Could power supplies be smaller? I'll do it.

[ShafterGT]

Is anyone else disappointed by the power supply options out there? they're all huge, they've mostly been the ATX standard since it was released in 1995. Sure, there is the SFX size, but there is not an insane amount of support for it. and the picoPSUs, which are often under powered and have an absolutely atrocious power brick, which defeats the point of a small form factor build. I figure the reason PSUs haven't gotten smaller is because there isn't enough push for it. The custom PC community is big, but not big enough to change anything. And small form factor prebuilts usually either have a power brick, or a model specific power supply. 

 

It cant be that difficult to make a power supply small. I bet i could fit a 650 watt unit in a 5 inch drive bay. I have a background in automation and understand the basics of how to manipulate my surroundings. A (very) little board repair. I feel like I'm reasonably capable. If anyone could point me in the direction of where i can find what the components in a PSU are and what they do that would be great. Ill probably just reverse engineer a normal one, screw around with the layout, use smaller components, etc. Its just power regulation.

 

I don't expect this to be a small task, but I'm bored anyway, so. I know I'll have to get creative with cooling and such. Have an electrician friend that may be able to tell me if I'm doing something stupid. Ill ask a professor or something before i plug it in. let me know if yore interested in helping. More information if you ask for it, don't really feel like typing out my entire train of thought.

 

[Streetguru]

5 minutes ago, ShafterGT said:

 

Just look at flex ATX PSUs and Server Power Supplies, maybe external too, but I don't know why you would need such a thing?
 

https://www.amazon.com/SilverStone-Technology-Supply-Connector-SST-FX350-G-USA/dp/B07QGMX5DW/ref=asc_df_B07QGMX5DW/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=380013417597&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8850764167024741316&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031291&hvtargid=pla-817080367406&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=77922879259&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=380013417597&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8850764167024741316&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031291&hvtargid=pla-817080367406


https://www.amazon.com/Supermicro-PWS-920P-1R-watt-Power-Module/dp/B004HIN9NQ/ref=asc_df_B004HIN9NQ/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=309708743736&hvpos=1o3&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12376223257103428644&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031291&hvtargid=pla-668779890879&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=60510342446&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=309708743736&hvpos=1o3&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12376223257103428644&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031291&hvtargid=pla-668779890879

[SupaKomputa]

Nobody bothers with smaller PSU, SFF systems existed more than a decade, but as you can see, peoples are still using the big old ATX.

PSU are big because they use huge capacitors (cheaper).

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, ShafterGT said:

 

It cant be that difficult to make a power supply small. I bet i could fit a 650 watt unit in a 5 inch drive bay.

 

Cool.  You think you're better than all the EE's out there already trying to drive greater power density?  Go for it. 

 

[Guest]

Just now, SupaKomputa said:

Nobody bothers with smaller PSU, SFF systems existed more than a decade, but as you can see, peoples are still using the big old ATX.

PSU are big because they use huge capacitors (cheaper).

Huge capacitors are cheaper?

[APasz]

Computer PSUs are in the same boat as combustion engines.

[SenKa]

1 minute ago, jonnyGURU said:

Cool.  You think you're better than all the EE's out there already trying to drive greater power density?  Go for it. 

 

Mans got spirit! I'm following this thread just to see where it goes.

[aisle9]

3 minutes ago, APasz said:

Computer PSUs are in the same boat as combustion engines.

A boat full of computer PSUs and combustion engines is not going to float for long.

[seon123]

8 minutes ago, SenKa said:

Mans got spirit! I'm following this thread just to see where it goes.

Probably not too far

20 minutes ago, ShafterGT said:

If anyone could point me in the direction of where i can find what the components in a PSU are and what they do that would be great.

 

[Windows7ge]

I think it's entirely doable to convert 115/225V AC to 3.3/5/12/-12/-5V DC using smaller components but the concern I see is the components ability to drive 10's of Amps for power hungry hardware without the PSU blowing due to insufficient choice of parts. Hence why PSUs are the size they are.

 

IMO FlexATX is pretty small. Similar in shape to 1U PSUs.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Windows7ge said:

I think it's entirely doable to convert 115/225V AC to 3.3/5/12/-12/-5V DC using smaller components but the concern I see is the components ability to drive 10's of Amps for power hungry hardware without the PSU blowing due to insufficient choice of parts. Hence why PSUs are the size they are.

 

IMO FlexATX is pretty small. Similar in shape to 1U PSUs.

FlexATX is the same power density as SFX, but with the components rearranged.

