[EOL] PSU Tier List rev. 14.8

[Jurrunio]

2 minutes ago, LukeSavenije said:

it looks very similar to a focus gold to me...

yeah just wanna make sure. I've seen a 2017 review that claims the NeoECO Gold to use Seasonic's new 80+ Gold platform, and only the Focus Gold matches this description. I assume it shares the same bucket of problems then?

[LukeSavenije]

Just now, Jurrunio said:

yeah just wanna make sure. I've seen a 2017 review that claims the NeoECO Gold to use Seasonic's new 80+ Gold platform, and only the Focus Gold match this description. I assume it shares the same bucket of problems then?

as i don't see any differences like i've seen on the nzxt e, i assume so

[Jurrunio]

1 minute ago, LukeSavenije said:

on the nzxt e

wait that's... another focus gold? I hope not

[LukeSavenije]

Just now, Jurrunio said:

wait that's... another focus gold? I hope not

well, kinda

 

it's a focus gold with a dedicated ocp rail for current monitoring (the digital part they advertize, it's simple monitoring) and an actual 50c rating, unlike the focus

 

because of that ocp rail it didn't have the problems focus had with some GPUs, they didn't have to up the ocp, so no ripple issues noted either

 

it's kind of what the focus should've been

[Jurrunio]

1 minute ago, LukeSavenije said:

well, kinda

 

it's a focus gold with a dedicated ocp rail for current monitoring (the digital part they advertize, it's simple monitoring) and an actual 50c rating, unlike the focus

 

because of that ocp rail it didn't have the problems focus had with some GPUs, they didn't have to up the ocp, so no ripple issues noted either

 

it's kind of what the focus should've been

So it's a custom design fixing a reference design? Sounds very much like graphics cards

[LukeSavenije]

5 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

So it's a custom design fixing a reference design?

pretty much

 

they did need that ocp rail for current monitoring, so I'm not sure if it's intentional or not

[Jurrunio]

22 minutes ago, LukeSavenije said:

pretty much

 

they did need that ocp rail for current monitoring, so I'm not sure if it's intentional or not

let me see...

E500 $125

E650 $140

E850 $160

 

Sadly only the E850 is recommendable, to a really small bunch of people

[LukeSavenije]

2 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

Sadly only the E850 is recommendable, to a really small bunch of people

well... it is unfortunately a single rail

 

it's still a seasonic, you know

[Jurrunio]

13 minutes ago, LukeSavenije said:

well... it is unfortunately a single rail

 

it's still a seasonic, you know

for powering a single 500w GPU then

[PianoPlayer88Key]

On 10/23/2019 at 10:15 AM, LukeSavenije said:

PSU Tier List 4.0 rev. 1.03

Welcome to the brand new PSU Tier List! Created and maintained by @Princess Luna, @DatTestBench, @Stefan Payne, @GreatMasterAden, @PSUGuru and @LukeSavenije

 

 

Tier C - Recommended for entry level desktops, low profile HTPCs, Office desktops, preferably GPUs with no external PCI-e power connection.

Tier C is required to have OPP, SCP, ICP, UVP, OVP and meet c6/c7 sleep states.

 

 

(Not in the tier list, but Tier C- - for systems with an APU, or no dedicated GPU?)

 

Tier D - Not recommended

Tier D is everything that falls short of the other tier's requirements, but can only have a potential to be dangerous in certain situations.

 

 

 

So.... Would Tier C or maybe D be okay for a system that is heavily weighted toward hard drives (and has maybe no discrete GPU and a low-power CPU)?  Or could a Tier A+ or A unit work, even though they seem to be more geared toward GPU-heavy and not storage-heavy systems?

 

For example, one build idea I have in mind could have something like...

