Apple launches the iPhone SE "2"

[Curufinwe_wins]

18 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

Apple: How much cpu power do you want in your pocket?

Me: Yes. 
 

Unless you’re playing games or running fancy UI effects (Apple’s screen blur is probably fairly expensive as the resolution goes up), I wouldn’t imagine high resolution displays to be especially demanding on the SoC. 

The SOC doesn't really suffer, higher res screens inherently tend to consume more power though. But even with that said, current displays at high res are ludicrously more efficient than the old ones were, so it isn't a big deal there either.

 

21 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

I have many family members and friends that have been desperately trying to stay with their current iPhone because they hate the new design with notches. I also hate notches as it just looks ugly and is basically the equivalent of watching a Netflix movie with your mouse cursor visible. Maybe I am just a little OCD because I can not handle that as it is irritating to look at. Notches and pin holes are ugly and much worse than bezels to me. 

I hate notches as well. Thus my comment about the S9 series being the pinnacle of design. Pin holes you honestly stop noticing extremely quickly, at least ones like the Note 10+ They actually aren't present while watching almost any content. 16:9 TV shows let the area go black, and most widescreen movie apps (like Plex AND Netflix) are configured to not use that part of the screen. Of course, I think just having a narrow bezel like the S9 is still better than a pinhole, but a symmetric pinhole is definitely a usable option with minor app tweaking. Plus since it is OLED (as is Apple's minus the XR ofc) the blacked out screen area completely disappears and you just never notice it's gone. I can't tell you the last time I watched something on my Note 10+ that showed the hole punch. I honestly don't know. But the space is used for 'normal' things, which I do actually like.

 

 

No notch, almost no camera bump, still 86% screen to body. And in-screen button controls vs swiping with discrete fingerprint reader on back (thumb position is great for out of pocket, but less great for tables).

[Zodiark1593]

1 minute ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

The SOC doesn't really suffer, higher res screens inherently tend to consume more power though. But even with that said, current displays at high res are ludicrously more efficient than the old ones were, so it isn't a big deal there either.

 

I wouldn’t think modern displays would be power hungry at high dpi. OLED will probably have an easier time scaling up though. 
 

The display notch, I’m rather indifferent about. I don’t hate nor love it. It’s just “there”. The only time it sticks out is watching 16:9 video in the dark, though that’s just the inherent disadvantage of LCD. Even without the notch, I’d still see the light from the side bars. In modest lighting though, the contrast of the display is more than sufficient. 

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

For what it is, and particularly the logo on the back hahaha, it isn't bad at all. I have quibbles, and wouldn't recommend it to people who aren't Apple-only (at any price bracket atm), but if you are... cool stuff.

well you do get the fastest mobile CPU and GPU (by a large %) you get a device with many many years more of software support, if you buy a $400 Android phone today it will not even ship with the latest android and will not get any os updates, all the vendors only bother putting in the work for the high margin products. 

[Curufinwe_wins]

7 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

I wouldn’t think modern displays would be power hungry at high dpi. OLED will probably have an easier time scaling up though. 
 

The display notch, I’m rather indifferent about. I don’t hate nor love it. It’s just “there”. The only time it sticks out is watching 16:9 video in the dark, though that’s just the inherent disadvantage of LCD. Even without the notch, I’d still see the light from the side bars. In modest lighting though, the contrast of the display is more than sufficient. 

There are always inefficiencies that come with scaling up. LCD's get double punished because more and more backlight becomes required for the same brightness after the filtering. But these days, changing res isn't a *huge* penalty in light usage (particularly for OLEDs), and increasing frame-rate is more so true. We are talking about say 5-20% reductions these days instead of laptops of years past that would drop by 50-75% if you went from 1080p to 4K.

5 minutes ago, hishnash said:

well you do get the fastest mobile CPU and GPU (by a large %) you get a device with many many years more of software support, if you buy a $400 Android phone today it will not even ship with the latest android and will not get any os updates, all the vendors only bother putting in the work for the high margin products. 

Look, we don't need to open this can of worms here... we all know the standard rebuttals/arguments to these questions... So instead I will simply say that I hope you are not one of the people who used Windows 7 until or after Windows 10 came around.

