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Tell me what you think of my insane cooling idea!

This is an early-stage brainstorm, so it's rough, but here it is:

Use this:

 

https://www.thermofisher.com/order/catalog/product/223432900#/223432900

To cool this:

https://engineeredfluids.store/collections/all/products/ec-140

 

Down to -25c, and recirculate that liquid through something like this:

ErkI2qb4ttfydIL2Shz5XXdvvwNBvUFSG6Q8BGXA

Imagine it! A fully submerged PC, in a non-conductive liquid that's chilled to -25c? 

 

 

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Welcome to the forum!

 

Not sure if below ambient temps will work, but this reminds me of probably one of my favorite LTT builds ever.

 

 

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1 minute ago, TheDailyProcrastinator said:

Welcome to the forum!

 

Not sure if below ambient temps will work, but this reminds me of probably one of my favorite LTT builds ever.

 

 

Below ambient temps *should* work, because the ElectroCool has an operating temp of, I believe -60c at the lower end. It becomes a bit thicker as it cools, according to my few minutes of research, but it will not freeze.

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Dont see how this is your Idea. But ok. Looks cool.

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3 minutes ago, Ultranothing said:

Below ambient temps *should* work, because the ElectroCool has an operating temp of, I believe -60c at the lower end. It becomes a bit thicker as it cools, according to my few minutes of research, but it will not freeze.

I wouldn't be concerned about the ElectroCools operating temps, but the system could run into problems especially if you run the risk of condensation build up that could drip into the mineral oil. It would be a cool experiment, but nothing more than a fun weekend project. I wouldn't expect this to be long term usable at all. I could be wrong of course but the 'idea' is not as simple as putting the two together.

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Yeah, it's been done and isn't all that insane.

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1 hour ago, NZKshatriya said:

Yeah, it's been done and isn't all that insane.

I had the idea. I haven't seen it before. Sounds like you might know something I don't! I'd love to see this actually having been put into practice! Someone has sub-zero chilled a dielectric engineered coolant and submerged a PC in it?

 

 

1 hour ago, TheDailyProcrastinator said:

I wouldn't be concerned about the ElectroCools operating temps, but the system could run into problems especially if you run the risk of condensation build up that could drip into the mineral oil. It would be a cool experiment, but nothing more than a fun weekend project. I wouldn't expect this to be long term usable at all. I could be wrong of course but the 'idea' is not as simple as putting the two together.

My understanding is that ElectroCool isn't a mineral-oil based liquid, but a fully synthetic purpose-engineered fluid. 

Would condensation be a factor in a system that is already fully submerged in liquid? What could condensation form *on* that could be problematic?

 

 

1 hour ago, NZKshatriya said:

Yeah, it's been done and isn't all that insane.

I dunno. It sounds pretty insane to me. Have you seen this before? Someone else suggested rather passive-aggressively that I'm an idiot and it has been done before also. Show me! I don't claim to take the credit for the idea. I just, ya know, think it's neat?

I've obviously seen liquid-submerged PC's. I haven't seen anyone try to pass an engineered single-phase liquid immersion coolant through a laboratory-grade sub-zero chiller and feed a fully-submerged PC before. Hey, believe me, I'd love to!

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5 minutes ago, Ultranothing said:

My understanding is that ElectroCool isn't a mineral-oil based liquid, but a fully synthetic purpose-engineered fluid. 

Would condensation be a factor in a system that is already fully submerged in liquid? What could condensation form *on* that could be problematic?

Regardless if condensation builds up on the inside edge of the case it will start dripping in and when enough water gets into the liquid it will very likely cause issues. 

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7 minutes ago, Ultranothing said:

Would condensation be a factor in a system that is already fully submerged in liquid? What could condensation form *on* that could be problematic?

Anytime something is below dewpoint, condensation will form. If the submerged PC and fluid was sealed, and air was purged with a dry gas, you'd be ok. If it wasn't sealed. A few different things could happen. If the liquid is polar or nonpolar the condensation would either mix or float/sink, depending on density. Either way would be bad imo.

 

Condensation will form on the outside of the case, just like a can of soda. So if it were a long term build, you should seal, purge with dry nitrogen etc, and insulate the outside of the case. That would be most energy efficient for your chiller as well. Considering it will turn the case into a block of ice anyway if left on subzero.

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2 minutes ago, TheDailyProcrastinator said:

Regardless if condensation builds up on the inside edge of the case it will start dripping in and when enough water gets into the liquid it will very likely cause issues. 

From what I understand, the operating temperature range of ElectroCool is -66C to 300C and cannot condense because it isn't made with water.

"
All of our Dielectric Coolants have extremely low vapor pressure, basically unmeasurable below 100C at sea level. You will experience no evaporation of ElectroCool, BitCool or AmpCool in their normal operating temperature ranges."

