Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Always on Anti-Cheat, worst than always on DRM?

We didn't learn anything from StarForce, huh?

PC Setup:

 

Desktop setup:

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3800XT | GPU: MSI Radeon RX 580 V1 8GB | Motherboard: ASRock B550 Phantom Gaming 4 | RAM: 2x8GB Patriot DDR4 at 2400MHz | Storage: 256GB Inland Professional NVMe SSD, 120GB Inland Professional SATA SSD and 2TB WD Blue 2.5" 5400rpm HDD | Case: Cooler Master N400 | Cooler: Cryorig H7 | PSU: EVGA G3 550 | Headphones: Sony MDR-7506 | Keyboard: Corsair Vengeance K65 | Mouse: Logitech G502 Hero | Capture cards: StarTech PEXHDCAP2 (for HDMI and 480p analog captures) and AVerMedia C027 (for interlaced captures) | Monitor: Dell 3008WFP

Local dickhead, PlayStation 2 enthusiast and VHS collector.

Volume / Normalized 100% / 98% (content loudness 0.1dB)

 

 

@handymanshandle x @pinksnowbirdie | Jake x Brendan :^

Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't noticed performance issues, but yeah rather iffy how they made it work. They did mention it will use least elevated privileged mode needed, but yeah... who knows. Even with this way, to make it harder to cheat, still there cheaters can show up. So, I guess try to develop it without such access since it's also not 100% protected against cheats. 

Ryzen 7 3800X | X570 Aorus Elite | G.Skill 16GB 3200MHz C16 | Radeon RX 5700 XT | Samsung 850 PRO 256GB | Mouse: Zowie S1 | OS: Windows 10

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Sauron said:

What's hard to understand about "poison"? It's definitely easier to understand for most than "it runs in the background in Windows' ring 0". The point here is that just because they don't have a monopoly doesn't mean we should just tolerate all kinds of anti-consumer practices.

They're not telling us exactly what this does. It just runs in the background at elevated privileges and you have no way of knowing what it's doing because it's a black box. It could be logging your passwords or mining monero for all you know.

So now regulation is fine for health but not other things. You're already raising the bar here and basing it on a completely arbitrary distinction. As I said, we can argue over what is worth regulating - but it's absurd to say that regulation is inherently wrong so long as there isn't a monopoly.

I consider "you buy our game and in exchange we take full control of your computer" to qualify as "taking advantage of consumers". A lot of people won't read the fine print (it's not like the store page has a big red warning saying they'll take over your computer) or won't understand what this implies.

 

Gambling is a "non essential and completely optional" service too and yet it's regulated. So are cigarettes, alcohol and all sorts of other things that you could easily live without. You could do without the vast majority of food products for that matter but they're still heavily regulated to prevent health issues to an extent. There's no shortage of examples I can make here, many of which - I think you'd agree - are important.

I don't think it's ethical to sneak what is essentially malware onto your costumer's computers. Since the game can just as well be distributed and monetized without it, I don't see how this even hurts Riot beyond preventing the company from acting unethically - not that I would have a problem cutting into their profits if it served to protect their customers.

 

If you think it is ethical then we can argue on that but that's beside the point - regulating companies to prevent highly unethical behavior is at times both ethical and necessary.

 

Also 1) this has nothing to do with liking the product, it's about malware that is bundled with the product and 2) don't conflate regulation with a ban. I never said the game should be banned, I'm saying there should be regulation to prevent Riot from adding malware to it.

 

And mind you, regulation doesn't necessarily mean "they can't do it"; it could just mean imposing that they make it really clear on the store page that they're installing malware, which wouldn't change the product and would just let costumers make a more informed decision. Are you saying that it's unethical to demand transparency in the transaction?

So simple and so easy that it has pretty much never worked. I can't think of a single high profile case where a boycott of a large company for unethical behavior has succeeded. Even just the threat of regulation has very often caused companies to backtrack immediately - while malding on social media never has. That's because they know the latter won't actually end up undercutting their bottom line while the former very well might.

Not all products are the same, you simply cannot compare medicines or human consumable products of that nature to this software. I can't believe you are even trying to.   You may as well try to argue the automotive safety standards should be applied to toy cars.