 

Point being, it's fine. It's faster internals on a device that didn't need faster internals. It is updated camera, which is dope. It is a small screen for the size of phone, and just in general honestly. And if you want a small-ish phone and want Apple products, it will make you happy. If either of those don't matter to you, there are better buys available.

[hishnash]

2 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Point being, it's fine. It's faster internals on a device that didn't need faster internals.

Most apple users (iPhone, iPads and macs) keep their devices for many many years. (maybe longer than other users due to better longterm support).
 

 

6 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

So instead I will simply say that I hope you are not one of the people who used Windows 7 until or after Windows 10 came around.

No i'm using macOS 10.15.4  

people buying this are not getting it for its size they are getting it for the price, compared to the SE and 6S (the phones users will be upgrading from) they have very old CPUs with not that great performance so i would not agree with the idea that `device that didn't need faster internals` for these uses this upgrade of performance is a big deal and moving directly to the latest chip means they will get many more yeas out of it compared to moving to the iPhone 7 or something.

 

In the android space at this price there is nothing the latest hardware.

[Matttis]

Bezels like that in a modern phone are stupid in my opinion.
However, a BIG chunk of our customers at the company I work for still order the iPhone 8 with 64 gigs. If I ask them why they want an iPhone 8 instead of an iPhone 11 they say "because it's a cheap iPhone and 64gb of storage are enough for me".

So I do think that this phone is utterly pointless but it will sell like crazy.

[LAwLz]

That's a fantastic price for that phone. Really impressed.

Apple now possibly has the best mid-budget phone on the market. 

The only thing missing would be one or two mods cameras, but I guess you'll have to go for the more expensive models to get that (understandably). 

[Curufinwe_wins]

14 minutes ago, hishnash said:

snip.

I have a Nook running Kitkat? I don't even know anymore. For it's function it still works exactly as it used to and does what it needs to.

 

Compared to the 6 or SE, sure it is noticeable, I guess (but my sister still uses an SE, and she's had tons of complaints about the phone [battery, speakers, storage size, camera], it not being fast enough is not one of them). Compared to an iPhone 8, which until now was available for 449 direct from Apple? Not going to matter. at all. Compare it against previous availability, and the camera update is nice. The price drop is nice. The processor speed update is honestly irrelevant. It just is. Everything else is going to be out of date before the SOC is. That's true even with Android devices.

 

People don't need the 'latest and greatest hardware'. Like honestly they just don't. Flagships from Apple, Samsung all over are way more phone than almost anyone needs. And the things that people do notice improvements on, other than the camera, this doesn't address. Well the battery life should be quite nice as well, when not gaming (since the gaming load of the A13 can be absolutely insane before it calms the F down), but even while gaming as long as there is a frame limiter in place it won't need to work hard to get the job done, so that should be fine as well.

 

 

EDIT: Nook Tablet: came out in 2011, runs Android 2.3. Apps still work and it still is responsive and functional.

[hishnash]

2 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Everything else is going to be out of date before the SOC is. That's true even with Android devices.

So having the latest SOC today means you will get 4 to 5 years of iOS OS updates and then another 3 to 5 years of security patches after that. So it is relevant. if apple put in a 3 year old chip into this device that would cut 3 years off the safe lifetime of the device (you should not continue to use a smartphone if the provider is not longer shipping security updates).

 

[Godlygamer23]

3 hours ago, FloRolf said:

I don't have a notch on my OP7P but i'd still take one over bezels like THIS

I don't personally care about bezels on a smartphone. Having a seamless multi-monitor configuration is one thing, but on a smartphone...Meh. 

[Curufinwe_wins]

16 minutes ago, Kaloob said:

Even though I can't stand iOS, this is a much more exciting launch than the s20 and OnePlus 8 series. It's great that they put their A13 chip in there, beating the $1400 s20 Ultra and blowing mid-rangers out of the water. Kinda weird that Apple is making the US flagship killer. 

Would I get one personally? Nah. But would I point someone to it? Hell yes. 

 

20 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

That's a fantastic price for that phone. Really impressed.

Apple now possibly has the best mid-budget phone on the market. 

The only thing missing would be one or two mods cameras, but I guess you'll have to go for the more expensive models to get that (understandably). 

