Convince me to buy AMD. (Seriously)

[Curufinwe_wins]

Ok guys. Super sad week for me, but my existing motherboard seemed to have shit the bed at some point when I was cleaning my loop.

 

So here I am, I'm aiming to replace an overclocked 5820k (for those that don't remember that is Haswell-E, 6 cores, 12 threads, I run at 4.5 Ghz). For rough performance estimates, I ran about 180 single core, 1250 all core in R15 a few years ago when I last cared.

 

Having had enough boot nightmares before due to also having SLI (yes, yes, but I'm not made of money these days so I'm not replacing that), I really REALLY don't want a cpu without an iGPU. It makes troubleshooting so much easier it just isn't funny. 

 

Problem is the 9700k does not seem like a decent upgrade tbh. Taking a 12% ST and 20% MT boost is super underwhelming. But the 9900k is insane in price. And only really gives a nice MT boost.

 

For AMD, other than the not great prospect of a iGPU, the only other issue is AVX. Counter to what most people think, AVX is downright amazing for performance, and dramatically accelerates loads that can make use of it. AMDs AVX implementation in Zen 2 isnt terrible, but it is very noticeably slower than Intels at the moment. 

 

For actual products, the 3700k looks like a great value offering nearly (outside the above) 9900k perf in both ST and MT at a 9700k price. The 3900k goes into insane mode 9900k pricing, but at least it's flipping godly at MT as a result.

 

Second problem. My ram is flipping slow. I have 32 GB of ancient DDR4-2400 CL16? (I know speed, I don't remember CL). I am NOT replacing it. This was not an expected expense and I cannot justify tossing (I have no other present use) 130-150 dollars of ram. Nor do I have the inclination to flip it at the moment.

 

So Zen2 will suffer. I mean both will suffer, but I expect Zen 2 would suffer more.

 

Anyways feedback would be appreciated. 

[Fasauceome]

12 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

For AMD, other than the not great prospect of a iGPU, the only other issue is AVX. Counter to what most people think, AVX is downright amazing for performance, and dramatically accelerates loads that can make use of it. AMDs AVX implementation in Zen 2 isnt terrible, but it is very noticeably slower than Intels at the moment. 

 

more cores at less cost helps the performance at least, when you compare a 9700K to a 3700X those extra threads can certainly make up lost grounds, although it depends on what software you're comparing. What specific AVX stuff are you usually doing?

12 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Second problem. My ram is flipping slow. I have 32 GB of ancient DDR4-2400 CL16? (I know speed, I don't remember CL). I am NOT replacing it. This was not an expected expense and I cannot justify tossing (I have no other present use) 130-150 dollars of ram. Nor do I have the inclination to flip it at the moment.

 

If you can overclock your memory you can of course alleviate this. Of course, $130 isn't necessarily what you'd need to spend for decent memory

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/RXyqqs/oloy-32-gb-2-x-16-gb-ddr4-3000-memory-md4u163016cgda

The real question is what budget do you plan on allocating to the motherboard? You can run a 3700X on a B450 board but an affordable X570 board might offer much better ram overclock options.

 

EDIT: also the infinity fabric speed can be overclocked on third gen Ryzen so you can further alleviate the issues caused by slow ram

[Sauron]

5 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

AMDs AVX implementation in Zen 2 isnt terrible, but it is very noticeably slower than Intels at the moment. 

I guess the question is... do you use heavy programs that actually take advantage of AVX512 or quicksync? If yes then Intel chips are going to be faster. Otherwise you're basically just burning money by going Intel.

7 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

This was not an expected expense and I cannot justify tossing (I have no other present use) 130-150 dollars of ram. Nor do I have the inclination to flip it at the moment.

Consider this - you could buy a 3700x and a new batch of faster ram for the price of a 9900k. And a year or two from now you could get a used 3900x or 3950x without changing anything else.

 

With that said, while faster ram usually matters with Ryzen that doesn't mean it's going to be slow with 2400Mhz sticks. Again it kind of depends on the workload.

[Guest]

You wanna know how flipping hard it is to convert an Intel Guy to AMD, follow this thread!!

 

_________________________ lol.

 

Your 2400mhz memory is just plain slow for anything modern. 

 

3600mhz for AMD

4000mhz for Intel

 

________

 

To convert a fella is difficult. I have both modern enough systems to tell you it's a very difficult choice.

 

AMD can Unzip my installation files in half the time. 

Intel still can overclock, AMD pretty much what's in the box is what you get.

AMD has better per watt performance. Meaning more cost efficient to operate.

Intel just has better memory performance and latency period. 

