SSD upgrade questions

[Legodude50]

3 minutes ago, LIGISTX said:

It is just the connector type. I still am not sure what your mobo supports, but if its not NVMe, a SATA SSD and a M.2 would be effectively the same, just the SATA would obviously require SATA cable and SATA power wires.

I’ll read the manual and see what it says. I’m still leaning towards the WD blue m.2. The lack of wires needed is nice. I just need to find a m.2 screw. My motherboard doesn’t have one 

[OmniDyne]

1 hour ago, LIGISTX said:

This is why I said "a consumer NVMe drive will use M.2", it is an interface, and consumer drives will use that interface.

 

M.2 is the form factor. PCIe is the interface. NVMe is the protocol.

 

1 hour ago, LIGISTX said:

but an in depth explanation wasn't really needed for this

 

My explanation was not "in depth". 

 

1 hour ago, LIGISTX said:

That said, I did not see where it said it supports NVMe, if you found data otherwise, sharing it would be great!

 

It's labeled very clearly in the manual multiple times that it supports M.2 PCIe. It's not going to say NVMe because NVMe is the protocol PCIe uses. It can't support M.2 PCIe without NVMe.

 

1 hour ago, LIGISTX said:

That said, no, there is no real performance difference.

 

There's a massive performance difference. PCIe NVMe SSDs can hit well above 4000 MB/s. SATA is limited to ~500 MB/s. That being said, for OS or gaming applications you will not notice a difference unless transferring massive files from drive to drive.

 

2.5" SATA SSDs are the same as M.2 SATA SSDs. Same interface, same protocol.

[LIGISTX]

2 hours ago, OmniDyne said:

 

M.2 is the form factor. PCIe is the interface. NVMe is the protocol.

 

 

My explanation was not "in depth". 

 

 

It's labeled very clearly in the manual multiple times that it supports M.2 PCIe. It's not going to say NVMe because NVMe is the protocol PCIe uses. It can't support M.2 PCIe without NVMe.

 

 

There's a massive performance difference. PCIe NVMe SSDs can hit well above 4000 MB/s. SATA is limited to ~500 MB/s. That being said, for OS or gaming applications you will not notice a difference unless transferring massive files from drive to drive.

 

2.5" SATA SSDs are the same as M.2 SATA SSDs. Same interface, same protocol.

I think your missing the point here with some of this.

 

But, if that is true, as far as supporting PCIe M.2 meaning it is in fact NVMe, then yes, it will work. That is not how I understood it, but that is likely due to bad product marketing since mobo's usually say "NVMe support" somewhere, not just M.2. But that could be a newer thing to "reduce the confusion" that even I must have. I thought the M.2 interface could be wired to either a SATA controller or PCIe, and depending if your BIOS/OS supported NVMe, it would either use that, or fall back to SATA. I must not fully understand the electrical design of this.

 

All of the mobo's I have worked with that do support NVMe clearly state "NVMe in their literature", so this must be where that confusion comes from. And as far as performance goes, yes, obviously there is a performance difference, as I stated, for file transfers from one NVMe drive to another (or any drive that can also read/write at those speeds, RAID 0 SATA SSD's for example I suppose, or a 40gbe NAS etc), but for normal consumer use, as I stated, there is no appreciable difference at all, its only theoretical and in use cases consumers will not have. NVMe is fantastic for the server space, its a nice to have for consumers.

 

Thanks for the clarification... eventually... sorta......

[NewMaxx]

If the manual states it supports PCIe M.2 drives that does not mean it supports NVMe. There are older boards that state M.2 PCIe support but only support AHCI drives. However, in the vast majority of cases, it does mean NVMe support.

[Legodude50]

2 hours ago, LIGISTX said:

I think your missing the point here with some of this.

 

But, if that is true, as far as supporting PCIe M.2 meaning it is in fact NVMe, then yes, it will work. That is not how I understood it, but that is likely due to bad product marketing since mobo's usually say "NVMe support" somewhere, not just M.2. But that could be a newer thing to "reduce the confusion" that even I must have. I thought the M.2 interface could be wired to either a SATA controller or PCIe, and depending if your BIOS/OS supported NVMe, it would either use that, or fall back to SATA. I must not fully understand the electrical design of this.