• NO dedicated GPU at all (or at most a GT 710 - I think of ones like GTX 1650 Ti or RX 560 being what's referenced in Tier C; I'd guess Tier C- (or D?) would be where the APU systems would be?)
• One or Two CPUs that are low TDP and/or underclocked (so they can run fanless) - for example an i3-6100 (that I already have) underclocked to maybe 0.8 GHz on 1 core with HT turned off, or 2x E5-2630L / L5630 / L5410 also underclocked & undervolted
• underclocked / timing-loosened RAM - for example DDR4-2133 CL22 or DDR3-1066 CL13 or DDR2-400 CL7

 

Then add a few LSI 9211-8i or 9200-16e cards as needed for the few hard drives I have ....

 

Basically if I could get the power consumption of everything combined that's not a hard drive / SSD down under like 30 to 40 watts or so, then use the rest for storage devices in the spoiler....

 

Spoiler

Spoiler's TL;DR:  There are at least 11x 3.5" PATA HDDs, 18x 3.5" SATA HDDs, 4x 2.5" SATA HDDs, 6x SATA 2.5" SSDs, and 2x M.2 SSDs (1 SATA, 1 NVMe) - at least 41 storage drives.

 

Also this does not count any additional storage drives I might also acquire, nor does it count my SD or CF cards, or my family's combined hundreds (or few thousand) of 8mm & VHS videotapes, audio cassettes, vinyl records, reel-to-reel tapes, etc.

 

 

• 1x | PATA | 3.5" | 8.4 GB | IBM | Deskstar 14GXP | DTTA-350840 ║ (have 2, but 1 is dead)
• 2x | PATA | 3.5" | 20.4 GB | Maxtor | DiamondMax VL 40 | 32049H2
• 2x | PATA | 3.5" | 40 GB | IBM | Deskstar 120GXP | IC35L040AVVN07-0
• 2x | PATA | 3.5" | 40 GB | Maxtor | DiamondMax Plus 8 | 6E040L0711014 ║(also have 1x 6E040L07110P3; one of the drives may be dying, I forget which)
• 1x | PATA | 3.5" | HDD | 80 GB | WDC | Caviar | WD800BB-32CAA0 ║ system detects as WD800JB-00CAA1
• 1x | PATA | 3.5" | HDD | 250 GB | WDC | Caviar | WD2500JB-53EVA0 ║ "recertified"

 

• 1x | SATA | 3.5" | HDD | 750 GB | WDC | Caviar SE16 | WD7500AAKS-00RBA0
• 1x | SATA | 3.5" | HDD | 750GB | WDC | Caviar Black | WD7501AALS-00J7B0
• 1x | SATA | 3.5" | HDD | 1 TB | WDC | Caviar Green | WD10EADS-00L5B1
• 2x | SATA | 3.5" | HDD | 1.5 TB | WDC | Caviar Green | WD15EADS-00P8B0
• 1x | SATA | 3.5" | HDD | 2 TB | WDC | Caviar Green | WD20EADS-00S2B0 ║ "recertified"
• 1x | SATA | 3.5" | HDD | 2 TB | WDC | Green Desktop | WD20EZRX-00D8PB0

 

• 3x | SATA | 3.5" | HDD | 4 TB | HGST | Deskstar NAS | 0F22408MPK5E00P4B ║ HDN724040ALE640
• 3x | SATA | 3.5" | HDD | 5 TB | HGST | Deskstar NAS | 0F23073APK5170P56 ║ HDN726050ALE610
• 3x | SATA | 3.5" | HDD | 8 TB | HGST | Deskstar NAS | 0F29801AR891X0P71 ║ HDN728080ALE604
• 2x | SATA | 3.5" | HDD | 10 TB | HGST | Deskstar NAS | 0F27620LHA83X0P7A ║ HDN721010ALE604

 

• 1x | SATA | 2.5" | HDD | 1 TB | Toshiba | ..... | MQ01ABD100
• 2x | SATA | 2.5" | HDD | 1 TB | HGST | Travelstar 5K1000 | 0J22413DA52180P44 ║ HTS541010A9E680
• 1x | SATA | 2.5" | HDD | 2 TB | Seagate / Samsung | Spinpoint M9T | ST2000LM003 ║ HN-M201RAD-EX2

