The end of lightning is nigh, possibly.

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, Phill104 said:

It is frustrating, very frustrating. However, there is an evolution involved. Do we simply adopt the first popular connector that arrives then realise when everyone has jumped aboard it is a pile of vista? Or do we let evolution take hold, a format war of sorts and hopefully end up with something decent? In the early days of any new concept we go through this no matter what the product from cassette to car etc.

The theory I am guessing is that they are calling the format war already won.  I’m not sure it’s a great idea quite yet myself.  As I’ve stated earlier though I don’t think it is why it is actually being done.  The justification is stated but I suspect the actual reason is still hidden.  

[Bombastinator]

Just now, RejZoR said:

I'm not smoking anything, just wondering if people shove phones up pigs butts and charge them while they are there and pigs are flying. Only way to fuck up things in ways people say they fuck up...

I take your point but it seems much easier to do than that, particularly if the cables are loophole cables.

[pas008]

6 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

I'm not smoking anything, just wondering if people shove phones up pigs butts and charge them while they are there and pigs are flying. Only way to fuck up things in ways people say they fuck up...

yeah

you are right everyone treats their devices like shit and thats how cables and ports go bad

[Bombastinator]

Just now, pas008 said:

yeah

you are right everyone treats their devices like shit and thats how cables and ports go bad

Only some of them.  Enough for it to be a problem.

[pas008]

6 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Only some of them.  Enough for it to be a problem.

no matter the connector and cable there will always be issues

everyone of them has fixes from search results to videos

 

problem is needing over 9000 different types of connectors and cables

[RejZoR]

People are stupid enough to have problems with regular power connectors. Literally two metal rods sticking out of a connector, several millimeters of thick metal and people find a way to fuck it up.

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

People are stupid enough to have problems with regular power connectors. Literally two metal rods sticking out of a connector, several millimeters of thick metal and people find a way to fuck it up.

There’s a famous World War Two era story about that one. Had to do with triangular pegs and square holes or something.  It’s a major reason usbC is symmetrical.  Solves that issue. Steve Jobs actually thought two buttons was too complicated.  Humans are humans though. Got to work with what is available.

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, poochyena said:

explain to me how the early 2000s situation with charging cables is better for anyone.

 

2 hours ago, comander said:

A bit off topic but Mini USB wasn't THAT bad. In some ways I prefer mini USB to micro-USB. 

Micro-USB is REALLY finicky. 
 

The difference between lightning and USB-C isn't very big. 
If we had a blank slate where no one has any adapters or other devices and individuals had to choose several options:
1. mish-mash of adapters
2. USB-C
3. lightning (with USB-3 support and some other extras it doesn't have)

 

I STRONGLY suspect that option 1 would be universally detested and that there'd be A LOT of indifference between option 2 and 3. 

Forcing one instransigant company to make a relatively minor change is relatively light touch. 

 

You're confusing personal experience and opinion on connectors with the core argument that innovation comes from freedom to implement and test new technology.

 

It doesn't matter if USB C and lightning are similar or how well micro USB can last if 30 other types of even better connectors have not even been trialed in house because companies aren't allowed to use them on their products.

 

It's a double edged sword and one opinion doesn't trump the other.   Sure having every phone use the same connector is better for the consumer in many ways, but it is also not good for the consumer in that we have no choices and companies aren't given any incentive to develop something better.  

[poochyena]

29 minutes ago, mr moose said:

but it is also not good for the consumer in that we have no choices

why do you keep asserting that less choice = bad? This isn't opinion, its objectively worse for consumers when there is no charging standard. It costs the consumer more in time and money. "choice", alone, is not an advantage.

 

31 minutes ago, mr moose said:

companies aren't given any incentive to develop something better.  

??????????
Creating a better product = more sales, no? How could it even be any better?

[The Torrent]

if they phased it out i would stockpile on lightning to usb c to lightning adapters and EL-8 cipher cables because they sound awesome and their prices will plummet.

[Donut417]

10 minutes ago, poochyena said:

no charging standard.

A standard cable is not a charging standard. How many wireless standards exist? How many fast charging standards? Doesn’t address those issues. 

[Bombastinator]

5 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

A standard cable is not a charging standard. How many wireless standards exist? How many fast charging standards? Doesn’t address those issues. 

Well for wireless there WiFi, there’s Bluetooth, and there’s a pile of proprietary dongle stuff that people generally hate but put up with because they’re cheap.