AVX o.p. pretty much covered.

Gaming is pretty much neck to neck.

AMD runs cooler, but also lower threshold.

Intel seems to be less problematic in it's entirety. 

AMD Memory controller can be a real bitch sometimes. 

Intel still stuck in 14nm. Nothing left to squeeze out.

AMD has better prices.

Intel retains it's value better / longer. 

 

Probably some more to it for actual use purposes, but that's just start of things that would stand out in my mind. 

[Curufinwe_wins]

25 minutes ago, Fasauceome said:

more cores at less cost helps the performance at least, when you compare a 9700K to a 3700X those extra threads can certainly make up lost grounds, although it depends on what software you're comparing. What specific AVX stuff are you usually doing?

If you can overclock your memory you can of course alleviate this. Of course, $130 isn't necessarily what you'd need to spend for decent memory

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/RXyqqs/oloy-32-gb-2-x-16-gb-ddr4-3000-memory-md4u163016cgda

The real question is what budget do you plan on allocating to the motherboard? You can run a 3700X on a B450 board but an affordable X570 board might offer much better ram overclock options.

 

24 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I guess the question is... do you use heavy programs that actually take advantage of AVX512 or quicksync? If yes then Intel chips are going to be faster. Otherwise you're basically just burning money by going Intel.

Consider this - you could buy a 3700x and a new batch of faster ram for the price of a 9900k. And a year or two from now you could get a used 3900x or 3950x without changing anything else.

 

With that said, while faster ram usually matters with Ryzen that doesn't mean it's going to be slow with 2400Mhz sticks. Again it kind of depends on the workload.

 

I view both the 3900k and 9900k at the greater expense halo option. On all systems I might be able to talk myself into buying the halo variant given the MT performance benefit. But tossing out the old ram (or not) is something I could do on any platform and as such shouldn't be considered a split cost difference justification. 

 

For everyone's reference... this is how much AVX can matter...

 

Now with that said, I don't use as AVX-heavy code as Linpack, but a number of my scientific codes (I do molecular dynamics and monte carlo particle transport) do make extensive use of it. 

 

I expect that in my work codes, the 3900X will end up roughly similar to the 9800k and 9900k in overall perf, with the 3700k being significantly slower, but I haven't actually benchmarked it. All will be a nice step up from my 5820k in that workload, but that is also not something I do all the time, so I am not saying it's a deal breaker.

 

I am not planning on and will not be swapping cpus out midplatform the same way I'm not going to toss away perfectly good ram.

 

While I have no particular care for overclocking on these two platforms (unlike x99, the perf difference is not super signficant), I will need a shitload of usb ports (my current board has 10) And I use 8 of them. It also has 2 usb 2.0 and 2 usb 3.0 onboard header, and all 4 are in use. So I will need one of a few rather particular motherboards regardless and I expect will have to shell out for a x570/z270 board just to get my feature set.

 

I also need to make sure I have at least a 4x slot available for a 10GbE SFP+ card, which I already own. I will want either onboard wifi or install my current wifi pcie card, but both of these things are not real limitations for the high end motherboards on either platform, so that's why I didn't bother mentioning it.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

 

 

Now with that said, I don't use as AVX-heavy code as Linpack, but a number of my scientific codes (I do molecular dynamics and monte carlo particle transport) do make extensive use of it. 

 

 

You buy the Intel then. 

[Sauron]

Well, see for yourself:

 

 

games are a worse case scenario for slow memory - as you can see it's not a huge difference anyway. There's a more detailed video on this by LTT

which shows that in other things such as cinebench the difference is barely noticeable. Overall I would say slow RAM isn't a big enough deal to make the 3700X any less appealing.

[Fasauceome]

2 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

While I have no particular care for overclocking on these two platforms (unlike x99, the perf difference is not super signficant), I will need a shitload of usb ports (my current board has 10) And I use 8 of them. It also has 2 usb 2.0 and 2 usb 3.0 onboard header, and all 4 are in use. So I will need a pretty high end motherboard regardless and I expect will have to shell out for a x570/z270 board just to get my feature set.

just for reference, I did a baseline comparison

 

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor	$289.99 @ Walmart
Motherboard	Asus Prime X470-Pro ATX AM4 Motherboard	$123.04 @ Amazon
Memory	OLOy 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory	$112.99 @ Newegg
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$526.02
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-03-10 21:14 EDT-0400

VS

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	Intel Core i7-9700K 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor	$369.99 @ Best Buy
Motherboard	ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming SLI/ac ATX LGA1151 Motherboard	$149.99 @ Newegg
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$519.98
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-03-10 21:15 EDT-0400