 

 

Now you are talking about malware,  what malware? it isn't malware and doesn't come with malware,  using malware as an argument for regulating a product is so loose a reason it will be abused to prevent any software the regulator decides they don't want in the market.  how do you even decide what software is susceptible to malware sufficiently to be regulated?  Linux has malware occasionally, maybe we should regulate that.  Sounds bloody stupid to me.

 

There is a reason I specifically mentioned monopolies.  Because a transparent product like this cannot be anti consumer in any way if it does not leverage a monopoly of some sort that a consumer cannot avoid.  This can be avoided, there is literally no reason someone would have to buy or install this product.

 

This product is not anti consumer, it is not a pre-requisite for essential services or software, you don't lose anything by not using it.  It is transparent in what it does and how it does it,  what right do you have to demand it be regulated?

 

 

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

Link to post
Share on other sites

See, shit like this is why i primarily play single player games, i just like to buy a game, do the day one patch download and then disconnect from the internet for months at a time. 

 

Just for clarity, i live off grid most of the time so if gaming ever heads in the direction of requiring always online or regular sign ins i'm fucked.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, mr moose said:

Was highlighting the gravity of the claim for regulation.

 

That's not even comparable, you are trying to compare a medical product people not only consume but have no way to understand to a piece of optional software that we already know what it does.   If someone wants to write  a piece of software that randomly deletes files from your hard drive and tells you exactly what it does what right do you have to demand they can't?  they aren't tying it to an essential service and they aren't playing with the health of people for profit.  

 

Why should anything stop them. regulation is to prevent companies taking advantage of consumers, not to dictate what non essential and completely optional products they can sell.

 

 

Because it's not ethical, you can't just decide a product should be regulated because you don't like it.  If you don't like it  don't buy it. 

I highly doubt most people who install valorant know that they are installing an always running anti heat that runs at a super full level like that. It would be more akin to a pharmaceutical company putting in the fine print that they dilute their drugs with harmful chemicals.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

I highly doubt most people who install valorant know that they are installing an always running anti heat that runs at a super full level like that.

The problem is not the level it runs at but what it does,  unless it actually does something they say it doesn't,  then the level it runs at is irrelevant.

Quote

 

It would be more akin to a pharmaceutical company putting in the fine print that they dilute their drugs with harmful chemicals.

Not by any stretch of the imagination.  This is a product that does what they say it does, We have no evidence does anything nefarious and neither is their any fine print to that effect.   So no, it's not like that at all. 

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Not by any stretch of the imagination.  This is a product that does what they say it does, We have no evidence does anything nefarious and neither is their any fine print to that effect.   So no, it's not like that at all. 

And consuming a root level privileged software won't potentially harm your health either so....

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, leadeater said:

And consuming a root level privileged software won't potentially harm your health either so....

It might raise your blood pressure if it annoys you or something like that,  In that case just don't buy the thing.  It's not like they are forcing people to install a program that uses malware to harvest data.   I believe there are already consumer protection laws that hold companies accountable for faulty products and fraud and privacy abuse (at least in most of the world).

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

Link to post
Share on other sites

people always bring up the COD boycott players playing the game, i've sworn not to participate anything Epic, i've held true to it since 2 years, this isn't any different, there's sea of things i could be rather doing than playing this game, so should you. if you want to show them this ain't right, vote with your wallet. 

 

Spoiler
Spoiler

Intel i7 4790K (4.0 GHz) | MSI Z97-GAMING 5 | Corsair Vengeance 8GB DDR3-1866 2x8GB | Asus GeForce GTX 1070 OC Strix | Samsung 840 Pro Series 256GB | Corsair RM 850W | Corsair H90 94.0 CFM | Logitech® Wireless Combo MK330 | Cooler Master HAF XM | Dell S2240L 60Hz 21.5 IPS | 

PCPartPicker 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Rohith_Kumar_Sp said:

people always bring up the COD boycott players playing the game, i've sworn not to participate anything Epic, i've held true to it since 2 years, this isn't any different, there's sea of things i could be rather doing than playing this game, so should you. if you want to show them this ain't right, vote with your wallet. 