[Donut417]

Just now, Bombastinator said:

Well for wireless there WiFi, there’s Bluetooth, and there’s a pile of proprietary dongle stuff that people generally hate but put up with because they’re cheap.

I’m talking charging standards!

[Bombastinator]

10 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

I’m talking charging standards!

Oh!  Then there’s just one: Qi.

[cj09beira]

here comes mama Eu again screaming afraid someone hurts their knee, this is not the job of the government 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, poochyena said:

why do you keep asserting that less choice = bad? This isn't opinion, its objectively worse for consumers when there is no charging standard. It costs the consumer more in time and money. "choice", alone, is not an advantage.

 

??????????
Creating a better product = more sales, no? How could it even be any better?

So when should the EU have stepped in? A lot of people loved the round Nokia charge cable, should that have been the point and a connector we are still all using now? What about microUSB, or 30pin Apple, or that terrible Ericsson thing. And that is the point, at the time some of those connections looked like the future, they looked like they were the best and nothing better would ever appear. Looking back they were terrible. I remember a time where every stereo maker had a blooming Apple dock on them, and supplied a box of silly plastic adapters to drop I. So different Apple devices would fit. They have all ended up in landfill as that amazing connector to end all connectors is consigned to the history of poor crap. In time USB C will go the same way but how long could we be stuck with it if legislators forced it to become a standard?

[Donut417]

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

h!  Then there’s just one: Qi.

AHHH. No there are competing standards. Qi is just popular but its not the only one. 

[Bombastinator]

23 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

AHHH. No there are competing standards. Qi is just popular but its not the only one. 

heh.  Comparing physics to copywrite.

 

How about this? Are they Compatible or incompatible?  If they are not compatible are they designed for the kind of wireless charging used by such things as phones? 
 

 it’s radio.  The concept for wireless power was invented by tesla.  The entire thing has been uncopywritable for a hundred years.  Are there much much bigger ones?  Sure.  People have built model planes powered by wireless power, designed to have ranges of hundreds of feet and it was totally different from Qi.  There just isn’t much that can be done.  5v over 1/8th of an inch means antennas of a certain size.  Flatness requires them to be a certain shape.  This isn’t data, it’s just electricity.  If a device is compatible is it really different?  What makes lightning connectors incompatible is shape.  Thunderbolt3 is compatible with UsbC and has the same kind of connector.  People plug UsbC stuff into thunderbolt3 ports all the time.  That’s data.  A thunderbolt3 port is different in that while it provides the same power it’s data capacities are different.

 Wireless power doesn’t do data.  This is like the difference between ibm and ibm compatible.  I have a PC. It doesn’t know a thing about IBM.  It’s still a PC though.  This is a distinction without a difference.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by Bombastinator
Addition for clarity of point

[poochyena]

1 hour ago, Phill104 said:

So when should the EU have stepped in?

any time

1 hour ago, Phill104 said:

A lot of people loved the round Nokia charge cable, should that have been the point and a connector we are still all using now?

sure

1 hour ago, Phill104 said:

And that is the point, at the time some of those connections looked like the future, they looked like they were the best and nothing better would ever appear. Looking back they were terrible.

so we upgrade as get better tech
 

1 hour ago, Phill104 said:

In time USB C will go the same way but how long could we be stuck with it if legislators forced it to become a standard?

for as long as its needed, like the other connectors mentioned.

[ARikozuM]

I'm all for this. No more manufacturers having your old accessories and chargers be trashed for nothing. We might actually get more competition and innovation by putting all effort behind a single connector. 

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, poochyena said:

why do you keep asserting that less choice = bad? This isn't opinion, its objectively worse for consumers when there is no charging standard. It costs the consumer more in time and money. "choice", alone, is not an advantage.

Again that's your opinion, not an objective fact.   If it were an objective fact this discussion wouldn't even be happening.

 

5 hours ago, poochyena said:

??????????
Creating a better product = more sales, no? How could it even be any better?

Can't get more sales from creating a better connector if they aren't allowed to sell products with that connector. 

 

 

5 hours ago, comander said:

Lightning isn't exactly new technology. Its alternative isn't either and it's tried and tested. 
 

True,  neither are new and we only know they are the best that are on offer,  it's only tried and tested because it was being developed before these mandates were floated.  Imagine if they  mandated all phones had to have the 5 pin mini USB,  Apple wouldn't have developed lighting because they would have been forced to use Mini USB instead.  If the EU mandated Mini USB before lightning or USB C were developed there is every chance wouldn't have lighting or USB C to compare them to.