As you can see, even with the most budget friendly SLI compatible boards, the Intel setup is almost the same price and that's even without the ram. As for X470 compatibility woes, you can still email AMD customer support about the boot kit

https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-100#faq-Short-Term-Processor-Loan-Boot-Kit

and have the 200GE shipped to you (Assuming you haven't got a friend or local shop willing to loan you)

 

As for high end options (and as you said, without throwing away perfectly good ram)

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	Intel Core i7-9700K 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor	$369.99 @ Best Buy
Motherboard	Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO ATX LGA1151 Motherboard	$189.99 @ Amazon
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$559.98
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-03-10 21:29 EDT-0400

This board has 10 USB ports on the back (one is USB C), with 2x2.0 and 1x3.0 headers inside. It has a 3.1 header which could be adapted.

https://www.google.com/search?q=usb+3.1+to+3.0&rlz=1CAJPEZ_enUS861&oq=usb+3.1+to+3.0&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.6128j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor	$289.99 @ Walmart
Motherboard	Gigabyte X570 AORUS PRO WIFI ATX AM4 Motherboard	$248.99 @ B&H
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$538.98
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-03-10 21:31 EDT-0400

this board has all that as well as a second 3.0 header.

 

Honestly, it comes down to what you're doing most. If you have other multithreaded applications the 3700X will be coming out ahead each time, and It wouldn't be suffering so badly in AVX workloads. The motherboard has also got PCIe 4.0 if you love bragging rights.

[Curufinwe_wins]

10 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Well, see for yourself:

 

 

games are a worse case scenario for slow memory - as you can see it's not a huge difference anyway. There's a more detailed video on this by LTT

which shows that in other things such as cinebench the difference is barely noticeable. Overall I would say slow RAM isn't a big enough deal to make the 3700X any less appealing.

8% at max huh? Hmm.

 

Do you happen to know off hand what dual channel 2400 ram on Zen 2 results in for memory bandwidth? 

 

All platforms will probably end up at much lower bandwidth due to my speed compared to the quad channel I'm used to. I don't know if that will matter for my work codes honestly. I don't want to go back to the HEDT/TR2 platforms again though regardless.

[Curufinwe_wins]

7 minutes ago, Fasauceome said:

just for reference, I did a baseline comparison

 

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor	$289.99 @ Walmart
Motherboard	Asus Prime X470-Pro ATX AM4 Motherboard	$123.04 @ Amazon
Memory	OLOy 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory	$112.99 @ Newegg
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$526.02
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-03-10 21:14 EDT-0400

VS

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	Intel Core i7-9700K 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor	$369.99 @ Best Buy
Motherboard	ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming SLI/ac ATX LGA1151 Motherboard	$149.99 @ Newegg
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$519.98
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-03-10 21:15 EDT-0400

As you can see, even with the most budget friendly SLI compatible boards, the Intel setup is almost the same price and that's even without the ram. As for X470 compatibility woes, you can still email AMD customer support about the boot kit

https://www.amd.com/en/support/kb/faq/pa-100#faq-Short-Term-Processor-Loan-Boot-Kit

and have the 200GE shipped to you (Assuming you haven't got a friend or local shop willing to loan you)

 

As for high end options (and as you said, without throwing away perfectly good ram)

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	Intel Core i7-9700K 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor	$369.99 @ Best Buy
Motherboard	Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO ATX LGA1151 Motherboard	$189.99 @ Amazon
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$559.98
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-03-10 21:29 EDT-0400

This board has 10 USB ports on the back (one is USB C), with 2x2.0 and 1x3.0 headers inside. It has a 3.1 header which could be adapted.

https://www.google.com/search?q=usb+3.1+to+3.0&rlz=1CAJPEZ_enUS861&oq=usb+3.1+to+3.0&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l7.6128j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor	$289.99 @ Walmart
Motherboard	Gigabyte X570 AORUS PRO WIFI ATX AM4 Motherboard	$248.99 @ B&H
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total	$538.98
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-03-10 21:31 EDT-0400

this board has all that as well as a second 3.0 header.

 

Honestly, it comes down to what you're doing most. If you have other multithreaded applications the 3700X will be coming out ahead each time, and It wouldn't be suffering so badly in AVX workloads. The motherboard has also got PCIe 4.0 if you love bragging rights.

Thank you for breaking that out btw. So basically the same cost either way, just trading AVX specific performance vs non AVX MT performance. Both for the halo and non-halo variants of each platform. 

