Brass radiator, okay??? Galvanic corrosion??

[Cypresser]

So, I am planning my next build. I found a radiator I like, but it is brass on the inside. I plan to use the gigabyte Z390 AORUS XTREME WATERFORCE 5G motherboard, lots of reasons. As far as I am aware the is nickle copper water block.

 

I need to know, for sure, if the radiator I am looking at (that the inner tubes are brass) is NOT going to cause galvanic corrosion to this system.

 

Also looking for a recommendation of biocide and how much/liter (or quart) I need to use.

 

Lastly, D5 pump and res. I am looking for a recommendation.

 

Thank your in advance for the help.

[Streetguru]

2 minutes ago, Cypresser said:

 

Just keep it all the same metal

But I mean it's just a radiator? Isn't it going to look like all of the other ones on the outside?

[Cypresser]

Just now, Streetguru said:

Just keep it all the same metal

But I mean it's just a radiator? Isn't it going to look like all of the other ones on the outside?

Yeah, no, I have a very very large radiator I will be using,

[Cypresser]

http://www.usradiator.com/cores

[Streetguru]

6 minutes ago, Cypresser said:

http://www.usradiator.com/cores

Why...

There are more made for PC cooling massive radiators, either 4x4 120mm

 

or this one is 2x1 200mm
https://modmymods.com/phobya-xtreme-400-radiator-85mm-ver-2-35495.html

Here's the one I was thinking of.
https://www.watercoolinguk.co.uk/p/Watercool-MO-RA3-radiator-420-Pro-Stainless-Steel-Edition_62329.html

[WWicket]

Cupronickel and brass have similar anodic indices. Should be fine, especially if you use a galvanic corrosion inhibitor. 

[Cypresser]

16 minutes ago, Streetguru said:

Why...

There are more made for PC cooling massive radiators, either 4x4 120mm

 

or this one is 2x1 200mm
https://modmymods.com/phobya-xtreme-400-radiator-85mm-ver-2-35495.html

Here's the one I was thinking of.
https://www.watercoolinguk.co.uk/p/Watercool-MO-RA3-radiator-420-Pro-Stainless-Steel-Edition_62329.html

Because the reasons that I have. This is the exotic cooling section, so.

[Cypresser]

11 minutes ago, WWicket said:

Cupronickel and brass have similar anodic indices. Should be fine, especially if you use a galvanic corrosion inhibitor. 

Thank you, do you have a recommendation on a gci to use? I was thinking about just contacting ek for their premix. Last time i checked they have a premix with distilled water with gci and biocide as well.

[Tristerin]

I have a couple mixed metal loops and am building a third - I have yet to do it with brass involved but in this situation it doesn't matter.  I use Prestone 50/50 premix antifreeze with Cor-Guard (their proprietary corrosive inhibitor plus nothing can live in antifreeze so its a natural biocide for 1/8th the cost of namebrand fluids)

 

Make sure your fittings are either brass on brass, or chrome fitted.  The real issue is the mixed metals physically touching, your inhibitor wont help that stop corrosion.  So ensure your fittings are either brass on brass or chrome on brass.  You can use aluminum, brass, and copper no problem just not touching as long as you use the inhibitors.

[Tristerin]

btw majority of AIO's on the market are mixed metals and EK even sells mixed metal loops so no worries in mixing them if you use #science.

[Streetguru]

6 minutes ago, Cypresser said:

Because the reasons that I have. This is the exotic cooling section, so.

GN did a live stream with a radiator like that here in any event.

It's just a bit impractical to use, could just use 2 360mm AIOs instead in an XL case?
 

 

[Cypresser]

57 minutes ago, Streetguru said:

GN did a live stream with a radiator like that here in any event.

It's just a bit impractical to use, could just use 2 360mm AIOs instead in an XL case?
 

 

I watch all the major folks. Seen this, I plan a wall pc, plus more.

[Cypresser]

1 hour ago, Tristerin said:

I have a couple mixed metal loops and am building a third - I have yet to do it with brass involved but in this situation it doesn't matter.  I use Prestone 50/50 premix antifreeze with Cor-Guard (their proprietary corrosive inhibitor plus nothing can live in antifreeze so its a natural biocide for 1/8th the cost of namebrand fluids)

 

Make sure your fittings are either brass on brass, or chrome fitted.  The real issue is the mixed metals physically touching, your inhibitor wont help that stop corrosion.  So ensure your fittings are either brass on brass or chrome on brass.  You can use aluminum, brass, and copper no problem just not touching as long as you use the inhibitors.