I did the same with ubisoft, a good 4 years now that I refused to play any of their games.  If they bring out one that looks like it's worth the price I will give them another chance, however if they screw me over like they did with HOMM (not being able to save or even play online games and refuse to fix the issue), it will be along time before I go back there.

 

 

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If anti cheat devs are going so far as to put their program on the same level as the kernel (I don’t consider this acceptable in any way), would it be that much more trouble to just build an OS (probably a custom lightweight linux distro so as to use proprietary GPU drivers) that the game can run in, and have the PC boot into that whenever you want the game launched? One could achieve a lot more control over what can run without fudging around with the Windows install. 

The pursuit of knowledge for the sake of knowledge.

Forever in search of my reason to exist.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Zodiark1593 said:

If anti cheat devs are going so far as to put their program on the same level as the kernel (I don’t consider this acceptable in any way), would it be that much more trouble to just build an OS (probably a custom lightweight linux distro so as to use proprietary GPU drivers) that the game can run in, and have the PC boot into that whenever you want the game launched? One could achieve a lot more control over what can run without fudging around with the Windows install. 

That's  pretty awesome Idea,  They can have all the control over the game that they want without going anywhere near the rest of the OS.  Then people who only want one system for work and games can have that and have a hardware disconnect for the boot drive.   It would also make writing cheats harder again.

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Riot Games goes Steamworks bye bye, always on anti-cheat. 

 

 

 

 

Sorry 

 

I7 7700k @ 4.8GHz// Asus GTX 1080 Ti Strix OC @ 2Ghz/ 5900MHz // Corsair Vengeance LED 16GB 3333Mhz // Corsair RM750X PSU // Corsair 350D // Asus Strix Z270G // Noctua NH-D15S // SanDisk 480GB SSD // Corsair Virtuoso // Logitech G305 // Corsair K65 // Acer Predator XB241YU //

Link to post
Share on other sites

wow lol. What have we come to?

 

Can we just appreciate the fact that hackers will go so far for something stupid like video game cheating that this is even a concept?

"There is nothing more difficult than fixing something that isn't all the way broken yet." - Author Unknown

"A redline a day keeps depression at bay" - Author Unknown

Spoiler

Intel Core i7-3960X @ 4.6 GHz - Asus P9X79WS/IPMI - 12GB DDR3-1600 quad-channel - EVGA GTX 1080ti SC - Fractal Design Define R5 - 500GB Crucial MX200 and 2 x Seagate ST2000DM006 (in RAID 0 for games!) - The good old Corsair GS700 - Yamakasi Catleap 2703 27" 1440p and ASUS VS239H-P 1080p 23" - NH-D15 - Logitech G710+ - Mionix Naos 7000 - Sennheiser PC350 w/Topping VX-1

 

Avid Miata autocrosser :D

Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone remember starforce? This has been done before:
 

 

Be sure to @Pickles - Lord of the Jar if you want me to see your reply!

