3600Mhz Ram vs Over clocking 3200/3000

[MorbidNature]

So im switching different parts of my build and I'm in the market for some RAM

Just not sure what will be the better value/stable going out and buying a 3600 (pairing with a ryzen 3rd gen) or just getting a 3200/3000 Mhz kit and OC it

(Never OCed RAM, mostly used XMP but im willing to give it a shot)

 

Iv'e been looking at kits like G.SKILL Ripjaws V Series 32GB 3200, overall good reviews and seem really decent value.

 

I'm pairing this with a GIGABYTE X570 AORUS Elite, which should have fairly decent OC capability for the RAM

[boggy77]

Activating xmp is technically overclocking. 

Ram rated at 3200 means the manufacturer tested it and is guaranteed to oc stable at 3200 1.35V. You may be able to oc to 3600, but on higher voltage, with higher temperature and possibly looser timings.

Ram rated at 3600 is guaranteed to oc to 3600 at 1.35v.

Ryzen benefits from fast ram, the sweet spot being a 3600c16 or 3600c14 kit. The c14 ones are very expensive and not worth it. The c16 however you can sometimes find it at a reasonable price (say 10% more expensive than a 3200 c16) and should give a 10% performance increase. I wouldn't pay more than a 10% difference though, and sometimes you can find 3200 c14 or c15 for cheaper which will have similar performance.

 

 

[MorbidNature]

Just now, boggy77 said:

Activating xmp is technically overclocking. 

Ram rated at 3200 means the manufacturer tested it and is guaranteed to oc stable at 3200 1.35V. You may be able to oc to 3600, but on higher voltage, with higher temperature and possibly looser timings.

Ram rated at 3600 is guaranteed to oc to 3600 at 1.35v.

Ryzen benefits from fast ram, the sweet spot being a 3600c16 or 3600c14 kit. The c14 ones are very expensive and not worth it. The c16 however you can sometimes find it at a reasonable price (say 10% more expensive than a 3200 c16) and should give a 10% performance increase. I wouldn't pay more than a 10% difference though, and sometimes you can find 3200 c14 or c15 for cheaper which will have similar performance.

 

 

So correct me if im wrong but your saying that the price gap of the 3200 to the 3600 is worth the investment in most cases since the looser timing might hinder the performance benift

[boggy77]

Just now, MorbidNature said:

So correct me if im wrong but your saying that the price gap of the 3200 to the 3600 is worth the investment in most cases since the looser timing might hinder the performance benift

It depends on the task really, but in general, there is little difference between running 3000 c15, 3200 c16 and 3600 c18.

Manually setting timings as tight as possible is always an option and will increase performance. Saying that, there is more room to tighten timings on a 3600 c18 kit than on a 3200 c16. You migh be able to get both to c14, in which case the 3600 will have a clear advantage. 

But yes, unless you have a particular application in which you NEED fast ram and timings, keep in mind that you can at most get a 10% performance increase between a 3200 and a 3600 kit, so if the price gap is larger, it's probably not worth it.

[MorbidNature]

Just now, boggy77 said:

It depends on the task really, but in general, there is little difference between running 3000 c15, 3200 c16 and 3600 c18.

Manually setting timings as tight as possible is always an option and will increase performance. Saying that, there is more room to tighten timings on a 3600 c18 kit than on a 3200 c16. You migh be able to get both to c14, in which case the 3600 will have a clear advantage. 

But yes, unless you have a particular application in which you NEED fast ram and timings, keep in mind that you can at most get a 10% performance increase between a 3200 and a 3600 kit, so if the price gap is larger, it's probably not worth it.

That's the thing, after doing some digging i found the G.SKILL Ripjaws V Series at 3600 and 3200.

The 3600 is surprisingly cheaper than the 3200 (in my region via Newegg), thing is it has slightly worse timing

( Timing 16-19-19-39  ) on the 3600 VS  (Timing 16-18-18-38 )

Question is in real world performance should it make much of a difference (im leaving out changing the timing for argument sake)

[pas008]

27 minutes ago, boggy77 said:

Activating xmp is technically overclocking. 

Ram rated at 3200 means the manufacturer tested it and is guaranteed to oc stable at 3200 1.35V. You may be able to oc to 3600, but on higher voltage, with higher temperature and possibly looser timings.

Ram rated at 3600 is guaranteed to oc to 3600 at 1.35v.

Ryzen benefits from fast ram, the sweet spot being a 3600c16 or 3600c14 kit. The c14 ones are very expensive and not worth it. The c16 however you can sometimes find it at a reasonable price (say 10% more expensive than a 3200 c16) and should give a 10% performance increase. I wouldn't pay more than a 10% difference though, and sometimes you can find 3200 c14 or c15 for cheaper which will have similar performance.