I've considered this exact thing, I didn't know if there would be an issue. Thank you!

 

[Streetguru]

31 minutes ago, Cypresser said:

I watch all the major folks. Seen this, I plan a wall pc, plus more.

So a Thermaltake P5?

https://www.newegg.com/black-thermaltake-core-p5-atx-open-frame-chassis/p/N82E16811133283?item=N82E16811133283&source=region&nm_mc=knc-googleadwords-pc&cm_mmc=knc-googleadwords-pc-_-pla-_-cases+(computer+cases+-+atx+form)-_-N82E16811133283&gclid=CjwKCAjw2qHsBRAGEiwAMbPoDBFSYBLu4Y5jKuLr6S8iQhFZRnHV7REfLYnvPZhlkdyiq4c0j3r7pBoCMZkQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[WWicket]

1 hour ago, Cypresser said:

Thank you, do you have a recommendation on a gci to use? I was thinking about just contacting ek for their premix. Last time i checked they have a premix with distilled water with gci and biocide as well.

No idea. EKs fluids have a good reputation for the most part. (Note: don't use deionized water unless the fluid manufacture specifically recommends it. Deionized water will corrode copper. I realize you said distilled and distilled is fine, but just an fyi).

1 hour ago, Tristerin said:

You can use aluminum, brass, and copper no problem just not touching as long as you use the inhibitors.

Wouldn't advise it...

 

 Aluminium and zinc can be used together. Copper, nickel and brass can be used together. Copper/nickel/brass should not be used with aluminium/zinc.

 

The larger the surface area of the more cathodic material, the faster the corrosion will occur, so a little bit of copper in an aluminium loop will corrode the aluminium slowly, but a little bit of aluminium in a mostly copper loop, and the aluminium piece will rapidly corrode (*without an effective GCI). I wouldn't trust the fluids that much, especially if you aren't good about flushing and replacing them. 

[Tristerin]

10 hours ago, WWicket said:

 (*without an effective GCI).

Did you know Prestone Antifreeze is a better documented fluid than any of the "loop fluid" on the market?  Did you know its ingredients are considered Top Tier 1 in liquid cooling? 

 

#science

 

Besides the fact that 99% of the AIO's on the market are mixed metals (aluminum rads, copper blocks), and vehicle engine cooling systems share the same...exact..."issue" of mixed metals?

 

So long as you have a proper corrosion inhibitor, nothing can bond to begin the process of corrosion.  Ill take my mixed metals loops and the metallurgists (who got me turned on to mixing metals) words from my work and how to handle this (my experience says...#science)

[SolarNova]

13 hours ago, Cypresser said:

So, I am planning my next build. I found a radiator I like, but it is brass on the inside. I plan to use the gigabyte Z390 AORUS XTREME WATERFORCE 5G motherboard, lots of reasons. As far as I am aware the is nickle copper water block.

 

I need to know, for sure, if the radiator I am looking at (that the inner tubes are brass) is NOT going to cause galvanic corrosion to this system.

 

Also looking for a recommendation of biocide and how much/liter (or quart) I need to use.

 

Lastly, D5 pump and res. I am looking for a recommendation.

 

Thank your in advance for the help.

Simple answer:

 

Brass is fine.

 

If you want to take extra precaution use something like Mayhems Inhibitor.

 

Mayhems have instructions on mix quantity, its usually a few drops per liter. Same with their biocide. Thats a general guide however, if u want to be absolutely sure get urself a digital PH tester and adjust the mix accordingly.

[WWicket]

2 hours ago, Tristerin said:

Did you know Prestone Antifreeze is a better documented fluid than any of the "loop fluid" on the market?  Did you know its ingredients are considered Top Tier 1 in liquid cooling? 

 

#science

 

Besides the fact that 99% of the AIO's on the market are mixed metals (aluminum rads, copper blocks), and vehicle engine cooling systems share the same...exact..."issue" of mixed metals?