I don't know what that means exactly? But they're claiming that the liquid does not condensate.

 


 

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2 minutes ago, Demonic Donut said:

Anytime something is below dewpoint, condensation will form. If the submerged PC and fluid was sealed, and air was purged with a dry gas, you'd be ok. If it wasn't sealed. A few different things could happen. If the liquid is polar or nonpolar the condensation would either mix or float/sink, depending on density. Either way would be bad imo.

 

Condensation will form on the outside of the case, just like a can of soda. So if it were a long term build, you should seal, purge with dry nitrogen etc, and insulate the outside of the case. That would be most energy efficient for your chiller as well. Considering it will turn the case into a block of ice anyway if left on subzero.


From the Electrocool FAQ:

"Our Dielectric Coolants have no pH. pH is a measure of the strength and activity of ions (charged particles) in polar solvents.  pH can only be determined for polar solutions (typically water based). Our coolants are completely non-polar (if there were ions in solution, they would conduct electricity).  So, there is no measurable pH of a nonpolar coolant."

That's too science-y for me :D But oh, definitely, this would be a hermetically-sealed, nitrogenny thing like you said :D I would love to see a PC running at sub-zero temps inside a block of ice. I mean, come on!

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3 hours ago, Ultranothing said:

-SNIP-

Cooling or heating using dielectric products isn't new as it's done in industrial applications, however going below ambient is something that is not commonly done or recommended for the reasons above in regards to condensation. While the components in this case are immersed in the dielectric fluid itself which will help protect it from excess condensation the main problem however that can occur is condensation ending up in the fluid itself if it's not completely sealed tight and then there's the matter of the actual loop sweating or in this case actually frosting up if it's far below ambient. 

 

 

 

Please keep discussion related to topic at hand. 

 

-Thread Cleaned- 

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38 minutes ago, W-L said:

Cooling or heating using dielectric products isn't new as it's done in industrial applications, however going below ambient is something that is not commonly done or recommended for the reasons above in regards to condensation. While the components in this case are immersed in the dielectric fluid itself which will help protect it from excess condensation the main problem however that can occur is condensation ending up in the fluid itself if it's not completely sealed tight and then there's the matter of the actual loop sweating or in this case actually frosting up if it's far below ambient. 

 

 

 

Please keep discussion related to topic at hand. 

 

-Thread Cleaned- 

As long as the fluid is denser than water (almost certainly true), condensation of fully submerged parts is 100% not an issue. These fluids shouldn't have any significant miscibility with water, and it isn't phase change either so even hypothetical water collection on the top surface can't get into the main body of fluid (unless you go crazy with agitation)

 

Condensation of the transitional parts could be (and ofc eventually something is leading out of the system...) but realistically cryogenic computing is a real thing that real companies invest in and make work with high reliability, it just isn't something that is actually worthwhile for a hypermajority of users/hardware/workload since max temp limits on conventional computers are so much above ambient.

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2 hours ago, Ultranothing said:

From what I understand, the operating temperature range of ElectroCool is -66C to 300C and cannot condense because it isn't made with water.

"
All of our Dielectric Coolants have extremely low vapor pressure, basically unmeasurable below 100C at sea level. You will experience no evaporation of ElectroCool, BitCool or AmpCool in their normal operating temperature ranges."

I don't know what that means exactly? But they're claiming that the liquid does not condensate.

 


 

Yes but the material it touches will condensate when below ambient. 

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ceiled case to not pollute your cooling liquid with water and it should work.

but i dont know if it could dissolve any part of the system, like cables etc.

but its gonna be expensive and unhandy as hell, but just as cool :)

 

also you have the possibility to have a free chiller attached to run ambient without actibve chilling

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20 hours ago, TheDailyProcrastinator said:

Yes but the material it touches will condensate when below ambient. 

On the outside, if the system is completely sealed. But not inside, where there's no water to turn to vapor.

 

And then I suppose you'd start to get ice forming on the case. Eventually, your sealed system would be flowing and chilling inside of a large block of ice?

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1 hour ago, Ultranothing said:

On the outside, if the system is completely sealed. But not inside, where there's no water to turn to vapor.

 

And then I suppose you'd start to get ice forming on the case. Eventually, your sealed system would be flowing and chilling inside of a large block of ice?

That depends. Obviously freezers do not actually freeze the outside of their own casing, and certainly it is uncommon to have external condensation issues. With sufficient insulation and having the heating element (any sub-ambient system requires a heat pump heating the external environment) providing more than ample counter load, it should be very possible to make a system like this. Again cryogenic computing exists, particularly for quantum/mixed computing exists on industrial scales, so it isn't unfathomable.

 

Impractical (or at least not worthwhile) but definitely doable.

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3 hours ago, Ultranothing said:

On the outside, if the system is completely sealed. But not inside, where there's no water to turn to vapor.

