No breaks on the hypetrain

[PriitM]

If someone were to come to you and ask "what headphones are the best for a new audiophile?", you would probably say: Sennheiser. More specifically, the HD 6 series. 

 

If someone would ask if Sennheiser HD 660 is good, you would not have to think at all to answer "Yes"

 

Why is it so easy to recommend a single line of audiophile headphones from a single manufacturer. Are we just well conditioned monkeys or is there more to it? 

 

When I got to listen the HD650s for the first time about 10 years ago, I really did hear what people were talking about. High precision, fast response. Very clear reproduction in the mid-high range. Isnt that what hi-fi and audiophile is all about? 

Yes and no. humans can hear 20-20 000 Hz (on average), so filling in the whole range is tricky with fixed resources. Those resources being diaphragm area and excursion. There are unavoidable trade-offs. Where are the short-comings of the HD 6xx series? 

 

The bass. Not to say its not there, but to get high precision in high ranges, one must move the diaphragm very fast and small excursion. The exact opposite it takes to create large wave low frequencies. To remedy this, Sennheiser engineers opted for high impedance. Which brings us to the next "negative". And for high-impedance headsets in general. 

 

The amp. High impedance allows a much wider range of amplification. You can keep the much more of the mid-high range precision while also creating low frequency waves. Sounds perfect, right? You get the cake and eat it too. Not so fast, bucka-roo. As stated before, its a whole series of compromises. And the biggest compromise with an amp is the added "amp noise". Most audiophiles go for a tube amp, since it has a different amplification curve to a solid state and thus a different "amp sound". But any added sound in the chain is still...noise or distortion. Also more points of failure. 

 

Anywhooo....we should probably talk about the other things that make headsets good or bad: construction and comfort. In this regard, Sennheiser is on par with everyone else for the price you pay. Precision molded parts, nice fit and finish. Cushions are decent, being velour covered foam. Overall pressure from the headband is progressive (meaning it will get loose over time as the material stretches). Having the pleasure of testing Massdrop versions of HD6xx, you can see (and feel) where the cost effective approach happened. Massdrop versions will stretch out faster and foams will potentially sink sooner. Its possible that the whole construction will get loose and "creak" more. Cannot comment on the oval shape, since its a matter of preference. Will it work for me? No since im spoiled with round foams. Will it work for you? Most likely.

 

So. Sennheiser HD650. High-end headphones with compromises that require additional gear that adds more noise. Why should it be recommended so easily? 

 

Sennheiser has created a true versatile platform. The right price point, right approaches. Right kind of reputation. Easy to hear difference over the competition. An introduction (not indoctrination...that comes later) to the hi-fi world with its many many options. It allows people to experiment with different combinations while exposing differences very well. That is the unique experience with Sennheiser and its "un-compromising" ways. 

 

You dont keep the hypetrain lubed with snakeoil. Its lubed with thick grease of "You should get them" instead 

[Hugh54321]

I only read this advert for Sennheiser coz I thought the title said hyper train.

[PriitM]

1 minute ago, Hugh54321 said:

I only read this advert for Sennheiser coz I thought the title said hyper train.

Sorry to say: this is not an advert. I pointed out the short-comings of the whole platform, ended with a strong sentiment towards why it deserves the "hype". I personally would not get them, since I dont like the oval cups and the need for an amp, nor the "notch" in the headband cushion. But not saying it wont work. It does and respectably well. 

[Spuriae]

Why is the fact that many tube amps only work with high impedance headphones considered a downside of high impedance headphones?

 

High impedance headphones tend to have lower noise than their low impedance counterparts, when using the same amplifier: lower impedance requires higher current, which creates increased shot noise. At the same time, thermal and flicker noise tends to stay constant, which means the higher signal voltage level for high impedance headphones leads to an increase in voltage-based SNR.

[Derkoli]

10 hours ago, PriitM said:

humans can hear 20-20 000 Hz (on average

Well, under certain conditions its 12hz - 28khz, and personally i can hear down to 16-17hz with my setup.

[kokakolia]

I feel like it’s marketing genius. These high impedance headphones produce a problem (amplification) which requires a costly solution with potentially high margins. 
 

I think that would explain why I’m so turned off by hi-fi. Every speaker or headphone requires a multitude of costly products like amplifiers, DACs, cables etc... It just adds up so fast. I think that the mainstream doesn’t care about sound quality that much to go through all of these costly compromises. 

[PriitM]

11 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

Why is the fact that many tube amps only work with high impedance headphones considered a downside of high impedance headphones?

 

High impedance headphones tend to have lower noise than their low impedance counterparts, when using the same amplifier: lower impedance requires higher current, which creates increased shot noise. At the same time, thermal and flicker noise tends to stay constant, which means the higher signal voltage level for high impedance headphones leads to an increase in voltage-based SNR.

I only expressed concern for extra components on the line. More points of failure and potential noise/distortion. Im not saying it does not work. Not saying amps cant be of high quality. 