 

I don't get this. I really don't. Take 50 dollars (10%) off the price of an iPhone 8, give it more SOC power than it could use before or in the future, leave all of the other issues with the device/design and it's suddenly this great amazing thing? That's just stupid. It's an incremental improvement and certainly better than doing nothing, but it isn't a 'flagship killer' nor even a good mid-budget phone unless you are totally fine with the aforementioned limitations.

 

Which in fairness, is totally in-spirit for the SE brand. But I know exactly one person I can recommend this to (NOTE: I did make that recommendation), and that person I'm trying to get to come to the darkside anyways (it will be the backup if they stay Apple).

[Curufinwe_wins]

17 minutes ago, hishnash said:

So having the latest SOC today means you will get 4 to 5 years of iOS OS updates and then another 3 to 5 years of security patches after that. So it is relevant. if apple put in a 3 year old chip into this device that would cut 3 years off the safe lifetime of the device (you should not continue to use a smartphone if the provider is not longer shipping security updates).

That isn't true. The SOC doesn't need to dictate the iOS updates. The only time in the past that was true was because there was a 32-64 bit transition. There is no inherent reason whatsoever that Apple would need to drop support for the 8 before this or vise-versa. Again, Windows 10 has shipping support for CPUs that are 15 years old (official support includes Prescott P4s from 2004). 10 year old hardware (like the Q6600) can be a legitimately good experience still with 8GB of ram and an SSD.

 

Just because Android OEMs don't keep their shit up to date (although they often send security updates far longer than they do OS ones as recently pointed out), doesn't mean it has to be that way at all. And them not staying up to date has nothing to do with the SOC, it has to do with device level support.

 

[hishnash]

11 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

That isn't true. The SOC doesn't dictate the iOS updates. The only time in the past that was true was because there was a 32-64 bit transition. There is no inherent reason whatsoever that Apple would need to drop support for the 8 before this or vise-versa.
 

 

For security i agree but for new features the raw power difference between the iphone 7 or 8 and this new phone are so large that when it comes to new operating system features that there will be a time when they cant do something they want to do on the older chips. And yes when they drop iOS support for devices its based on the chipset and nothing else. (you can see this by observing what iPads drop support).

[SenKa]

1 hour ago, suicidalfranco said:

given that the expectation for the SE2 was a device the same size as the SE, i can see the hate. 

 

That expectation was totally unfounded, and was a hope more than anything

 

The iPhone 8 is already a quite small phone, but I will admit its substantially larger than the 5s and SE. I was in the camp who was hoping for the iPhone 5  formfactor new SE, but i was also very aware that the chances of that happening were incredibly slim. I currently use a 5s as my work phone and its a bit of a chore to text on should i need to. With that being said, my hands are large.

[SenKa]

8 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

That isn't true. The SOC doesn't dictate the iOS updates. The only time in the past that was true was because there was a 32-64 bit transition. There is no inherent reason whatsoever that Apple would need to drop support for the 8 before this or vise-versa. Again, Windows 10 has shipping support for CPUs that are 15 years old (official support includes Prescott P4s from 2004). 10 year old hardware (like the Q6600) can be a legitimately good experience still with 8GB of ram and an SSD.

 

Just because Android OEMs don't keep their shit up to date (although they often send security updates far longer than they do OS ones as recently pointed out), doesn't mean it has to be that way at all. And them not staying up to date has nothing to do with the SOC, it has to do with device level support.

 

The limitation with Apple is largely RAM on older phones. This is moreso an issue with iPadOS where the 1GB of RAM the early 64 bit iPads shipped with simply wouldnt have been enough. Though, the 3GB on the 6s still more than suffices on normal iOS and I agree that cutting support is 100% artificial. Same goes for cutting support for the 2014 Macbook Air after catalina, when the 2015-2017 model is THE SAME LAPTOP.

 

Still salty about it, as I own a 2014 air myself.

[Curufinwe_wins]

6 minutes ago, hishnash said:

 

Sorry let me rephrase. There is no reason that the SOC has to dictate iOS support. I understand and agree that is how Apple does it right now, but do you honestly believe that if they were still selling 500k iPhone 8s 3 years from now because they kept moving them downmarket like they did these last few years they would abandon support for them anyways? Apple isn't doing magic voodoo stuff where they need more power in the background all of a sudden. That is anathema to the entire design goal of iOS which is this light hyper-streamlined hyper-optimized OS.