Stopping by to praise the all mighty jar Lord pickles... * drinks from a chalice of holy pickle juice and tossed dill over shoulder* ~ @WarDance
3600x | NH-D15 Chromax Black | 32GB 3200MHz | GTX 1070 Hybrid (2100c/2241m) | Gigabyte X570 Aorus Elite | Seasonic X760w | Phanteks Evolv X | 500GB WD_Black SN750 | Sandisk Skyhawk 3.84TB SSD | 4TB HDD 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Man this just seems like a shitshow of an idea...
If Microsoft doesn't block this right away, just wait until someone kinds out how to hack the driver. - Which will inevitably will happen just like how DRM gets squashed.
Once that driver gets hacked.. Congrats that is one glaring security hole asking for somebody to write malware for.

~~~~~~~ ULT1MAT3 CH3AT$ 4 VOLARANT FR33!!!!!~~~~~~~~
VvVvV ~&&&###-D0\/\/NL0D H3R3-###&&&~ VvVvV

Spoiler

hqdefault.jpg


 

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

source: 

Riot's upcomming team based shooter with hero elements has been found, discovered and confirmed to implement an always on anti-cheat system.

the anticheat system starts when the machine boots-up, and has the same rights as an administrator

 

Since this is running at with high privileges and cannot be directly turned off. It can always monitor and really do whatever it wants on your system.

Someone could find a security vulnerability and turn this into a rootkit.

It's already reported to have bugs that negatively impact to other games.

 

so yeah, good things coming ahead of us. Of course the only way to stop this is to not install the game, but given the gamer mentality and ability to use an ounce of their grey matter to take a stand against such obviously negative practices. RIP everyone, expect this to come to LoL soon TM

 
 
 

Thanks for this information, as I hadn't yet heard of it. RiotGames networks are now permanently blocked at the firewall level across all my devices until they decide to smarten up. Additionally, I won't be supporting IT clients whose computers have Vanguard installed, and instead will be educating them on the perils of allowing closed-source drivers to operate at the root level on their systems.

 

14 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

im going to go on past experiences and say that this

--SNIPPED THE BOYCOTT MW2 SCREENSHOT--

still holds true to this day when talking about the general gamer

 
 
 
 

I miss the days when NT_Authority and team managed to reverse engineer IW's netcode, creating their own private servers, lobbies, and even a better anti-cheat engine than was initially included with the game. At least their legacy lives on by way of FiveM... Shame Activision had to file a cease and desist instead of working with them to improve their future games. (Then again, we're talking about the publisher & heads of a game series who didn't exactly see eye to eye on a few things, leading to a wee little lawsuit over corporate greed.)

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-05-23-activision-vs-vince-zampella-and-jason-west-inside-the-game-industry-trial-of-the-decade

 

1 hour ago, Pickles - Lord of the Jar said:

Anyone remember starforce? This has been done before:

 

 
 
 
 

MVG's content is spot on when it comes to providing a high-level overview of anti-cheat, copy-protection, and other such DRM software. He does a great job calling out the positive benefits that DRM software is supposed to provide game studios, without leaving out any of the negative side-effects that impact the paying consumer. If only the rest of the world cared to understand the basics of software running on their computers every day.

Desktop: KRySTaLoGi-PC Build Log (i7-4790K, RTX2060) Mobile: OnePlus 5T | Bell - Unlimited Calling & Texting + 10GB Data
Laptop: Dell XPS 15 9560 (the real 15" MacBook Pro that Apple didn't make) Tablet: iPad Mini 5 | HP Touchpad | ASUS ME302C
Camera: Canon SX280 + Rebel T1i (500D) | Sony HDR-AS50R | Panasonic DMC-TS20D Music: Spotify Premium (CIRCA '08)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was honestly exited for Valorant, now not so much. Because of this it probably won't be runnable in Linux ever either, not that I'd want this on my computer in any OS

I spent $2500 on building my PC and all i do with it is play no games atm & watch anime at 1080p(finally)...

Builds:

The Toaster Project! Northern Bee!

 

The original LAN PC build log! (Old, dead and replaced by The Toaster Project & 5.0)

Spoiler

"Here is some advice that might have gotten lost somewhere along the way in your life. 

 

#1. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

#2. It's best to keep your mouth shut; and appear to be stupid, rather than open it and remove all doubt.

#3. There is nothing "wrong" with being wrong. Learning from a mistake can be more valuable than not making one in the first place.

 

Follow these simple rules in life, and I promise you, things magically get easier. " - MageTank 31-10-2016

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Haven't heard about that game before now, definitely won't play it now

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Try to make sense of what you see and wonder about what makes the universe exist. Be curious. And however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at. 
It matters that you don't just give up.”

-Stephen Hawking

