Re: Let's talk about our big mistake... - AMD Ryzen 2nd vs 3rd Gen - LTT, can you stop flip flopping please?

[BlueGoliath]

(Note: tried to make this reasonably calm in order to avoid any possible reason for a moderator to take this down. I don't post here and I don't know how removal/ban happy the moderators are. If you are a moderator and have any issues with this please PM me or something first and I can change it. Thanks.)

 

Hey LTT, can you stop with the flip flopping on AMD's CPUs? 

 

This has kind of been an on-going thing but... your remarks regarding AMD's CPUs in your recent video don't at all match what was said in your previous Ryzen CPU reviews at all. At no point in ANY of your reviews did you EVER say that first or second generation are "top-tier performance". 

 

Here in the Ryzen 1 review conclusion it was even said that(and I quote):

 

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The takeaway here ISN'T that the 1700x devoured all in its path...

 

which isn't even close to being "top-tier performance".  A CS:GO benchmark earlier in the same freaking video even backs that claim up.

 

and again with the Ryzen 2 review, not ever at any point was Ryzen 2 claimed to have top-tier performance. Once again, in the same video, it was said that:

 

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...and of course, when it comes to gaming, Intel still steals the show....

 

In other words, it doesn't have top-tier performance.

 

While i'm at it, that CS:GO benchmark you tech YouTubers do is not in anyway representative of actual in-game performance. You will and do get abnormally high framerates that you would never see in-game at any reasonable level of consistency.  I get that CS:GO has no actual official benchmark but people are going to just take those numbers and expect that's what they will get in-game. That CS:GO benchmark is so unrepresentative of any actual real-world performance that it causes a power limit bottleneck on a GTX 1080 FTW2(215 Watt default). No actual real world GPU load does this EVER. It may get close but never enough to trigger the power limit performance limiter from NVML. You're misleading people using this benchmark and you should know that.

 

Then you take simply misleading to downright being idiotic territory in your LTT gaming lounge video when you compared Intel Vs. AMD gaming performance, . Since freaking when is the massive performance difference in CS:GO and Apex Legends on AMD Vs. Intel not a big deal?

 

 Do you even play CS:GO?

 

Have you ever even uncapped the framerate and let it go beyond 144Hz/whatever the monitor's refresh rate is? 

 

I feel a LTT  "you can only see 24 FPS" moment here. Playing a game at extremely high framerates, especially for CS:GO, is big deal. Hell, you don't even need a 144Hz monitor to see that, even with a  basic OEM at 60Hz you'l notice a massive reduction in latency between your mouse/keyboard movements and what happens on-screen. This shouldn't be news to anyone, especially not someone who uses such high-end hardware like LTT.

 

And of course, the video shows that AMD once again is beaten by Intel.

 

Yet, despite this, you say that AMD has had top tier performance for 3 generations. That's blatant BS and your previous videos state and prove that.

 

While i'm at it, can I just point out the irony in you people saying you(and I quote):

 

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 had given up on AMD… until today

 

 

in one of your YouTube video titles despite using AMD for your gaming lounge which you released earlier. Really? I know your company is hurting for money since Linus keeps dropping all the expensive hardware all the damn time(/joke) but this is blatant BS. You obviously had plenty of faith in AMD if you used their CPUs in your gaming lounge despite the massive performance differences between the two. In fact, your faith was so great you ignored the massive performance difference and used them regardless.

 

Which, by the way, what the actual hell happened there? This is Linus Tech Tips, you don't compromise, remember Linus? LTT is always balls to the wall. You throw in Titan graphics cards just because you can despite it not really being for gaming, remember? So why are you settling for so much less for your own employee gaming lounge now all of a sudden?

 

But back to your recent video....

 

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In total, you would have spend just $500 in total and would have gotten to enjoy three generations of CPUs from AMD.

 

 

There is absolutely no guarantee that a first generation motherboard would be able to safety handle a third generation CPU, as many didn't have extremely good VRMs.

 

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If you're on a A320 board, well, you're out of luck if you want to upgrade to Zen 2.

 

OK, so why aren't you or anyone else for that matter calling them out for that? They promised full forwards compatibility when they first revealed the AM4 socket, didn't they? Aren't you supposed to criticize them for that? Hello?

 

Something tells me that if Intel pulled this ya'll would be all over them but because AMD is an underdog and is apparently new to the CPU business(they aren't, actually) they get off the hook? Really?

 

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Compromises had to be made to maintain stability and the user experience.

 

Like removing BIOS features and not supporting newer CPUs when they said they would?

 

Why does LTT pretend that AMD is somehow new to the CPU game and that CPUs are made within days without years of planning and/or research and development? Your telling me that they didn't know approximately how large their firmware was going to be or that motherboard vendors would need better VRMs in order to insure safe usage with newer CPUs and couldn't release public recommendations of base motherboard hardware? Really?

 

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That's just life, you know?