 

• 2x | SATA | 2.5" | SSD | 256 GB | Transcend | ..... | TS256GSSD25S-M ║ These are flaky at best - might be detected on bootup but get dropped after a minute or few
• 1x | SATA | 2.5" | SSD | 256 GB | Crucial | M550 | CT256M550SSD1
• 2x | SATA | 2.5" | SSD | 1050 GB | Crucial | MX300 | CT1050MX300SSD1
• 1x | SATA | 2.5" | SSD | 240 GB | Crucial | BX300 | CT240BX300SSD1

 

• 1x | SATA | M.2-2260 | SSD | 250 GB | Crucial | MX200 | CT250MX200SSD6
• 1x | NVMe | M.2-2280 | SSD | 1 TB | Samsung | 970 EVO | MZ-V7E1T0BW

 

 

From what I've observed, the higher tier PSUs are usually able to output pretty much almost all their power on the 12V rail, for powering high-end / lots-of / overclocked CPUs & GPUs.

Basically what I'm hoping to find is something that will power a similar percentage of its total output, in hard drives, AND has the connectors to do it.  The Corsair HX750 Platinum doesn't have nearly enough SATA / PATA connectors, for example.  In case you didn't look in the spoiler above, I have 11 PATA HDDs, 28 SATA 2.5"/3.5" HDDs/SSDs plus 2 M.2 SSDs, and more drives could be acquired later.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do some hard drives maybe use the 5V rail, not just 12V?

 

Then there's other issues, like

Spoiler

 

• finding a sub-$100 case that would hold all those drives and an SSI EEB or quad-socket board if I get one (if I was only going with ATX and 10 drives, there's some ~$35-45 cases I was looking at, or I do have an empty Rosewill Thor V2.  I do NOT want a rackmount case - don't have any place to put one),
• depending on what board I get, figuring out how to go from VGA out from the on-board video (or no video out at all), to HDMI or DisplayPort in on the display, WITHOUT installing a video card (for example if all PCIe slots are occupied by other devices) or getting another monitor, not even for first bootup / BIOS setup,
• ** This one is VERY important to me, not meeting this would be a dealbreaker; primary reason it's not taken out of the spoiler is cause this post is primarily for asking about PSUs (although I figured I should at least mention my use case) -- getting my backup media to be the same cost or less per TB relative to my hard drives, as tape was vs hard drives in January 1994.  For example, $215 got you a 250 MB PATA HDD then (and can get a midrange 8 TB HDD now).  Also $20 got you a 250 MB tape media then and $145 got a 250 MB tape drive, or $59 got a 2 GB tape media then (I can't find 64TB storage media for $59 now) and $925 got a 2.3 GB tape drive.  (A 2.1 GB SCSI HDD was $1850),
• among other things.

 

It may sound like I almost described a NAS, right?  Well actually, I've been thinking... for data security, might it be possible to build a system that would have not even the slightest clue what an IP address is, nevermind what to do with one?  (Even if I was to add a network card and do a BIOS update ; the hardware would be incapable of dealing with IP addresses, so it'd be hopefully more resistant to being hacked.)

I'm thinking interfacing with my main system(s) would either be via SAS, SATA, PCI Express, Thunderbolt or USB, but not via LAN / RJ45.

 

Basically I'm needing to do a full backup of all my stuff, and trying to do it relatively inexpensively, among other issues that would probably be better posted in a different section of the forum sometime.

 

 

Idk when / if I'd be putting together a system like this yet.  I may yet try to find another way to back up my 90+ TB of drives, but I'm pretty sure it won't be cloud backup.  (I have a 1 TB / month data cap and about 10 Mbps upload.)  (Also I don't think a raspberry 3.1415926535897932 would cut it either.)