 

 

i disagree

if the manufacturer guarantees it how is this overclocking

cpus are guaranteed frequencies and thats not overclocking until you go outside their guarantee specs

 

[TheDankKoosh]

1 hour ago, MorbidNature said:

That's the thing, after doing some digging i found the G.SKILL Ripjaws V Series at 3600 and 3200.

The 3600 is surprisingly cheaper than the 3200 (in my region via Newegg), thing is it has slightly worse timing

( Timing 16-19-19-39  ) on the 3600 VS  (Timing 16-18-18-38 )

Question is in real world performance should it make much of a difference (im leaving out changing the timing for argument sake)

The 3600 cl16 is a MUCH higher memory bin than the 3200 cl16, so for instance, if you tried to oc that 3200 memory to the same 3600 it would most likely require more voltage and or looser timings. 3000/3200 cl16 are typically using fairly poor memory IC's as well (hynix mfr/afr) but there are a few good kits mixed in there (micron rev. e). The 3600 cl16 is most likely either hynix cjr or djr which are both fairly good memory IC's that can be tuned well. If you want a good plug and play kit, get the 3600 cl16, if you want to experiment with ram overclocking I'll link a good kit and oc guide below.

 

OC guide: https://github.com/integralfx/MemTestHelper/blob/master/DDR4 OC Guide.md

Decent kit of micron rev. e: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MGPH9R9?tag=pcpapi-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1

 

[xg32]

2 hours ago, MorbidNature said:

That's the thing, after doing some digging i found the G.SKILL Ripjaws V Series at 3600 and 3200.

The 3600 is surprisingly cheaper than the 3200 (in my region via Newegg), thing is it has slightly worse timing

( Timing 16-19-19-39  ) on the 3600 VS  (Timing 16-18-18-38 )

Question is in real world performance should it make much of a difference (im leaving out changing the timing for argument sake)

the price difference atm is around 30usd, you are looking at around a 5% boost in actual performance, it's super efficient. go for the cl16 3600 kit imho.

 

the 3200 kit that's more expensive was the first 3200 kit that came out for zen 1 (basically almost guaranteed 3200 which was a feat at the time)

[boggy77]

4 hours ago, MorbidNature said:

That's the thing, after doing some digging i found the G.SKILL Ripjaws V Series at 3600 and 3200.

The 3600 is surprisingly cheaper than the 3200 (in my region via Newegg), thing is it has slightly worse timing

( Timing 16-19-19-39  ) on the 3600 VS  (Timing 16-18-18-38 )

Question is in real world performance should it make much of a difference (im leaving out changing the timing for argument sake)

The 3600 c16 will perform better han the 3200 c16. The other sub timings matter a bit less.

[boggy77]

5 hours ago, pas008 said:

i disagree

if the manufacturer guarantees it how is this overclocking

cpus are guaranteed frequencies and thats not overclocking until you go outside their guarantee specs

 

Ddr4 base frequency is 2133. Ryzen's base memory controlller frequency is 2933. Anything above 2933 is considered overclocking

[Midnitewolf]

5 hours ago, pas008 said:

i disagree

if the manufacturer guarantees it how is this overclocking

cpus are guaranteed frequencies and thats not overclocking until you go outside their guarantee specs

 

The way I understand it is that XMP stands for Extended Memory Profile which implies it is not using stock settings but rather boosted settings therefore you technically are OC'ing the RAM.  However, I agree with you that if the manufacture says this is the rating of your RAM then again "technically" you should "theoretically" be operating the RAM within its design specifications.  Personally, I think this is just is all just obsolete terminology that needs to be revised based on current usage and technology.  

[pas008]

3 hours ago, boggy77 said:

Ddr4 base frequency is 2133. Ryzen's base memory controlller frequency is 2933. Anything above 2933 is considered overclocking

oh wow

so cpu/gpu base frequencies are low and they boost higher so when cpu is boosting is it overclocking? no

 

 

ram has specs from the manufacturer

like 3200 cl16

once you go past that you are overclocking or undervolting

 

2 hours ago, Midnitewolf said:

The way I understand it is that XMP stands for Extended Memory Profile which implies it is not using stock settings but rather boosted settings therefore you technically are OC'ing the RAM.  However, I agree with you that if the manufacture says this is the rating of your RAM then again "technically" you should "theoretically" be operating the RAM within its design specifications.  Personally, I think this is just is all just obsolete terminology that needs to be revised based on current usage and technology.  

overclocking ram is once you run it out of manufacturers specs thats what they guarantee period

xmp profiles are built into the ram, if its built in how is it overclocking just like boosting on cpus/gpus

 

 

[Squirrel724]

9 hours ago, pas008 said:

i disagree

if the manufacturer guarantees it how is this overclocking

cpus are guaranteed frequencies and thats not overclocking until you go outside their guarantee specs

 

The DDR4 specifications include various standards for up to 3200MHz. What 3600+MHz DIMMs mean for you is that the DRAMs and layout of the DIMMs are designed and tested to work at those high frequencies.