Link to post
Share on other sites

I always thought that the way the game was giving out Beta keys was pretty shady; it screams stat-padding. It is any wonder how Amazon feels about it now.

Read the community standards; it's like a guide on how to not be a moron.

 

Gerdauf's Law: Each and every human being, without exception, is the direct carbon copy of the types of people that he/she bitterly opposes.

Remember, calling facts opinions does not ever make the facts opinions, no matter what nonsense you pull.

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, mr moose said:

The problem is not the level it runs at but what it does,  unless it actually does something they say it doesn't,  then the level it runs at is irrelevant.

Not by any stretch of the imagination.  This is a product that does what they say it does, We have no evidence does anything nefarious and neither is their any fine print to that effect.   So no, it's not like that at all. 

People are reporting it negatively affecting the performance of other games so yes it does have unintended side effects that are not apart of the "it does what it says it does". Also yes it does matter what level it runs at because most wouldn't care if it simply ran at a higher level and therefore could be easily turned off when not playing valorant and also less likely to be exploitable. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/14/2020 at 6:51 AM, jasonvp said:

The cheating epidemic is out of hand, across the board. 

You know what would REALLY help with that? Free dedicated servers with mods that have full access and can ban the obvious cheaters instantly.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

You know what would REALLY help with that? Free dedicated servers with mods that have full access and can ban the obvious cheaters instantly.

I don't think "free" is required; rentals certainly are.  But it's not something game makers want to give us any longer.  They want full control over the server infrastructure, soup to nuts.  And that's an unfortunate reality of the gaming world we live in.  Gone are the days of, for instance, Dice handing the Battlefield server binary out to server rental agencies, who would then spin up servers based on folks actually paying money to rent them.  We're past that.  And I don't see it coming back, either.

 

The only realistic solution we're left with is good client AND server-side anti-cheat.  It has to be a 2-part thing, not an either/or.  And both of those solutions need constant updating, care, and feeding.  The cheat writers are very good at figuring out new and sleazy ways to work around the software mechanics put in place, so the game makers are then on the hook to keep a close eye on all of that.

Editing Rig: Mac Pro 7,1

System Specs: 3.2GHz 16-core Xeon | 96GB ECC DDR4 | AMD Radeon Pro Vega II (32GB HBM2) | Lots of SSD and NVMe storage |

Audio: Sound Blaster X7 external DAC/ADC |

 

Gaming Rig: PC

System Specs:  Asus Rampage VI Extreme board | Intel Core i9 7900X | 64GB Corsair Vengeance LPX (OC'd to 4GHz) | 2 x NVidia 2080Ti FE cards (OC'd) | Corsair AX1500i power supply | CaseLabs Magnum THW10 case (RIP CaseLabs ) |

Audio:  Sound Blaster AE-9 card | Mackie DL32R Mixer | Sennheiser HDV820 amp | Sennheiser HD820 phones | Rode Broadcaster mic |

Displays: Asus PG27UQ 4K/144Hz display | 2 x BenQ EW3280U displays |

Cooling:  2 x EK 140 Revo D5 Pump/Res | EK Asus R6E monoblock | 2 x EK 2080Ti waterblocks | 2 x AlphaCool 480mm x 60mm rads | AlphaCool 560mm x 60mm rad | 21 x Noctua 120mm fans | 8 x Noctua 140mm fans | 2 x Aquaero 6XT fan controllers |

Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

People are reporting it negatively affecting the performance of other games so yes it does have unintended side effects that are not apart of the "it does what it says it does". Also yes it does matter what level it runs at because most wouldn't care if it simply ran at a higher level and therefore could be easily turned off when not playing valorant and also less likely to be exploitable. 

Hopefully unlike Starforce it uninstalls when you uninstall the game. Back when X3:Reunion came out I bought it and my fps in WoW went from mid 80s to between 25-45. Once I narrowed down the problem I uninstalled the game thinking that would solve the issue. It didn't. Digging that shit out of my system was a bitch and a half. Getting my money back from Best Buy was also a fun time.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Newenthusiast said:

See, shit like this is why i primarily play single player games, i just like to buy a game, do the day one patch download and then disconnect from the internet for months at a time. 

 

Just for clarity, i live off grid most of the time so if gaming ever heads in the direction of requiring always online or regular sign ins i'm fucked.  

Well, you have every game at GOG to play, forever (provided you buy and download today). 

And there is of course always one other alternative that comes with its own issues. 

 

At some point we need to treat games that don't comply with what we consider best practices the same way we would treat games that are incompatible with our systems (console peasants surely have been there :P oh, wait, PC users as well worth console exclusives). 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×