 

You can make magnetics smaller, but then you run the risk of losing efficiency.  You can use GaN and that will save you maybe 25% if you use it to replace ALL of the MOSFETs and not just the primary side.

 

My estimation is you could have a 1000W SFX PSU if you: 

 

1. Follow the ATX12VO design guide and get rid of the +3.3V and +5V.

2. Use all GaN FETs instead of silicon MOSFETs.

3. Don't try to achieve epic ripple suppression as additional filter caps are required.

4. Don't try to adhere to Intel's 16ms hold up time as bulk caps take up a lot of space.

 

[Windows7ge]

4 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

FlexATX is the same power density as SFX, but with the components rearranged.

 

You can make magnetics smaller, but then you run the risk of losing efficiency.  You can use GaN and that will save you maybe 25% if you use it to replace ALL of the MOSFETs and not just the primary side.

 

My estimation is you could have a 1000W SFX PSU if you: 

 

1. Follow the ATX12VO design guide and get rid of the +3.3V and +5V.

2. Use all GaN FETs instead of silicon MOSFETs.

3. Don't try to achieve epic ripple suppression as additional filter caps are required.

4. Don't try to adhere to Intel's 16ms hold up time as bulk caps take up a lot of space.

 

Yeah but the world isn't demanding 1000W SFX PSUs. Since there's no demand there's no supply. At least in the consumer space. I'd also see it being quite tedious to redesign hardware to run entirely off 12V. Or break it down on the circuit board.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Windows7ge said:

Yeah but the world isn't demanding 1000W SFX PSUs. Since there's no demand there's no supply. At least in the consumer space. I'd also see it being quite tedious to redesign hardware to run entirely off 12V. Or break it down on the circuit board.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/devices-systems/desktops/single-rail-power-supply-platform-atx12vo-design-guide.html

 

But it's not going to be cheap because GaN parts aren't cheap (yet) and the engineers aren't up to speed on how to fully optimize the parts.

[ImAyaanKhan]

1 minute ago, jonnyGURU said:

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/devices-systems/desktops/single-rail-power-supply-platform-atx12vo-design-guide.html

 

But it's not going to be cheap because GaN parts aren't cheap (yet) and the engineers aren't up to speed on how to fully optimize the parts.

No offence but you may be a little biased in this topic due to the fact that you are an industry affiliate

[SenKa]

1 minute ago, jonnyGURU said:

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/devices-systems/desktops/single-rail-power-supply-platform-atx12vo-design-guide.html

 

But it's not going to be cheap because GaN parts aren't cheap (yet) and the engineers aren't up to speed on how to fully optimize the parts.

Question, how does Intel expect to have this at all be relevant? 3.3v and 5v rails are pretty important even assuming Intel sees a future of no SATA devices.

[Skiiwee29]

2 minutes ago, ImAyaanKhan said:

No offence but you may be a little biased in this topic due to the fact that you are an industry affiliate

He was long the PSU expert well before LTT was around. Learn from his words as he is one of the worlds most known experts in PSUs. Be appreciative that he takes time out of his busy day and schedule to help educate and provide guidance to us when it comes to PSUs. 

[ImAyaanKhan]

2 minutes ago, Skiiwee29 said:

He was long the PSU expert well before LTT was around. Learn from his words as he is one of the worlds most known experts in PSUs. Be appreciative that he takes time out of his busy day and schedule to help educate and provide guidance to us when it comes to PSUs. 

Oh, alright, I didn't really know who he was and assumed he was just another employee at a large PSU manufacturing company, sorry

[Skiiwee29]

1 minute ago, ImAyaanKhan said:

Oh, alright, I didn't really know who he was and assumed he was just another employee at a large PSU manufacturing company, sorry

https://www.jonnyguru.com/ is where it all started. 

 

NOTE: I do not believe he is affiliated with the site any longer. 

[ImAyaanKhan]

3 minutes ago, Skiiwee29 said:

He was long the PSU expert well before LTT was around. Learn from his words as he is one of the worlds most known experts in PSUs. Be appreciative that he takes time out of his busy day and schedule to help educate and provide guidance to us when it comes to PSUs. 

Woah, just checked his bio, everything makes a lot more sense now, thank you

[Spotty]

1 hour ago, ShafterGT said:

It cant be that difficult to make a power supply small. I bet i could fit a 650 watt unit in a 5 inch drive bay.

650W PSU in to a 5.25" bay?...