 

All of the mobo's I have worked with that do support NVMe clearly state "NVMe in their literature", so this must be where that confusion comes from. And as far as performance goes, yes, obviously there is a performance difference, as I stated, for file transfers from one NVMe drive to another (or any drive that can also read/write at those speeds, RAID 0 SATA SSD's for example I suppose, or a 40gbe NAS etc), but for normal consumer use, as I stated, there is no appreciable difference at all, its only theoretical and in use cases consumers will not have. NVMe is fantastic for the server space, its a nice to have for consumers.

 

Thanks for the clarification... eventually... sorta......

So in the manual it says the m.2 port supports either m.2 sata 6Gb/s nodule or m.2 PCIe module. The. Says m.2 interface does not support raid 0, raid1, raid5, and raid 10 

[Legodude50]

5 hours ago, LIGISTX said:

I think your missing the point here with some of this.

 

But, if that is true, as far as supporting PCIe M.2 meaning it is in fact NVMe, then yes, it will work. That is not how I understood it, but that is likely due to bad product marketing since mobo's usually say "NVMe support" somewhere, not just M.2. But that could be a newer thing to "reduce the confusion" that even I must have. I thought the M.2 interface could be wired to either a SATA controller or PCIe, and depending if your BIOS/OS supported NVMe, it would either use that, or fall back to SATA. I must not fully understand the electrical design of this.

 

All of the mobo's I have worked with that do support NVMe clearly state "NVMe in their literature", so this must be where that confusion comes from. And as far as performance goes, yes, obviously there is a performance difference, as I stated, for file transfers from one NVMe drive to another (or any drive that can also read/write at those speeds, RAID 0 SATA SSD's for example I suppose, or a 40gbe NAS etc), but for normal consumer use, as I stated, there is no appreciable difference at all, its only theoretical and in use cases consumers will not have. NVMe is fantastic for the server space, its a nice to have for consumers.

 

Thanks for the clarification... eventually... sorta......

My last concern would be heat, I’ve read that they can get pretty hot? And I’ve seen heatsinks for them? Is that only with the faster ones or is it very circumstantial? Like during large transfers, etc? 

[OmniDyne]

14 hours ago, LIGISTX said:

I thought the M.2 interface could be wired to either a SATA controller or PCIe, and depending if your BIOS/OS supported NVMe, it would either use that, or fall back to SATA. I must not fully understand the electrical design of this.

 

An M.2 PCIe SSD will not function as a SATA SSD. However, motherboards often do support both SATA and PCIe over M.2.

 

14 hours ago, LIGISTX said:

All of the mobo's I have worked with that do support NVMe clearly state "NVMe in their literature"

 

MSI, Gigabyte, Asus, ASRock; they do not specifically state M.2 PCIe SSDs utilize NVMe in the manual or on the product page. They all state "M.2 PCIe x2/x4 support". The only mention of NVMe I've found regarding storage has to do with configuration or PCIe x16 NVMe support or booting via NVMe.

 

14 hours ago, LIGISTX said:

And as far as performance goes, yes, obviously there is a performance difference, as I stated

 

That's not what you stated. You stated "there is no real performance difference".

 

14 hours ago, LIGISTX said:

but for normal consumer use, as I stated, there is no appreciable difference at all, its only theoretical and in use cases consumers will not have.

 

This is false. Consumers can absolutely realize performance differences when transferring from drive to drive.

 

14 hours ago, NewMaxx said:

If the manual states it supports PCIe M.2 drives that does not mean it supports NVMe.

 

What motherboards specifically state support for M.2 PCIe NVMe? I haven't seen one yet. As I stated above, there are only specific cases where NVMe is mentioned and it's never regarding M.2 PCIe support.