 

And then igpu... god darnit I wish AMD made a 3(7)900X with a gpu. Yes I'm an enthusiast, but I'm also enthusiast enough to know how much iGPUs are lifesavers.

 

Unless anyone randomly knows AMD boards outside of servers with an onboard bio gpu? (This is fairly common in servers)

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

8% at max huh? Hmm.

 

Do you happen to know off hand what dual channel 2400 ram on Zen 2 results in for memory bandwidth? 

 

All platforms will probably end up at much lower bandwidth due to my speed compared to the quad channel I'm used to. I don't know if that will matter for my work codes honestly. I really really don't want to go back to the HEDT/TR2 platforms again though regardless.

I could give you memory bandwidth from my 8700K. It's clocked (under-clocked) at 4000mhz CL 16-16-16.

None of this 3200mhz AMD stuff though. I consider that a slower end speed on Ryzen 2. I run my Zen+ at XMP frequency, it's noticable quite a bit from 2400mhz.

We used to hit 2200 2400mhz on DDR3. I'd upgrade it, but understand budgets. You'd leave a quite a bit of performance on the table, leaving the beat to death cinebench argument on the floor though. The tell all system configuration test right there, let me tell you lol.

[Curufinwe_wins]

7 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

I could give you memory bandwidth from my 8700K. It's clocked (under-clocked) at 4000mhz CL 16-16-16.

None of this 3200mhz AMD stuff though. I consider that a slower end speed on Ryzen 2. I run my Zen+ at XMP frequency, it's noticable quite a bit from 2400mhz.

We used to hit 2200 2400mhz on DDR3. I'd upgrade it, but understand budgets. You'd leave a quite a bit of performance on the table, leaving the beat to death cinebench argument on the floor though. The tell all system configuration test right there let, me tell you lol.

I mean honestly it's more an anger/waste thing than anything rational. I'm still furious that this damn thing broke. And furious that I need to spend money right now, when I can't even wait till the 10th gen for Intel and if AMD drops prices in response. (Or if Intel does, just like they did for 10th gen HEDT)

 

I saw some notes that the particular ram kit I had have occasionally been OCd to 3000 or so, but my IMC on my particular 5820k was literal hot garbage trashheap of epic proportions (you cant imagine how much time I spent troubleshooting ram problems back in the day, and I even RMAd the set at one point and confirmed there werent any other issues on other systems). Haswell-E was the first DDR4 platform, and the 5820k was cutdown for reasons hahaha.

 

It's possible I can do some good ram overclocking on this set now that the cpus have good IMCs. I just don't want to assume I can. 

[Guest]

Just now, Curufinwe_wins said:

I mean honestly it's more an anger/waste thing than anything rational. I'm still furious that this damn thing broke. And furious that I need to spend money right now, when I can't even wait till the 10th gen for Intel and if AMD drops prices in response. (Or if Intel does, just like they did for 10th gen HEDT)

 

I saw some notes that the particular ram kit I had have occasionally been OCd to 3000 or so, but my IMC on my particular 5820k was literal hot garbage trashheap of epic proportions (you cant imagine how much time I spent troubleshooting ram problems back in the day, and I even RMAd the set at one point and confirmed there werent any other issues on other systems at the time). Haswell-E was the first DDR4 platform, and the 5820k was cutdown for reasons hahaha.

 

It's possible I can do some good ram overclocking on this set now that the cpus have good IMCs. I just don't want to assume I can. 

Well ya you lost a really nice setup. 

 

Thought Intel was already on the release of 10th Gen?? Something like Core i9 10900X 10 core 20 threads. 

I think they just aren't releasing a bunch all at once. The above is a purchasable example though.

 

I'd like to think you could squeeze 3000mhz from your kit, more likely on an Intel IMC but doable. 

 

If you need big core count, AVX and memory aside, you'd go with AMD 3900X or bigger. 

 

A 3700X is not impressive enough for me to upgrade from a 2700x honestly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Curufinwe_wins]

4 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Well ya you lost a really nice setup. 

 

Thought Intel was already on the release of 10th Gen?? Something like Core i9 10900X 10 core 20 threads. 

I think they just aren't releasing a bunch all at once. The above is a purchasable example though.

 

I'd like to think you could squeeze 3000mhz from your kit, more likely on an Intel IMC but doable. 

 

If you need big core count, AVX and memory aside, you'd go with AMD 3900X or bigger. 

 

A 3700X is not impressive enough for me to upgrade from a 2700x honestly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The 10th gen HEDT is out. But that's a nightmare. The 10th gen mainstream isn't yet. Most recent leaks suggest it will come out between April and June.