[rice guru]

I dont know I'm not the biggest fan of the headphone I think it sounds fine but it lacks bass as you mentioned. The imaging isn't great and the soundstage is also rather intimate. I would rather buy the baby 660 for less money the 58x which I did after giving all 4 headphones a listen. But if I want something that does the 650's job I would much rather grab the 880 600 ohm a little harder to drive but tubes super well and isn't lacking anything I would want in a headphone

[rice guru]

10 hours ago, kokakolia said:

I feel like it’s marketing genius. These high impedance headphones produce a problem (amplification) which requires a costly solution with potentially high margins. 
 

I think that would explain why I’m so turned off by hi-fi. Every speaker or headphone requires a multitude of costly products like amplifiers, DACs, cables etc... It just adds up so fast. I think that the mainstream doesn’t care about sound quality that much to go through all of these costly compromises. 

True but a lot of hifi gear is going towards easy to drive low impedance headphones , new cheaper Beyer product like the COPP's , new Senn products like the 58x, the 660, even focal headphones can be run off your phone. But isn't that all the same thing with PC's? You buy a more expensive monitor you need a more expensive GPU to run the graphics, but you need a more expensive cpu to not bottle neck it, you need more ram as well, and a better motherboard, all that shit also adds up. The nice thing with audio I find as I basically started becoming a collector after dropping basically $200 on the source gear I have no desire to upgrade as it sounds great no matter what headphone I cguck at it it seems to power everything well except for that one time I tried a sextett on it but you need a literal speaker amp to power the beast. Whereas with my PC I'm never satisfied im going to be upgrading my cpu, as well as a monitor and since ram is getting cheap probably getting faster ram, and when the b550 boards come out probably getting one too

[kokakolia]

3 minutes ago, rice guru said:

True but a lot of hifi gear is going towards easy to drive low impedance headphones , new cheaper Beyer product like the COPP's , new Senn products like the 58x, the 660, even focal headphones can be run off your phone. But isn't that all the same thing with PC's? You buy a more expensive monitor you need a more expensive GPU to run the graphics, but you need a more expensive cpu to not bottle neck it, you need more ram as well, and a better motherboard, all that shit also adds up. The nice thing with audio I find as I basically started becoming a collector after dropping basically $200 on the source gear I have no desire to upgrade as it sounds great no matter what headphone I cguck at it it seems to power everything well except for that one time I tried a sextett on it but you need a literal speaker amp to power the beast. Whereas with my PC I'm never satisfied im going to be upgrading my cpu, as well as a monitor and since ram is getting cheap probably getting faster ram, and when the b550 boards come out probably getting one too

Well, audio is getting cheaper and more convenient these days. So yeah, you can spend $200 on the source gear and plug headphones in. 20 years ago that would have been inconceivable. And yet, speaker systems and home cinemas are a total Frankenstein mess with way too many components and wires going everywhere. I guess that's why sound bars are so popular. You just need to plug them into the wall and into the TV. And everything you need is in the box...

[rice guru]

16 minutes ago, kokakolia said:

Well, audio is getting cheaper and more convenient these days. So yeah, you can spend $200 on the source gear and plug headphones in. 20 years ago that would have been inconceivable. And yet, speaker systems and home cinemas are a total Frankenstein mess with way too many components and wires going everywhere. I guess that's why sound bars are so popular. You just need to plug them into the wall and into the TV. And everything you need is in the box...

Yep can't wait to see developments 5 years from now. The iem space is falling apart right now cause of the Chinese like basically no need to go over $200 these days.good Planars are getting cheaper. DACs and amps are slowly getting better and cheaper. It's down to what consumers demand. But I will occasionally see pretentious posts like yesterday for example saw an older guy post " is it even possible to buy a decent dac for under $500" and man some audiophiles really aren't paying attention to the entry level market and how some $100 DACs can compete up to $500-$1000 DACs that came out maybe a year before them

[rice guru]

But yeah I refuse to get into home cinemas I bought a speaker amp and a pair of decent cheap speakers and leaving them on my desk and that's that for me for speakers 

[Spuriae]

12 hours ago, PriitM said:

I only expressed concern for extra components on the line. More points of failure and potential noise/distortion. Im not saying it does not work. Not saying amps cant be of high quality. 

 

20 hours ago, kokakolia said:

I feel like it’s marketing genius. These high impedance headphones produce a problem (amplification) which requires a costly solution with potentially high margins.

 

9 hours ago, rice guru said:

True but a lot of hifi gear is going towards easy to drive low impedance headphones , new cheaper Beyer product like the COPP's , new Senn products like the 58x, the 660, even focal headphones can be run off your phone.

The "higher impedance headphones require special expensive amplifiers" thing isn't really true. Most audio SoC's will output comparable power into 300Ω and 32Ω. The exceptions are class D/G/H amps, which still aren't terribly common for headphone use yet.

 

Both tube and solid state amplifiers in almost every topology work better with high impedance headphones than low impedance ones, up to voltage clipping.

 

Any given amplifier will perform better (lower noise and distortion) into a high impedance load than a low impedance one, up to the maximum voltage output. This is true for both solid state and tube amplifiers. A solid state amplifier will perform better in a high impedance headphone than a low impedance headphone. The only downside is that if the two headphones have equivalent sensitivities, the amplifier may get the low impedance ones louder, provided that the output stage is sufficient.