with the introduction of DP Alt Mode 2.0, it also becomes possible to skip the middle man, so to speak, by reconfiguring a USB-C port to pass raw DisplayPort video.

 

But why even have multiple modes to begin with, you might ask? The matter comes down to performance as well as hardware costs. From a bandwidth standpoint, USB4 maxes out at 40Gbps of bandwidth in any one direction a bidirectional connection. So the most bandwidth available for DisplayPort video, assuming it saturates the connection, is only half of what DisplayPort 2.0 is capable of. A raw DisplayPort connection via Alt Mode 2.0, on the other hand, doubles that maximum bandwidth to 80Gbps since all lanes can be used to send data to a display. So if nothing else, Alt Mode is needed to drive ultra-high resolution connections over USB-C, such as 8K @ 60Hz with HDR.

Source: https://www.anandtech.com/show/15752/displayport-alt-mode-20-spec-released

https://vesa.org/featured-articles/vesa-releases-updated-displayport-alt-mode-spec-to-bring-displayport-2-0-performance-to-usb4-and-new-usb-type-c-devices/

Thoughts: Maybe in a few years all the ports on a graphics card would be replaced with USBs instead of just one VR-link port. But first 16k monitors have to be cheap and usable before any of these happen. I also wonder will phones support this as well?

[TVwazhere]

I'm just glad they didnt name it USB 3.1 Gen 3a

[BobVonBob]

9 minutes ago, TVwazhere said:

I'm just glad they didnt name it USB 3.1 Gen 3a

Nah we're already on USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 so it would have been USB 3.2 Gen DisplayPort 2.0x2x2.

[Taf the Ghost]

Cables that meet Spec are going to be expensive for a long, long time.

[Guest]

I swear if they change the connector again though....

 

Are they going to stick with this connector till the end of time finally?

[3rrant]

9 minutes ago, fpo said:

I swear if they change the connector again though....

 

Are they going to stick with this connector till the end of time finally?

No. But hopefully it will live up to a decade before reaching it's full capabilities.

[bcredeur97]

They need to make monitors that are able to be powered from the device that they are plugged into. Like your average monitor in a workplace. would be so much less cables at work, where it can be kinda hard to manage everything beautifully in some situations (at least it is where I work)

 

or you know not needing a power strip if you have 2 monitors and a mini desktop. Instead of 3 power cords, just 1.

[GDRRiley]

3 minutes ago, bcredeur97 said:

They need to make monitors that are able to be powered from the device that they are plugged into. Like your average monitor in a workplace. would be so much less cables at work, where it can be kinda hard to manage everything beautifully in some situations (at least it is where I work)

USB C does this but it is usually set up so a monitor will power a laptop.

nothing says you can't make a GPU have powered USB-C out but dual would mean an extra 8 pin PCIE for power even then each could only send 75W.

[williamcll]

1 hour ago, bcredeur97 said:

They need to make monitors that are able to be powered from the device that they are plugged into. Like your average monitor in a workplace. would be so much less cables at work, where it can be kinda hard to manage everything beautifully in some situations (at least it is where I work)

 

or you know not needing a power strip if you have 2 monitors and a mini desktop. Instead of 3 power cords, just 1.

Have you tried a portable monitor before?

[Guest]

Haters will say why not just use Thunderbolt 3 if it’s the same thing.

[Master Disaster]

Honestly, at this point Thunderbolt, USB & Display Port should all unify into a single connector and become Super Serial Bus or some crap. TB & USB are essentially the same thing anyway at this point.

[DeScruff]

7 hours ago, bcredeur97 said:

They need to make monitors that are able to be powered from the device that they are plugged into. Like your average monitor in a workplace. would be so much less cables at work, where it can be kinda hard to manage everything beautifully in some situations (at least it is where I work)

 

or you know not needing a power strip if you have 2 monitors and a mini desktop. Instead of 3 power cords, just 1.

Its funny. I remember Apple did something like this 20 years ago. the ADC (Apple Display Connector) It was basically a modified DVI cable that carried Analog and Digital video, USB, and Power to a monitor. I have an ATi Rage 128 pro card with that port.

I like the concept, but the monitor still needs to be able to be plugged into the wall in case the person is using a laptop.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, RorzNZ said:

Haters will say why not just use Thunderbolt 3 if it’s the same thing.

Because it isn't the same thing.

Thunderbolt uses different signaling and encoding from USB 4.0, despite what a lot of articles says. 

 

Thunderbolt 3 will also be less flexible than USB 4.0. For example Thunderbolt only supports displayport as the video signal. I am pretty sure Thunderbolt can only carry displayport, data (over the Thunderbolt protocol) and power. Nothing else.

USB 4.0 will be able to carry MHL, HDMI, DisplayPort,  VirtualLink, analog audio and a bunch of other protocols. 

 

USB 4.0 is objectively a better standard than Thunderbolt 3. Not only because of wider adoption (since it's USB) but also because of technical differences. 

 

 

This also means that USB 4.0 devices might not support Thunderbolt 3 devices, and vice versa. It depends on how it was/is implemented as well as if the manufacturer can (and will) release software updates to support the different encoding and signaling in the USB 4.0 and/or Thunderbolt controller. 

[mr moose]

18 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

This also means that USB 4.0 devices might not support Thunderbolt 3 devices, and vice versa. It depends on how it was/is implemented as well as if the manufacturer can (and will) release software updates to support the different encoding and signaling in the USB 4.0 and/or Thunderbolt controller. 