 

Figured I may as well ask here about a PSU for that use case, or should I have made it its own thread?  (As I said earlier, there's also other related things I want to find out, but figure I should probably split those into their own threads when / if I eventually post them.)

 

I don't need quite that many SATA connectors yet, but what PSU does Petabyte Project use (or 45Drives / BackBlaze (per storage pod) / etc, or other servers but not counting huge datacenters like Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc), and where does it appear on the tier list?

[LukeSavenije]

8 minutes ago, PianoPlayer88Key said:

So.... Would Tier C or maybe D be okay for a system that is heavily weighted toward hard drives

C would be fine-ish, D wouldn't because of mostly protection reasons. the crossload issues are less here, as you load the 5v more than average and the 12v less than average 

 

but i haven't read up deeply into NAS systems, but i recall someone telling me if a HDD doesn't have a certain spinup feature, it can trigger OCP in many PSUs by all spinning up at the same time.

 

you could get extra type 3/4 cables for the HX750, they're not that hard to find

11 minutes ago, PianoPlayer88Key said:

I don't need quite that many SATA connectors yet, but what PSU does Petabyte Project use (or 45Drives / BackBlaze (per storage pod) / etc, or other servers but not counting huge datacenters like Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc), and where does it appear on the tier list?

these are normally server PSUs from the likes of Delta, Flextronics, Acbel, LiteOn and many more. these are barely comparable to consumer units, and if they are most will be around the tier S tier, but also have a pricetag to match that

[mariushm]

Wow long post.. i thought only i did that.. joking.

 

 A tier c would work, but it may make more sense to go with a Tier B or A power supply.

 

When it comes to lots of hard drives, the limitation is the current capability on 5v. 12v is less important.

Mechanical drives consume around 0.75A on 5v, with a peak of around 1A when they start up. From the 12v rail, mechanical drives will average around 0.5A - 0.75A (~6-8w) but at start they may pull up to 2-3A for a second or so.

 

Modern power supplies will have dc-dc converters with limited output current on 3.3v and 5v ... usually up to 100..120w shared by both rails, and let's say something like 16..20A on 5v (80-90W)

For let's say 10-16 hard drives, 16-20A on 5v would be enough. For more than this, you need to resort to tricks like buying adapters with dc-dc converters on them which take a pci-e 6pin power connector and create 5v from 12v to power multiple sata power connector. Or, you use a 2nd ATX power supply, or a dedicated 5v only "industrial" power supply.

 

As for choosing components...

A modern video card idles at 3-6w when not used in games, and that's mostly from 12v. The pci-e slots are designed to deliver maximum 10w on 3.3v and most video cards barely use that, so your 3.3v + 5v budget is safe.

If you do need a video card, go for something like a GT210 or an AMD HD6350/HD5450, they're under 10$ on eBay, unless you want a video card with nVEnc or AMF to do video conversions or accelerate decoding (if you want to use the thing to stream videos in your house)

Anyway, there's little point stressing about video card power consumption.

 

Same for the memory. A memory stick consumes 2-3 watts ... and it's most often from 3.3v or 5v rail, motherboard has a dc-dc converter which produces 1.2v..1.35v

Lowering a stick to 2133 Mhz or lower will do practically nothing to save power. IF you combine that with lowering voltage to 1.1v or something like that (from 1.2v) you *may* lower power consumption by 0.25w or something like that.

 

As for the processors, most modern processors have power management and can auto configure themselves to reduce frequencies if they have no load or minimal load. See control panel, power options or whatever is called in Windows 10... you have there power plans, high performance, balanced, power saver etc... you can select balanced and then customize and from there you can tell the minimum frequency and maximum frequency cpu may use.

There's little point in forcing the cpu manually from BIOS and all that. Yeah, you can force it and reduce the voltages to the limit and you MAY get a few tenths of a watt less power used, but in the end the cpu is also powered from 12v rail, and you have plenty power there.

 

For passive cooling you have passive heatsinks like Alpine Passive : here's AM4 version and here's Intel version.