 

[Sir0Tek]

May I throw in bargain 12cores and quad-channel?

 

 

CPU: AMD Threadripper 1920X 3.5 GHz 12-Core Processor  ($199.99 @ Amazon) 
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-U12S TR4-SP3 54.97 CFM CPU Cooler  ($69.95 @ Amazon) 
Motherboard: Gigabyte X399 AORUS PRO ATX sTR4 Motherboard  ($279.99 @ Amazon) 
Total: $549.93
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-03-10 22:05 EDT-0400

[Curufinwe_wins]

3 minutes ago, Sir0Tek said:

May I throw in bargain 12cores and quad-channel?

 

 

CPU: AMD Threadripper 1920X 3.5 GHz 12-Core Processor  ($199.99 @ Amazon) 
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-U12S TR4-SP3 54.97 CFM CPU Cooler  ($69.95 @ Amazon) 
Motherboard: Gigabyte X399 AORUS PRO ATX sTR4 Motherboard  ($279.99 @ Amazon) 
Total: $549.93
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-03-10 22:05 EDT-0400

You can try, but that would be a regression in almost every workload I care about. And numa nightmare... 

 

Thanks for bringing up the option though hahaha.

 

 

To all, I know I'm making things even more complicated, but why the flip are post code displays limited to the extreme high end on x570? (Again I do need at least 8 usb ports, and prefer at least 10 lol)

[Beerzerker]

AMD costs less and I'd expect if something costs twice as much for example I'd better get twice the performance on a "Per dollar basis".
Too bad Intel doesn't give that for the money.
Nuff said.

[Fasauceome]

8 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

To all, I know I'm making things even more complicated, but why the flip are post code displays limited to the extreme high end on x570?

Generally it's just a cost adder so you'll only see it on expensive boards regardless. 

 

8 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Again I do need at least 8 usb ports, and prefer at least 10 lol

The new hotness is having at least one USB C port, hope that doesn't bother you

[Beerzerker]

Agreed - Just another feature you pay for, it's nice but not required.

[Curufinwe_wins]

4 minutes ago, Fasauceome said:

Generally it's just a cost adder so you'll only see it on expensive boards regardless. 

 

The new hotness is having at least one USB C port, hope that doesn't bother you

I mean go back 5 years and any board over 150 dollars had one... why not now? Same cost (even direct equivalents) for Intel tend to have them. Ugh.

 

The one usb c is ok. Not good, but fine.

[Curufinwe_wins]

4 minutes ago, Caroline said:

If you're doing science stuff wouldn't a Xeon be better?

I don't need that much science hahaha. And money...

 

(Not surprisingly, even class leading science codes are not always very scalable. Particularly older legacy ones, though those codes would not show huge differences between any of these 4 cpus)

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

I mean go back 5 years and any board over 150 dollars had one... why not now? Same cost (even direct equivalents) for Intel tend to have them. Ugh.

 

The one usb c is ok. Not good, but fine.

AMD "overclocking is dead" 

Competitive benchmarking is now become a thing of the past. We no longer need to seek performance like this anymore.

 

So, why equip boards with OC features on AMD. They don't overclock lol. Pointless unless you are into LN2.

[Fasauceome]

4 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

I mean go back 5 years and any board over 150 dollars had one... why not now? Same cost (even direct equivalents) for Intel tend to have them. Ugh.

Well I think it's partially because "high end" has moved up generally

[Curufinwe_wins]

5 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

AMD "overclocking is dead" 

Competitive benchmarking is now become a thing of the past. We no longer need to seek performance like this anymore.

 

So, why equip boards with OC features on AMD. They don't overclock lol. Pointless unless you are into LN2.

But boot codes arent just for overclocking... 

 

I mean you are right. But still. I would want at least a boot code display or igpu. I am not dealing with unknown boot failures all over again in the future.

 

(My current motherboard used an 11th usb port to use a phone app to display post codes. An app that wasnt updated the last 3 years.... yes that went predictably wrong...)

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

But boot codes arent just for overclocking... 

 

I mean you are right. But still. I would want at least a boot code display or igpu. I am not dealing with unknown boot failures all over again in the future.

I really don't need to talk you into buying an AMD. That would be wrong to do on my part. 

 

Can you imagine?? I buy a 3700X today at newegg 300$ bucks, a year from now it drops to 150$. Just like my 2700X did. Wanna have a salty feeling?? Do that. Mad as Fuck about it honestly. I spent my left Arm on a slower AMD cpu lol. And then watch people buy the same thing on a much tighter budget. Crazy to think 16 thread performance at only 150$ bucks and I can still call it HEDT IMO.