Wasn't this basically the original excuse MS used for not having USB-C ports earlier on?  I remember something about claiming there was not enough compatibility between many of the devices out there due lack of standardization.

 

 

[captain_to_fire]

So when will TV OEMs add USB 4? 

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Wasn't this basically the original excuse MS used for not having USB-C ports earlier on?  I remember something about claiming there was not enough compatibility between many of the devices out there due lack of standardization.

I don't know what Microsoft said so I can't comment on that. But USB-C is kind of a monster of s standard which includes a lot of optional stuff. Maybe that's what Microsoft were talking about? I don't think it's much of an issue though.

 

The problem I am referring to is specifically an issue (or opportunity I guess) unique to Thunderbolt 3 <-> USB 4.0. Since they are very similar, but not exactly the same, it will be possible for some devices to be compatible with one another. So your new and shiny USB 4 equipped laptop might be able to plug into a Thunderbolt 3 external storage device and work, but it might not. Your Thunderbolt 3 external device might be able to be updated to support a device that uses USB 4.0. But it might not.

 

Thunderbolt 3 devices might be able to be updated to support the USB 4.0 protocol.

USB 4.0 devices will (optionally) be able to be designed and coded to work with Thunderbolt 3 devices.

As long as two devices will be able to agree on one protocol (Thunderbolt 3 or USB 4.0) it will work. The problem might be that some devices can only do Thunderbolt 3 and some might only be able to do USB 4.0, and those devices won't work with each other.

[Windows9]

It would be good if there was some kind of modular cable for everything. PC PSUs, display, network, power delivery. That way you don't have t look for one specific cable. Imagine using a USB-C cable instead of a 24 pin on your motherboard

[LAwLz]

10 hours ago, Windows9 said:

Imagine using a USB-C cable instead of a 24 pin on your motherboard

I can totally imagine that....

 

[Derangel]

12 hours ago, captain_to_fire said:

So when will TV OEMs add USB 4? 

Probably never, at least en masse. TVs will stick with HDMI until the day the port dies because of wide compatibility.

[Kisai]

On 5/1/2020 at 10:33 AM, williamcll said:

 

Thoughts: Maybe in a few years all the ports on a graphics card would be replaced with USBs instead of just one VR-link port. But first 16k monitors have to be cheap and usable before any of these happen. I also wonder will phones support this as well?

That's the idea. Apple already does it, but RTX Quadro's already come with USB-C on them

 

In an ideal situation we will phase out all ports on the laptop, PC, Smartphone/tablet and SmartTV with USB-C. However there's still the big problem of interoperability and power requirements. The port may stay the same, but there was clearly one oversight with it.

 

You can't power a device over 120 watts with it. 

 

Ideally this will result in a re-think of PSU's. Instead of desktops and laptops having a variety of chargers, they will instead ship USB-C power bricks, and the wattage capable is determined by how many USB-C ports it has. So a desktop that requires 800 watts would have 8 ports on it if the PSU is external, silly, but it would solve problems where a battery backup is required. Flip it around though, where you buy the desktop that has 12 USB-C ports on it and another 4 USB-C ports on the dedicated GPU, you can instead use the PSU to power the desktop and monitor by making the PSU the "USB Hub (SuperDock)" so to speak. Desktops don't appear to be aiming in that direction however.

 

But it would solve damn near every problem with laptop connectivity. If the laptop is powered by a PSU that also powers the monitor, then it acts as a dock, and you can plug in your ethernet to the monitor or power supply, leaving the PCIe lanes free, and detach the laptop by disconnecting the USB-C cables rather than having to tow the power supply around.

 

USB-C ports on a monitor can also be powered by said central power superdock. The problem currently with USB-C -only monitors is that they require bizarre cables to add power. This solves that problem and enables them to be used with devices like tablets and smartphones which wouldn't be able to power a monitor under that configuration.

 

Which only leaves hardware security. At present Dell systems can be configured to permit TB docks or deny. There is no such switch for USB.

[NumLock21]

So USB 4 is basically thunderbolt 3, but thunderbolt 3 cannot be USB 4 or are they exactly the same thing. I hope they label those ports clearly by having new symbols next to it and for motherboard makers to color them like what they are doing right now, so it's easier to know which is which.

USB 3.1 Gen 1 in Blue
USB 3.1 Gen 2 in Teal
Thunderbolt 3 USB C in PINK
USB 4 USB C IN Purple

[Egg-Roll]

21 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I can totally imagine that....

 

Perfectly good opportunity missed to roast Apple in that picture... Esp considering everyone but them is trying to move to a universal cable lol...

[ravenshrike]

On 5/1/2020 at 12:47 PM, Taf the Ghost said:

Cables that meet Spec are going to be expensive for a long, long time.

Has anyone even figured out how to automate USB-C production yet or are the ends still assembled by hand?

[jake9000]

We already have a lot of this in in the current gen. Only really see it in docking stations, though. 

HP does sell the EliteDisplay with an integrated dock. The only problem is that all these USB docks are super fiddly and bringing their level of reliability to a monitor isn't as desirable as their marketing people would have you think. 

The throughput increase is welcome. A lot of docks have limits on resolution and quantity of monitors that they will support. As someone in the corporate world, people who want more than two monitors are kind of a pain to support right now. It's gotten a little better with the WD-19 but the wd-15 just didn't and the TB-16 has reliability similar to first run Xbox 360s. 

[Bitter]

So will this allow you to daisy chain monitors in a row if you have multiple monitors, that would be a nice neat function to have to reduce on cable clutter.