These are good for up to 47w TDP, and they'll probably work with 65w TDP cpus if you force the maximum frequencies lower or if you don't use integrated graphics, but honestly, you'd be better off using the stock coolers especially on AM4 .. the fan takes power from 12v, so those 2-3 watts the fan uses don't really matter.

 

-

Back to power supplies

 

I personally would custom make my SATA power connectors, using 12v from the power supply, or using an existing 5v only power supply. 

You can buy pre-made SATA power cables from various stores, here's some examples :

0887511410 Molex | Cable Assemblies | DigiKey

0685610020 Molex | Cable Assemblies | DigiKey

 

or you can buy mass produced SATA-MOLEX adapter cables and simply cut the molex end :

 

0887511311 Molex | Cable Assemblies | DigiKey

 

or you can buy the individual connectors and pins and a 10-20$ crimping tool and AWG18 cable and make your own :

Housing : 0675820000 Molex | Connectors, Interconnects | DigiKey

Contacts : 0675810000 Molex | Connectors, Interconnects | DigiKey

 or 0675810010 Molex | Connectors, Interconnects | DigiKey

 

For industrial power supplies, you can look at

DC-DC converters (50w and up) that you must put on a circuit board and may require a capacitor or two and maybe a couple resistors to configure the output voltage : https://www.digikey.com/short/pdrn74
or
AC-DC 5v power supplies (50w and up) : https://www.digikey.com/short/pdrn3r

 

Backblaze has another aproach, they use port multipliers to split 1 sata port to 5 sata ports.
They buy those mass produced port extenders which come in the shape of circuit boards with SATA power+data connectors on the circuit board, so the power gets routed on the circuit board. You simply stick the drive in the connector.

Their design is open source and you can get the BOM from their website:

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/open-source-data-storage-server/

Here's their parts list: https://f001.backblaze.com/file/Backblaze_Blog/Storage-Pod-6/Storage+Pod+6.0+Parts+List.pdf
 
They use 12 Sunrich Tech S-331 backplanes https://www.arrow.com/en/products/s-331/sunrich-technology-us-inc to connect 5 drives at a time to a SATA power connector.
I think the 12 backplanes have molex connectors, and they basically take the 5v wires from one of the 24 pin connectors and re-wire them to power the backplanes with 5v but I'm not sure - you have the wiring diagram and you can try to figure those out.

You can buy a non-modular power supply with 15A+ on 5v as it would probably be cheaper than a "5v only" psu, and open it up and solder your own sata connector strips into the circuit board.

 

So they pay something in the 35-45$ per backplane, and they make their own custom 24pin -> multiple SATA connectors cable and they can shove 60 drives this way

Downside is they split 6gbps to 5 drives which for their needs doesn't matter, and they can get everything working with 8 sata ports from the board and an extra 4 port sata controller.

[LukeSavenije]

12 minutes ago, mariushm said:

 

@PianoPlayer88Key

[Juular]

@LukeSavenije Any word on yet another Seasonic Focus based design, Phanteks AMP ?

[LukeSavenije]

31 minutes ago, Juular said:

@LukeSavenije Any word on yet another Seasonic Focus based design, Phanteks AMP ?

a reviewer called it "modified"

 

I'm yet to see where

[TrainFan475]

So you have to spend $200+ for a psu otherwise it'll explode in a high end system?

[MEC-777]

4 minutes ago, TrainFan2019 said:

So you have to spend $200+ for a psu otherwise it'll explode in a high end system?

Not at all. Where'd you get that idea from?

[Juular]

1 hour ago, TrainFan2019 said:

So you have to spend $200+ for a psu otherwise it'll explode in a high end system?

Depends on your definition of high end system. If it's 32-core HEDT CPU with 4x RTX2080 Ti's under constant 100% load then yes. Otherwise, for your average gaming PC, anything up from tier B 500W+ will be alright, or if you have power hungry GPU like AMD stuff or RTX2080 Ti maybe 600-650W and up from tier A. Anyway, at least in US you can get Corsair RM 650W just for 90$ now, it'll be good for any PC with single GPU.