 

All that happens is Apple gets to a point and says 'yeah, we sold like X of these this year, below our revenue threshold so you guys are clear to cut it off in two more years'.

 

Which for the record, is fine. It isn't like that is unfair business practices. But it has nothing to do with 'insufficient power'. That is BS.

 

Hell, Apple could keep the same motherboard/SOC for the 8 and just increased the ram packaged ontop if that was really what was needed. 

[hishnash]

3 minutes ago, SenKa said:

That expectation was totally unfounded, and was a hope more than anything

Personally if apple did release a device that was physically the same size as the SE but with a bezel less screen i would buy it right away (even if it was the full flagship price). but that is not what the SE was about it.

The SE was about using the already paid for Tooling (the majority of the cost of making a phone is in this) so as to release a phone at a lower price.

 

If apple make an SE sized phone with a modern look then that is new tooling so will need to cost what a flagship costs.

[Curufinwe_wins]

11 minutes ago, hishnash said:

Personally if apple did release a device that was physically the same size as the SE but with a bezel less screen i would buy it right away (even if it was the full flagship price). but that is not what the SE was about it.

The SE was about using the already paid for Tooling (the majority of the cost of making a phone is in this) so as to release a phone at a lower price.

 

If apple make an SE sized phone with a modern look then that is new tooling so will need to cost what a flagship costs.

This is also BS. They would have exactly one assembly to change (not the frame or substructure); the top LCD+digitizer assembly. It's even one cohesive unit from the factory. It isn't like the exact same motherboard and all that can be put into this tiny device regardless. They already had to rework some things. The over glass covering wouldn't need dramatically different tooling (because it still covers everything flush), the colored stencil layer changes and that's about it, along with a bigger LCD, and small rearrangement of some other parts.

 

9 minutes ago, Kaloob said:

Most people are fine with iOS and it's limitation. It's as much of a flagship killer as the OnePlus 1-3T were. Flagship performance with some limitations and a midrange price. It's a pretty competitive offering and so was the iPhone 8 at it's reduced price. For the average user who wants a phone that will run well for a long time, this is the way to go. And it's not like this years Android flagships don't have flaws of their own. 

OnePlus 1-3T were not 4.7' phones in a 6-7' flagship phone world. I can see the XR as being marketed as a flagship killer, but a device in a completely different form-factor cannot be considered flagship killer by default because anyone who actually wants the things that makes a flagship a flagship this doesn't have.

[suicidalfranco]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

Yeah. I don’t think anyone who is going to buy this is going to care about that difference. 
 

Aside from that, having thin or no bezels has its own downsides in terms of handling the phone. 
 

A lot of people love the 6/7/8 body design. 
 

This product is a major win. 

 

11 minutes ago, SenKa said:

That expectation was totally unfounded, and was a hope more than anything

 

The iPhone 8 is already a quite small phone, but I will admit its substantially larger than the 5s and SE. I was in the camp who was hoping for the iPhone 5  formfactor new SE, but i was also very aware that the chances of that happening were incredibly slim. I currently use a 5s as my work phone and its a bit of a chore to text on should i need to. With that being said, my hands are large.

not saying that it won't sell, just that the hate i see here is somewhat understandable, that for the device they've released it should have been simply named iphone 9 instead of SE2, and that many were hoping for an iPhoneX style of device, in the somewhat squarish, small frame of the SE

[BuckGup]

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

I have many family members and friends that have been desperately trying to stay with their current iPhone because they hate the new design with notches. I also hate notches as it just looks ugly and is basically the equivalent of watching a Netflix movie with your mouse cursor visible. Maybe I am just a little OCD because I can not handle that as it is irritating to look at. Notches and pin holes are ugly and much worse than bezels to me. 

You notice it for the first hour of use then it's not an issue at all. Remember the days were all TV shows and movies either had black bars on the side or you watched in stretch. That was annoying

[Curufinwe_wins]

14 minutes ago, Kaloob said:

Plenty of people want a compact flagship. Also, the processor is part of what makes a flagship and this has the best smartphone CPU out.

How to give this an corollary. Suppose you take an compact car and give it a really nice 300 HP engine. It's a great fun experience, more than the thing needs, but often usable power. That's our iPhone 8. Now pull out that 300 HP engine, and put in a 800 HP engine. The car can't ever put the power down, and even if it could, there is no way the cooling can support the full power of the engine. That is this device.