 

So long as you have a proper corrosion inhibitor, nothing can bond to begin the process of corrosion.  Ill take my mixed metals loops and the metallurgists (who got me turned on to mixing metals) words from my work and how to handle this (my experience says...#science)

Haven't seen any studies on the efficacy of Prestone Antifreeze in water cooling loops vs other fluids. If you have, please do share. I don't doubt that the GCI's in antifreeze are effective and that it is much more stable/ longer lasting than many PC WCing fluids, but would be curious to see how it's thermal properties compare / what the best water mix percentage is for PC cooling. 

 

As I understand, modern vehicles are mixing iron, steel and aluminium primarily in their loop with only small areas of other metals.... This is like mixing copper and brass. They are electrochemically similar. 

 

The larger the difference in the anodic index, the more prone to galvanic corrosion.

 

Copper -.35

Brass -.40

Iron - .85

Aluminium - .9

 

Anodic difference in a copper/brass mixed system: .05V

Anodic difference in an iron/aluminium mixed system (eg, The large surface areas in a car's coolant system): .05V

Anodic difference in a copper/aluminium mixed system: .55V ................ 11x greater.

 

Again: 

13 hours ago, WWicket said:

The larger the surface area of the more cathodic material, the faster the corrosion will occur, so a little bit of copper in an aluminium loop will corrode the aluminium slowly, but a little bit of aluminium in a mostly copper loop, and the aluminium piece will rapidly corrode (*without an effective GCI).

AIO -> relatively large surface area of aluminium (the radiator)  and small area of copper (the cpu contact plate).

If these were swapped, (aluminium cpu block and copper radiator), galvanic corrosion would be a much bigger issue with AIOs. (And they typically use an antifreeze/water mix + additional corrosion inhibitors and still usually have some minor corrosion after a couple years.)

[Tristerin]

9 minutes ago, WWicket said:

Haven't seen any studies on the efficacy of Prestone Antifreeze in water cooling loops vs other fluids. If you have, please do share. I don't doubt that the GCI's in antifreeze are effective and that it is much more stable/ longer lasting than many PC WCing fluids, but would be curious to see how it's thermal properties compare / what the best water mix percentage is for PC cooling. 

 

As I understand, modern vehicles are mixing iron, steel and aluminium primarily in their loop with only small areas of other metals.... This is like mixing copper and brass. They are electrochemically similar. 

 

The larger the difference in the anodic index, the more prone to galvanic corrosion.

 

Copper -.35

Brass -.40

Iron - .85

Aluminium - .9

 

Anodic difference in a copper/brass mixed system: .05V

Anodic difference in an iron/aluminium mixed system (eg, The large surface areas in a car's coolant system): .05V

Anodic difference in a copper/aluminium mixed system: .55V ................ 11x greater.

 

Again: 

AIO -> relatively large surface area of aluminium (the radiator)  and small area of copper (the cpu contact plate).

If these were swapped, (aluminium cpu block and copper radiator), galvanic corrosion would be a much bigger issue with AIOs. (And they typically use an antifreeze/water mix + additional corrosion inhibitors and still usually have some minor corrosion after a couple years.)

1.) Just look up the ingredients.  You can, google.  There is a TON more documentation on antifreeze products than what you are putting in your loop.  The loop liquid makers don't want to give away "their secret ingredient lulz".

2.) The thermal properties are fine enough - because when building a custom loop its radiator space that's king in dissipating heat.

3.) Modern.  I don't see old vehicles springing leaks, nor is this an epidemic happened or happening in older cars. 

4.) Prone, perfect word, prone.  Can, but wont, if you properly mitigate.

 

I have a copper CPU block, aluminum GPU block, 2 aluminum radiator setup I am about to cut open (and planned doing this already) because people like to argue #science.  I have a brand new, same size aluminum radiator I am going to cut open side by side.  My money, and my equipment, is where my mouth is about science.  There will be nothing wrong with my mixed metals loop radiators running proper fluids.  Because #science doesn't care how any of us feel about something.

[WWicket]

11 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

I have a copper CPU block, aluminum GPU block, 2 aluminum radiator setup I am about to cut open (and planned doing this already) because people like to argue #science.  I have a brand new, same size aluminum radiator I am going to cut open side by side.  My money, and my equipment, is where my mouth is about science.  There will be nothing wrong with my mixed metals loop radiators running proper fluids.

Awesome. Look forward to the pictures. But once again, since this seems confusing for you.............. no one would expect much corrosion with that loop. If you had a copper cpu block, an aluminium gpu block, and 2 copper radiators, I'd expect corrosion of the aluminium gpu block.