 

What you are actually doing when applying an XMP profile to get to your RAM's listed speed of 3600+MHz is overclocking the memory controller to run at speeds higher than the DDR4 standard it was designed for. 

 

Take for example my build. I'm running a R9 3900X with Corsair 3600MHz RAM. If you go to AMDs product page for the 3900x you will see that the memory controller in the processor is rated at 3200MHz meaning it is designed to meet the DDR4-3200 PC4-25600 standard, the fastest standard in the DDR4 specification. While Corsair has rated my DIMMs to run at speeds of 3600MHz my memory controller is being overclocked in order to reach those speeds. Where that line for overclocking is moves based on the processor in the system (for example an i9 9900k is only rated to DDR4-2666 PC4-21333) but anything past 3200MHz is an overclock as that's the fastest the standard goes.

[pas008]

22 minutes ago, Squirrel724 said:

The DDR4 specifications include various standards for up to 3200MHz. What 3600+MHz DIMMs mean for you is that the DRAMs and layout of the DIMMs are designed and tested to work at those high frequencies.

 

What you are actually doing when applying an XMP profile to get to your RAM's listed speed of 3600+MHz is overclocking the memory controller to run at speeds higher than the DDR4 standard it was designed for. 

 

Take for example my build. I'm running a R9 3900X with Corsair 3600MHz RAM. If you go to AMDs product page for the 3900x you will see that the memory controller in the processor is rated at 3200MHz meaning it is designed to meet the DDR4-3200 PC4-25600 standard, the fastest standard in the DDR4 specification. While Corsair has rated my DIMMs to run at speeds of 3600MHz my memory controller is being overclocked in order to reach those speeds. Where that line for overclocking is moves based on the processor in the system (for example an i9 9900k is only rated to DDR4-2666 PC4-21333) but anything past 3200MHz is an overclock as that's the fastest the standard goes.

Where's the memory controller?

 

[Squirrel724]

1 minute ago, pas008 said:

Where's the memory controller?

 

Built into the processor. The Intel Arc / AMD product page for your processor will tell you the fastest speed your processor is officially designed to meet. 

[Kitsan]

XMP *is* overclocking if the spec is higher than the CPU/Ram base clock, if you have a weak IMC/motherboard...etc there is a small potential you wont be able to run Ram specs past base clocks.

 

I would suggest getting the 3600 kit and have some fun tinkering watch a few vids first though as the motherboard/memory training process can be a bit disconcerting at first when it goes into its restart loops!

 

The good thing about memory tuning is that Ram speed/timings are generally allot tougher/forgiving than your Cpu core clock.

 

Worth/value is always subjective, if you've not done it before you need to find out for yourself. Do you "need" 5% extra performance? Probably not... but you'll probably enjoy getting it

[Otto_iii]

11 hours ago, MorbidNature said:

The 3600 is surprisingly cheaper than the 3200 (in my region via Newegg), thing is it has slightly worse timing

3600 my dude.  Take a lil time and watch this.  TLDR is running FCLK as high as possible in 1:1 is most important thing, only exception is with 2133mhz cheapo kits. 
 

Overclocking is cool, and if you use the Ryzen DRAM Caclulator and have a kit that is properly supported sometimes you can get a perfectly stable overclock, but manual overclocking is worse then watching paint dry, it is THEY MOST mind numbing, boring, thing in the world.  With any decent 3600 kit you'll be getting stable performance that gets your Zen 2 system running about as well as it ever could, while perfectly stable.  During tests by Hardware unboxed the 3600(also 3500 ofc, if you like aliexpress zen2 processors), 3700x, and 3800x with 1 CCD don't get much from overclocking the FCLK at 1866-1900, running 3733-3800 speed ram to match, so really i wouldn't worry about it, the benefits are mainly for 3900x and 3950x with 2 CCD.

Likewise Ryzen 4000 is strongly, very strongly, rumored to focus on reducing these latency issues between the IO die/Memory controller and CCDs, its likely where they will get the biggest ICP gains, so learning all this overclocking may not even be for anything once its out.


Beyond that, like as is described in the video, even if you can pass a 12 hour test you may still run into issues when the CPU and RAM is actually under proper load, imo its just not worth it if you can find a working 3600 kit, stability is too much more valuable. 

Tip: If you did use Ryzen Dram Calculator, a step a lot of people miss is this, usually it won't load XMP correctly otherwise and it just won't work, but overall overclocking isn't needed on single CCD (3500-3800x) Ryzen CPUs, so imo don't bother... still i'll leave this incase you are feeling frisky 


so save this image if need be because its the step everybody misses (its a comment from Hardware Unboxed related video "How to Manually Tune Your DDR4 Memory For Ryzen")

[pas008]

19 hours ago, Squirrel724 said:

Built into the processor. The Intel Arc / AMD product page for your processor will tell you the fastest speed your processor is officially designed to meet. 

Exactly

Processor

 

Ram is still running at its manufacturers specs though how is running it at those specs overclocking the ram?