 

https://download.gigabyte.com/FileList/Manual/mb_manual_z390-aorus-ultra_1001_190219_e.pdf

 

https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1151/TUF_Z370-PLUS-GAMING-II/E14720_TUF_Z370_PLUS_GAMING_II_UM_WEB.pdf?_ga=2.239004355.2100305124.1584368493-1709474572.1582643030

 

https://download.gigabyte.com/FileList/Manual/mb_mamual_z370p-d3_1003_e.pdf

 

https://download.asrock.com/Manual/Z390 Phantom Gaming 7.pdf

14 hours ago, NewMaxx said:

There are older boards that state M.2 PCIe support but only support AHCI drives.

 

There are consumer motherboards that only support PCIe AHCI?

[NewMaxx]

3 hours ago, OmniDyne said:

There are consumer motherboards that only support PCIe AHCI?

Yes. Helped someone with this board recently: under Specification, one M.2 connector with "SATA & PCIe SSD support." If you then check its M.2 support list under "M.2 PCIe" you will see all the listed drives are AHCI. He was unable to get a NVMe drive to work on the board (the original problem) and it was fun explaining why.

[LIGISTX]

22 hours ago, Legodude50 said:

So in the manual it says the m.2 port supports either m.2 sata 6Gb/s nodule or m.2 PCIe module. The. Says m.2 interface does not support raid 0, raid1, raid5, and raid 10 

See, this is why I am never sure what things support.... Based on that, I would assume it supports non NVMe M.2 devices and NVMe variants as well.

 

Anyways, I would just get a SATA SSD tbh. There really isn't any performance difference to be seen by consumers, regardless of what others say. To see a file transfer speed change, you would either need another NVMe drive, or RAID 0 of at least 3 standard SSD's to copy or paste to/from. I do run a RAID 0 SSD Array in this PC, and when I do transfers from my NVMe drive to it, sure, things go faster, but its infrequent, and would require you also have that sort of setup. I am a big photoshop/lightroom user, I shot full frame RAWs, and I have used a single SSD, SSD's in RAID 0, and now an NVMe drive, and I really don't see any difference... Hard to have a use case that would, only 4/6k+ video editing, heavy VM usage with very large databases, or scientific applications would see real benefit. I, personally, can't tell a difference.

[Legodude50]

47 minutes ago, LIGISTX said:

See, this is why I am never sure what things support.... Based on that, I would assume it supports non NVMe M.2 devices and NVMe variants as well.

 

Anyways, I would just get a SATA SSD tbh. There really isn't any performance difference to be seen by consumers, regardless of what others say. To see a file transfer speed change, you would either need another NVMe drive, or RAID 0 of at least 3 standard SSD's to copy or paste to/from. I do run a RAID 0 SSD Array in this PC, and when I do transfers from my NVMe drive to it, sure, things go faster, but its infrequent, and would require you also have that sort of setup. I am a big photoshop/lightroom user, I shot full frame RAWs, and I have used a single SSD, SSD's in RAID 0, and now an NVMe drive, and I really don't see any difference... Hard to have a use case that would, only 4/6k+ video editing, heavy VM usage with very large databases, or scientific applications would see real benefit. I, personally, can't tell a difference.

Okay I think I’ll just go with a sata m.2. Can you think of any better one than the WD blue? That’s currently the one I’m planning on getting unless I find a better one 

[LIGISTX]

2 minutes ago, Legodude50 said:

Okay I think I’ll just go with a sata m.2. Can you think of any better one than the WD blue? That’s currently the one I’m planning on getting unless I find a better one 

I would even just get a standard SATA III drive... I guess if you go the N.2 route, we will know if your mobo supports SATA over M.2 lol. That what incredibly confusing to me, it seems like some do, and some do not.

 

But no, that WD blue is a good option. I run a standard SATA III version in my PC for my steam games.

[Legodude50]

4 minutes ago, LIGISTX said:

I would even just get a standard SATA III drive... I guess if you go the N.2 route, we will know if your mobo supports SATA over M.2 lol. That what incredibly confusing to me, it seems like some do, and some do not.

 

But no, that WD blue is a good option. I run a standard SATA III version in my PC for my steam games.