 

5 hours ago, comander said:

If Apple wants to release two variants of their product, one with lightning and one with USB-C, I wouldn't get in their way. 
As it stands they aren't giving consumers a choice which is arguably best for them. This wouldn't be feasible if Apple didn't have a dominant market position that they could abuse. 

 

As stated, Apple could conceivably have two different variants. 
Also there are incentives to adopt new standards and standards are usually developed through a consortium. 
As it stands thunderbolt is an old, openish standard in a different form factor. 
Using a standardized form factor stop companies from extending a data or power transmission standard. USB-C supports many different features but many are optional. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_Implementers_Forum

 

 

 

Even though we have the USB consortium,  how many companies are going to invest in a new connector if they aren't allowed to use it?  Apple have already said this will stifle innovation, I am sure if the others are faced with similar issues in selling new connectors they won't develop them either. 

 

 

[Kisai]

I think some people in the thread are not aware of how the EU's original meddling about requiring USB as a charging standard in 2009 is how we got where we are now with every mobile device being charged by USB, at the charger end.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply

 

Quote

In June 2009, many of the world's largest mobile phone manufacturers signed an EC-sponsored memorandum of understanding (MoU), agreeing to make most new data-enabled mobile phones marketed in the European Union compatible with a to-be-specified common EPS. All signatories agreed to develop a common specification for the EPS "to allow for full compatibility and safety of chargers and mobile phones."^[1] 14 mobile phone manufacturers and technology providers signed the MoU – the original 10 signatories, Apple, LG, Motorola, NEC, Nokia, Qualcomm, RIM, Samsung, Sony Ericsson, and Texas Instruments as well as Atmel, Emblaze Mobile, Huawei Technologies and TCT Mobile (Alcatel).^[2]

 

Quote

The common EPS specification relies heavily on existing USB electro-mechanical standards – especially the USB Battery Charging Specification. By the mid-2000s, many mobile phone manufacturers (as well as manufacturers of other small battery-powered devices) had already begun designing their products with the ability to use a USB port's 5 V DC power to recharge batteries. The USB Implementers Forum, recognizing this trend, updated the USB standard in 2007 to better accommodate this popular battery-charging application of USB ports, primarily by defining "charging ports" which can provide more current allowing faster re-charging of batteries.^[7][8] In November 2010, the IEC signed an agreement with the USB Implementers Forum, which led to the IEC incorporating USB specifications into the IEC 62684:2011 International Standard.

 

So complaining that this somehow will stifle innovation has already been proven false.

 

However if you read further you'll also note that 100w+ devices and automotive devices are unsuitable for USB-C. In the case of the automobile, it's because of environmental conditions inside the car (where you know it can be hot enough to cook food, or cold enough to form ice.)

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Kisai said:

I think some people in the thread are not aware of how the EU's original meddling about requiring USB as a charging standard in 2009 is how we got where we are now with every mobile device being charged by USB, at the charger end.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply

 

 

 

So complaining that this somehow will stifle innovation has already been proven false.

 

However if you read further you'll also note that 100w+ devices and automotive devices are unsuitable for USB-C. In the case of the automobile, it's because of environmental conditions inside the car (where you know it can be hot enough to cook food, or cold enough to form ice.)

What happened in 2009 is quite different to the current proposal. It was an agreement to develop, not regulation on a current standard. It allowed and encouraged a new standard as well as continuing development. The new proposal fixes a standard in place for all to use. The EU operates very slowly on things like this, technology moves along much faster so it is very likely a level of stifling will occur.

[mr moose]

52 minutes ago, Kisai said:

I think some people in the thread are not aware of how the EU's original meddling about requiring USB as a charging standard in 2009 is how we got where we are now with every mobile device being charged by USB, at the charger end.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply

 

 

 

So complaining that this somehow will stifle innovation has already been proven false.

 

However if you read further you'll also note that 100w+ devices and automotive devices are unsuitable for USB-C. In the case of the automobile, it's because of environmental conditions inside the car (where you know it can be hot enough to cook food, or cold enough to form ice.)

 

The argument as I understand it has moved on from the connector at the charger to the connector on the device.  

[kokakolia]

7 hours ago, ARikozuM said:

I'm all for this. No more manufacturers having your old accessories and chargers be trashed for nothing. We might actually get more competition and innovation by putting all effort behind a single connector. 

To be fair, the only problem is Apple. Every other company on the planet is adopting USB C with open arms.