 

Sorry you disapprove of #science ? Some people don't trust 'the thermal properties are fine just cause'. How would knowing the ingredients of one fluid and not the other, let you compare their real-world thermal performance???? And I only specified modern cars because I know next to nothing about antique cars. Given early cars used plain water for cooling, I'm going to guess corrosion was an issue. 

[Tristerin]

8 minutes ago, WWicket said:

Awesome. Look forward to the pictures. But once again, since this seems confusing for you.............. no one would expect much corrosion with that loop. If you had a copper cpu block, an aluminium gpu block, and 2 copper radiators, I'd expect corrosion of the aluminium gpu block.

 

Sorry you disapprove of #science ? Some people don't trust 'the thermal properties are fine just cause'. How would knowing the ingredients of one fluid and not the other, let you compare their real-world thermal performance???? And I only specified modern cars because I know next to nothing about antique cars. Given early cars used plain water for cooling, I'm going to guess corrosion was an issue. 

10-4 good buddy, don't care.

You have google, pretty sure Jayz already did all of this for you, and I if you care so much about the delta between fluids taking heat away from the block.  I don't care, because I am getting the results I need with my loops with the fluids I use.  

 

Im not like you - I have questions and then seek the answers by buying things and trying them out.  I have my answers on this, just not the same questions you have.

 

[For Science!]

37 minutes ago, WWicket said:

-

So....on one hand you are saying to stick to copper, nickel, brass (which I would generally agree with), but on the otherhand you are also saying that basically except for when you use a small aluminium block with copper/brass radiators + some more  (which I must say, almost never happens) corrosion is unlikely to take place, and so at the same time you have also outlined why it is totally okay to have an aluminium radiator with copper blocks .

 

But anyway as far as OP is concerned, you are not mixing any metals of concern anyway so just pick up any standard coolant (I recommend EKWB CryoFuel Non-Opaque) and you will be find.

 

Of course anti-freeze is effective for its protective and general heat transferring properties, the main issue is safely handling it (for example diethylene glycol) as well as appropriate disposal. Also it should be mentioned that although many companies are not open about their coolant ingredients, I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt that the ones that say they use anti-corrosives actually do. Having said that I am a heavy advocate of documenting correctly, but that's another discussion.

22 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

 

 

[WWicket]

50 minutes ago, For Science! said:

So....on one hand you are saying to stick to copper, nickel, brass (which I would generally agree with), but on the otherhand you are also saying that basically except for when you use a small aluminium block with copper/brass radiators + some more  (which I must say, almost never happens) corrosion is unlikely to take place, and so at the same time you have also outlined why it is totally okay to have an aluminium radiator with copper blocks .

That is just the way it is... it isn't a binary issue. Any time you have metals in an electrolytic solution with an electrode potential difference, you are going to have some degree of  galvanic corrosion. The amount of the corrosion, in the absence of other galvanic corrosion inhibitors / catalysts, can be predicted by the difference in anodic indices, the ratio of the surface area of the cathodic metal to the anodic metal, the flow rate of the electrolytic solution, and the exposure time. Catalysts will accelerate the corrosion, inhibitors will slow it. 

 

You want to minimize the rate of corrosion. Not mixing metals with a large electrode potential difference without reason (eg., copper and aluminium) is always the preferred practice. With most loops it probably won't be an issue, but advising people that it is okay to mix copper and aluminium as a blanket statement seems wrong.

[For Science!]

10 minutes ago, WWicket said:

-

I'm okay with this mentality, I would also recommend people to stick to their metals since there aren't really any advantages to mix (except perhaps for the abundance of cheap copper blocks, and aluminium radiators).

 

So in summary you're being a good parent telling the children to not cross the road when the light is red, although even if they did, the chances of getting hit by a truck are fairly slim.

[Cypresser]

6 hours ago, Tristerin said:

10-4 good buddy, don't care.

You have google, pretty sure Jayz already did all of this for you, and I if you care so much about the delta between fluids taking heat away from the block.  I don't care, because I am getting the results I need with my loops with the fluids I use.  

 

Im not like you - I have questions and then seek the answers by buying things and trying them out.  I have my answers on this, just not the same questions you have.

 

What do you think of water wetter? I've been auto racing for years guys at BIR swear by it.

 

Any specific coolant you use? Honda blue, Toyota pink, Ford orange, GM dexcool, VWAG gold, standard green (old school), etc?