Which sata 3 do you use? I was thinking of that as well. But the regular sata 3 SSD I was thinking about is $150. The Samsung 860 evo. The WD blue m.2 is $109. And from what I read in the manual it seemed pretty clear that it accepts a m.2 sata and pcie connection. Between the WD blue m.2 and the 860 evo is one of them better? Or are they equal, just different form factors? Does one have a longer life span? I’m trying to understand why the evo is more expensive. Other than the fact Samsung is expensive. 

[LIGISTX]

1 hour ago, Legodude50 said:

Which sata 3 do you use? I was thinking of that as well. But the regular sata 3 SSD I was thinking about is $150. The Samsung 860 evo. The WD blue m.2 is $109. And from what I read in the manual it seemed pretty clear that it accepts a m.2 sata and pcie connection. Between the WD blue m.2 and the 860 evo is one of them better? Or are they equal, just different form factors? Does one have a longer life span? I’m trying to understand why the evo is more expensive. Other than the fact Samsung is expensive. 

The most recent one I got was a WB Blue SATA III drive. I have many though, but that is what I am using for steam right now. I did a lot of research into it, its a great lil drive.

[Legodude50]

7 minutes ago, LIGISTX said:

The most recent one I got was a WB Blue SATA III drive. I have many though, but that is what I am using for steam right now. I did a lot of research into it, its a great lil drive.

The sata 3 alternative is the same price as a SADATA m.2 nvme. $150. It is on sale though usually 220. It’s listed as best overall m.2 SSD on toms hardware. I’m going to watch some reviews to see what I think of it but I think it’s promising. Canadian made I believe from some comments. Heard people have used their drives for years. And it comes with a little DIY heat sink for it which is cool. I wasn’t necessarily planning on a nvme but if it’s the same price as the regular sata alternative, that’s a no brainer for me 

[LIGISTX]

35 minutes ago, Legodude50 said:

The sata 3 alternative is the same price as a SADATA m.2 nvme. $150. It is on sale though usually 220. It’s listed as best overall m.2 SSD on toms hardware. I’m going to watch some reviews to see what I think of it but I think it’s promising. Canadian made I believe from some comments. Heard people have used their drives for years. And it comes with a little DIY heat sink for it which is cool. I wasn’t necessarily planning on a nvme but if it’s the same price as the regular sata alternative, that’s a no brainer for me 

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B073SBQMCX/ref=twister_B07WXNPZL3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

 

120 bucks for me right now on Amazon. I got mine on cyber Monday for 79 or 89 iirc... That was a fantastic deal.

[Legodude50]

9 minutes ago, LIGISTX said:

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B073SBQMCX/ref=twister_B07WXNPZL3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

 

120 bucks for me right now on Amazon. I got mine on cyber Monday for 79 or 89 iirc... That was a fantastic deal.

https://smile.amazon.com/XPG-SX8200-Gen3x4-3000MB-ASX8200PNP-1TT-C/dp/B07K1J3C23/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?keywords=adata+ssd&qid=1584421723&sprefix=adata&sr=8-6 
take a look, see what you think? Also my motherboard is missing the m.2 screw. And when I try to find them on amazon all I see are kits with screwdrivers and crap. Know anywhere I can just get a couple? Preferably in black?

[LIGISTX]

26 minutes ago, Legodude50 said:

https://smile.amazon.com/XPG-SX8200-Gen3x4-3000MB-ASX8200PNP-1TT-C/dp/B07K1J3C23/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?keywords=adata+ssd&qid=1584421723&sprefix=adata&sr=8-6 
take a look, see what you think? Also my motherboard is missing the m.2 screw. And when I try to find them on amazon all I see are kits with screwdrivers and crap. Know anywhere I can just get a couple? Preferably in black?

Seems like a good deal to me! I think we are relatively confident your mobo supports NVMe now, so should be fine. 
 

And I don’t, I had the same issue but got lucky and a little RC car screw I had fit. 

[Legodude50]

1 hour ago, LIGISTX said:

Seems like a good deal to me! I think we are relatively confident your mobo supports NVMe now, so should be fine. 
 

And I don’t, I had the same issue but got lucky and a little RC car screw I had fit. 

Okay then I think I’m going to pull the trigger on this SSD! Wish me luck! Hopefully I can find a screw relatively easily, really appreciate all your continued feedback!