 

19 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

My estimation is you could have a 1000W SFX PSU if you: 

How far do you think you could go with the dimensions OP specified (5.25" bay)? Rough dimensions are about 42mm x 148mm x 160mm

 

I'm just spitballing here...
The width/depth dimensions of a 5.25" bay aren't that dissimilar to a lot of ATX PSUs. The Corsair RM650x is 86x150x160mm. Only real difference is the height. But in a regular PSU 25mm is taken up by the fan at the top anyway.
Could maybe fit some 40x10mm fans at the front of the unit blowing air directly through it from front to back.

Possibly mount the hold up cap sideways if it's too tall?

Might need to use some slightly smaller coils, smaller transformer, compact heatsinks...

Reconfigure the design so the AC input is on the same side as the cables (to allow for power pass-through to route power from the rear of the case from the inside so you don't have an AC plug at the front of your 5.25" bay)

 

Might be an interesting project for a hobbyist/enthusiast to tackle, but personally I think it's a bit redundant trying to replace the "outdated" ATX design by using the 5.25" bay design as the "new" standard... Do cases even have 5.25" bays these days?

 

Just now, ImAyaanKhan said:

No offence but you may be a little biased in this topic due to the fact that you are an industry affiliate

He's also the only one here who has actual experience in designing ATX PSUs... I mean, if anyone is qualified to answer it is him. And trust me, Jon's comments definitely do not reflect the views of his company

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Spotty said:

 

How far do you think you could go with the dimensions OP specified (5.25" bay)? Rough dimensions are about 42mm x 148mm x 160mm

 

Would have to mount a lot of components sideways.  Also, cooling is limited.  I mean, you could put some 40mm fans in there, but it's going to be loud as f***.  Could possibly get 850W to 1000W if you don't meet Intel's hold up time requirement, +12V only, and don't expect ripple to be much below 120mV.

[ShafterGT]

Good stuff here. I have solutions to most of the points that were brought up. I'm visioning a power supply with a similar footprint to the FlexATX, but with different dimensions, so that there is less space wasted both on the inside and the outside. Not reinventing the wheel here. This is *just* outside my aria of expertise though, so yea ill need a detailed schematic, and explanations for some of the more obscure parts. And I'm not worried about paying a little more for better capacitors. 

 

Also, automation, specifically industrial automation, actually *is* my aria of expertise, so I've already got the basics of that conceptualized.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SenKa said:

Question, how does Intel expect to have this at all be relevant? 3.3v and 5v rails are pretty important even assuming Intel sees a future of no SATA devices.

They want the motherboard manufacturers to put the D2D on the motherboards.

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, ShafterGT said:

Good stuff here. I have solutions to most of the points that were brought up. I'm visioning a power supply with a similar footprint to the FlexATX, but with different dimensions, so that there is less space wasted both on the inside and the outside. Not reinventing the wheel here. This is *just* outside my aria of expertise though, so yea ill need a detailed schematic, and explanations for some of the more obscure parts. And I'm not worried about paying a little more for better capacitors. 

 

Also, automation, specifically industrial automation, actually *is* my aria of expertise, so I've already got the basics of that conceptualized.

 

 

Well, in SMPS manufacturing, the only thing automation helps is labor costs.  It doesn't help make products smaller.  Besides, about 25% of PSU manufacturing is already automated, and the labor in China is so cheap, there's no benefit to automation in final assembly.

[WWicket]

1 hour ago, Spotty said:

650W PSU in to a 5.25" bay?...

 

How far do you think you could go with the dimensions OP specified (5.25" bay)? Rough dimensions are about 42mm x 148mm x 160mm

 

I'm just spitballing here...
The width/depth dimensions of a 5.25" bay aren't that dissimilar to a lot of ATX PSUs. 

The dimensions of a std. flexATX PSU is exactly the same as a half-height 5.25" drive (standard 5.25 disc drive..):

 

150mm (L) × 81.5 mm (W) × 40.5mm (H)--> 495112 cubic mm.

 

@ShafterGT 600W FlexATX: https://www.amazon.com/Enhance-Supply-ENP-7660B-1-Year-Warranty/dp/B07H3CGGMS "I bet i could fit a 650 watt unit in a 5 inch drive bay" - DONE.

 

1 hour ago, jonnyGURU said:

FlexATX is the same power density as SFX, but with the components rearranged.

 

SFX: 128mm(L) x 65mm(W) x 102mm(H)--> 858640 cubic mm. 

For 1000W SFX, that is 858 cubic mm per W. Assuming same power density, that would be equivalent 600W standard flexATX PSU.