 

It doesn't have a higher refresh rate panel, it doesn't have higher resolution, it doesn't have anything that can use the excess power it already had and just makes even more extreme. Under real full load, the iPhone 11 Pro Max cannot cool its SOC. How the flip at actual load is this device supposed to? And if you are using it only at low power anyways, then there isn't nearly as much of a gain to be had.

 

The iPhone X is 143.6x70.9x7.7 mm

This device is 138.4x67.3x7.3 mm. 

 

Are you honestly trying to tell me that people care THAT much about those 3mm top and bottom to make a difference between what is considered compact flagship and what isn't?

Reminder that in a body with 1/10th of an inch wider and smaller, the iPhone X houses a 5.8" screen. Even if you completely made the notch solid, there is no excuse for an anemic 4.7" display in this form factor. Again physical buttons, even more sensors up top, the S7 had a 5.1" screen.

[Curufinwe_wins]

1 minute ago, Kaloob said:

I'd be all over a compact car with 800 HP. It may not be able to get all the power down (you could give it AWD, see Mazda 3 and Impreza), but it would be some great fun.

And there is a scenario that the full power can be used: the future. For people that want to keep it a long time, this is a great move. 

And while it's not that compact, you can still easily reach across the screen with one hand, huge bezels or not. 

Yes, if all you want is a good display and dislike iOS, you should get an old Android flagship (which is what I'd do). But for the majority of people, this is an amazing bargain.

The future can't use the power if the frame (which doesn't change) can't dissipate the power. There is a noticeable performance delta in between a Pro 11 and Pro 11 Max an S20 vs an S20+ because the frame size differential, take an even older/smaller/less optimized frame and it won't be able to handle it.

 

Like what happens with cars that are too much power for their cooling, the diffs overheat or blow up. 

 

Even if you like iOS... XR (currently $499) is a better buy for 99% of people unless you hate notches so insanely much you want to throw away over 40% of your screen (14.16 vs 9.63 sq in). Or a lightly used (mint condition) iPhone X which sells right now in the 400-450 dollar range if you absolutely need that bit smaller size.

 

You have to want iOS, not care about small screens, care about notches, and hate even lightly used devices for this to make sense.

 

If all of those things are true, yeah, this is a 'bargain'. But definitely not 'for majority of people' or 'flagship killer'.

[Curufinwe_wins]

8 minutes ago, Kaloob said:

I hated the notch on the s10+ and it's smaller than the iPhone notch. A notch is fine for most people, but some people can't stand cutouts in their display.

I think the biggest problem with the s10+ cutout is the non-symmetry of it. Personally. It draws attention.

[Curufinwe_wins]

6 minutes ago, Kaloob said:

This is going to be updated longer. Also, carriers are not going to have used iPhone Xs out for display, but this will be. Also, a lot of people still like the old iPhone design, and this is newer than the XR, which will also lure customers to it. 

I mean... yes. But for a random person who hasn't told you they hate notches etc etc. Knowing that battery is 99.99% to be the limiting issue devices (since iOS support is practically forever in phone terms. The 6S and SE are still supported for crying out loud), would you honestly tell that person to buy this device for 449 over an XR for 499 just because the A13 exists? 

 

Dropping 40% screen area and generally a far higher quality display? Like that's insane.

 

If they tell you they hate face ID and want a fingerprint scanner, that is another reason I suppose, but I would first cough *Android* at them...

[Curufinwe_wins]

4 minutes ago, Kaloob said:

Personally, I know people who like the "classic" iPhone design, and the battery life is still going to be fine with that small, low res screen plus the A13. Also, most people I know are stubborn and won't switch to Android. 

Even if I didn't know they liked the classic device, I'd probably reccomend this (along with the XR) since those wanting to keep their phones a long time will be able to get more updates. 

Well, I guess that's your perspective... And you are certainly welcome to it. Different priorities and all.

 

Obviously I dramatically view it differently. To me (and to normal people I've helped) nothing is as important as the screen (given a body size allowance), once you hit an acceptable power (and storage) to not suck during normal usage. 

 

I also don't like old/retro stuff if that old is actually just worse lol, so I guess I shouldn't discount fanboy/girl-ism in any community (Apple or otherwise).