[Juular]

@LukeSavenije There's SilenciumPC PSU manufacturer with strong presence in Eastern Europe, what you can say about them ? Their Bronze unit (Vero L2\M2) seems to be based on some SAMA platform, i don't see them tiered here, and their Gold (Supremo L2\M2\FM2) units by the looks of PCB and general design seem to use same OEM too so it's probably the same tier as their (SAMA's) Gold rated units ?

[LogicWeasel]

41 minutes ago, Juular said:

Anyway, at least in US you can get Corsair RM 650W just for 90$ now

You're thinking of the TXM Gold or RMx 2018 for a sub-$100 unit: https://pcpartpicker.com/product/PVzZxr/corsair-txm-gold-650w-80-gold-certified-semi-modular-atx-power-supply-cp-9020132-na

The RM 650W is actually $110 and not as good a deal as the RMx right now:  https://pcpartpicker.com/product/WxL48d/corsair-rm-2019-650-w-80-gold-certified-fully-modular-atx-power-supply-cp-9020194-na
 

But even still, I'd argue that for the average gaming rig, easily the darn best bang/buck is the TXM Gold Semi-modular 550W for $70 (counting the Mail-in Rebate): https://pcpartpicker.com/product/dDH48d/corsair-txm-gold-550w-80-gold-certified-semi-modular-atx-power-supply-cp-9020133-na

[Juular]

10 minutes ago, LogicWeasel said:

You're thinking of the TXM Gold or RMx 2018 for a sub-$100 unit: https://pcpartpicker.com/product/PVzZxr/corsair-txm-gold-650w-80-gold-certified-semi-modular-atx-power-supply-cp-9020132-na

The RM 650W is actually $110 and not as good a deal as the RMx right now:  https://pcpartpicker.com/product/WxL48d/corsair-rm-2019-650-w-80-gold-certified-fully-modular-atx-power-supply-cp-9020194-na
 

But even still, I'd argue that for the average gaming rig, easily the darn best bang/buck is the TXM Gold Semi-modular 550W for $70 (counting the Mail-in Rebate): https://pcpartpicker.com/product/dDH48d/corsair-txm-gold-550w-80-gold-certified-semi-modular-atx-power-supply-cp-9020133-na

Uh, yeah, RM was at the same 90$ just recently, anyway TXm is very solid option for cheaper, the difference with RM\RMx will be basically just in noise output.

[TylorLMS]

Im surprised the EVGA Supernova isn't on this list. I thought it was one of the more popular high end psu's

[seon123]

5 minutes ago, TylorLMS said:

Im surprised the EVGA Supernova isn't on this list. I thought it was one of the more popular high end psu's

The EVGA Supernova isn't a single PSU, it's a series of PSUs. They range from garbage to very good. 

[LogicWeasel]

On 10/23/2019 at 12:15 PM, LukeSavenije said:

EVGA G(1)+, GS, GQ, GD 2017 (x50)

 

On 10/23/2019 at 12:15 PM, LukeSavenije said:

EVGA B2, G5 <1000w, GD 2019 (x00)

It took me a hot second, but I assume when you post these (x50) and (x00) you are stating that only the units that end in 50 or 100 watts (like a 550 vs a 600 W unit?)  So does that mean there's a whole different ranking for GD 2019 (x50) ?  It just seems a bit confusing, and if it's confusing for me (someone who follows this tier list and occasionally reads PSU reviews) than I reckon it's not something one could expect all readers of the thread to pick up on (random audience as someone buying a PSU looking for quick advice).

[LukeSavenije]

1 minute ago, LogicWeasel said:

you are stating that only the units that end in 50 or 100 watts

correct

 

it's the most clear thing i can notice between the GD 2017 and 2019

 

GD 2017 is a downgraded GQ

 

GD 2019 looks close to a hydro GE