 

And then I suppose you'd start to get ice forming on the case. Eventually, your sealed system would be flowing and chilling inside of a large block of ice?

It's not impossible but it will take work, you would need a perfect vaccum in order to guarantee no condensation on the inside of the case, in theory the outside wouldn't matter but this introduces a lot of other variables. Lots of insulation would be required on the case. So that's why I said earlier that I see this as a weekend project. 

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I buy equipment from Thermo quite frequently and there's frankly nothing particularly special about a lab-grade chiller vs a normal aquarium chiller, so lets just get that out of the way. The reason we buy from companies like Thermo is for the service contract (i.e. maintenance and warranty).

 

Single phase is not really a thing since as a server (or a normal PC, for that matter) it would be self defeating if you have to use a tonne of power to cool the coolant (and then also cool the chiller doing that job) if the same effect of cooling can be achieved by a two-phase system without using a chiller.

 

The reality is that you are mixing two things that are independently really far away from normal practicality (i.e. subambient and immersion). The usual shenangans with "sealing" a system apply here. Can it actually be done? How about I/O and power? what about maintenance? etc etc.

 

With this level of impracticality, you might as well do a liquid nitrogen custom loop + In a sealed vacuum + In space + powered by hamsters on a wheel + fed by a nice vegan diet + with plants grown hydroponically + using unfiltered sun rays

 

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I read up on it.  It seems like it's basically mineral oil and comes with the same material incompatibility problems, capillary action, etc.  

 

Immersion cooling doesn't make sense at home, because you're not space/cost constrained in cooling a single CPU like you are in a miner or a supercomputer.  There's zero purpose basically in doing it vs. just using waterblocks.

 

And going slightly sub-ambient isn't really helpful to overclocking nowadays.  Since Haswell I've found that I hit silicon speed walls much faster than I hit thermal ones.  Simply throwing more voltage doesn't help at a certain point.  Tried 1.7V on a 7700K and couldn't get 5.5Ghz stable even though I was running <100C anyways.

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12 hours ago, AnonymousGuy said:

I read up on it.  It seems like it's basically mineral oil and comes with the same material incompatibility problems, capillary action, etc.  

 

Immersion cooling doesn't make sense at home, because you're not space/cost constrained in cooling a single CPU like you are in a miner or a supercomputer.  There's zero purpose basically in doing it vs. just using waterblocks.

Damn. That means I spent 20hrs of case building for nothing. 

I got a submerged system, and it serves me quite well. With about 40L of Thermal oil in my case. I can game for 4 hours while the oil temperature remains below 35°C. No fans, no pumps.All components stay under 60°C, so stable and durable. 

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  • 4 months later...
On 4/27/2020 at 2:23 AM, Ultranothing said:

This is an early-stage brainstorm, so it's rough, but here it is:

Use this:

 

https://www.thermofisher.com/order/catalog/product/223432900#/223432900

To cool this:

https://engineeredfluids.store/collections/all/products/ec-140

 

Down to -25c, and recirculate that liquid through something like this:

ErkI2qb4ttfydIL2Shz5XXdvvwNBvUFSG6Q8BGXA

Imagine it! A fully submerged PC, in a non-conductive liquid that's chilled to -25c? 

 

 

It can be made. I wanted to make this, but there were problems. 

First is that powersupply chilled and other cables so it cant work. 

Second is motherboard software and hardvare cant work because of chilling(bios and many other physics issues) 

Third not big but complicated, ec 100 isnt recommended to mix with water, you can but its not recommended, so you must 100% fill up liquid and vacum all holes.

Fourth is that cpu will not have any affect of these - 25 unitly it have cpu block, pretty same with gpu. 

 

And solution for all of that is one refrigeration chiller unit which will direct chilling cpu and other will be cpu block with water(ec-100) cooling loop which will freeze ec 100 liquid on some 8 degrees. Next step is preventing motherboard from high temp if overclocking and condesing because cpu chilling. Then must maked smallest as possible box wher you will fit mothermoard with vertical gpu soaked in ec 100 coolant with acrylic which electocool recommending. That box how they've written must have some especially dimensions. First thing is that chiller's cpu block must be soaked in box to earse all of condese. Second is with higly precision engineered flow of liquid for gpu and motherboard. 

 

Results? 

 

Inceredible!, it can be fitted miniature desk for only one monitor. 

 

 

 

But chilling unit must be small and efficient ! ! ! 

 

 

 

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On 4/27/2020 at 2:26 AM, TheDailyProcrastinator said:

Welcome to the forum!

 

Not sure if below ambient temps will work, but this reminds me of probably one of my favorite LTT builds ever.

 

 

https://youtu.be/EuzMIiy3UVE

playing

and how it looks

https://youtu.be/Rh8x4i4ic1o

its better than water or mineral oil soaked in. 

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