 

Excuse me, but are you or are you not tech reviewers? Is it not your responsibility to review products fairly without bias, report on things that affect said products(BIOS/Firmware update bugs), and criticize companies when they do something bad? Why are you just sitting there and shrugging like you're some innocent bystander and not a channel with over 9 million subscribers and major industry influence who reviews these products and follows the industry? YOU should be ass-blasting them for breaking their promises, but instead you're basically kissing their ass. Really?

 

Furthermore, why does LTT keep ignoring BIOS/Firmware screwups from AMD and their board partners? There was a major firmware bug that affected many Ryzen systems in Frostbite engine games which didn't get fixed for months. Absolutely no coverage on that whatsoever. What about motherboard vendors reducing the features on their motherboards? Does LTT even use more than one motherboard/BIOS version unless they absolutely have to switch to something else? It took Asrock over 10 BIOS versions to get the HD UEFI to run at good performance with their Taichi X370! How can you even claim that your reviews are representative when you don't ever seem to test with any other motherboards/BIOS versions? Why do you pretend like the platform doesn't matter when clearly motherboard manufacturers can and will violate specifications in order to get better results on their boards?

 

 

And how many times does AMD need to screwup before you and other tech YouTubers realize that AMD is, as they've historically always been, inept when it comes to drivers and firmware? How many "forgot to add UEFI firmware to our GPU" level moments does it take for you to start criticizing them? At what point do you take off the training wheels on a huge long-established corporation with a record of bad driver/firmware releases and start calling them out for it? 

 

Your reviews aren't even long. Why not bump those reviews to 12 minutes at least by spending time talking about the underlying platform? Why not revisit these motherboards in a roundup every month or so and compare performance? 

 

Why not give honest, complete, and fair reviews? Your reviews(not even specific to AMD products) are so all over the place with points being made about one product but not about another. Sometimes there are good explanations for these(price, for example) but there are also other cases where there isn't. It's like every review is just kinda winging it and whatever jumps out and remembered is mentioned. This has gotten better over the years but some reviews still seem like there isn't any real structure. Again, they aren't even that long so why not extend them a tiny bit and give a more complete review?

 

Why do you flip flop so much?

[DrMacintosh]

A lot of effort went into a post that is simply explained away by newer Windows updates, Driver updates, BIOS versions and micro-code updates. AMD is simply the CPU of choice for most people in 2019.  

[Rainbow Dash]

Gamer Nexus has a bunch of detailed benchmarks done on games for the Ryzen 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen. 

[BlueGoliath]

On 9/3/2019 at 12:26 AM, DrMacintosh said:

A lot of effort went into a post that is simply explained away by newer Windows updates, Driver updates, BIOS versions and micro-code updates. AMD is simply the CPU of choice for most people in 2019.  

 

Really? Must have missed the YouTube videos where GTA 5 was running better on an 1800x than a 7700k. Got a link to a benchmark?

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by wkdpaul

[DrMacintosh]

3 minutes ago, BlueGoliath said:

 

Really? Must have missed the YouTube videos where GTA 5 was running better on an 1800x than a 7700k. Got a link to a benchmark?

 

 

That's funny because I never claimed that it did. LTT already explained why they went with AMD for their LAN center. Ryzen simply brings more to the table and for less money. It's nothing personal dude. You don't have to get so defensive about what CPUs LTT uses. It's not your money and it's not your rig. 

[BlueGoliath]

5 minutes ago, Rainbow Dash said:

Gamer Nexus has a bunch of detailed benchmarks done on games for the Ryzen 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen. 

 

Yeah, I really like Gamer Nexus's reviews but they only really cover one component at a time in-depth and it's never a motherboard. The most you see if buildzoid doing a VRM analysis and making a few remarks on BIOS quality.

[Rainbow Dash]

Just now, BlueGoliath said:

 

Yeah, I really like Gamer Nexus's reviews but they only really cover one component at a time in-depth and it's never a motherboard. The most you see if buildzoid doing a VRM analysis and making a few remarks on BIOS quality.

Buildzoid is the only person that can talk about a motherboard for 1 hour straight. Steve just leaves all the motherboard stuff to him. 

[BlueGoliath]

7 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

That's funny because I never claimed that it did.

 

Oh?

 

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simply explained away by newer Windows updates, Driver updates, BIOS versions and micro-code updates

 

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This has kind of been an on-going thing but... your remarks regarding AMD's CPUs in your recent video don't at all match what was said in your previous Ryzen CPU reviews at all. At no point in ANY of your reviews did you EVER say that first or second generation are "top-tier performance". 

 

 

I do believe you did. How do any of those things make a 1800x as good as a 7700k or in other words, top-tier performing for gaming for the time.

 

 

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You don't have to get so defensive about what CPUs LTT uses. It's not your money and it's not your rig. 

 

What hardware they feature and recommend is what people buy. They have influence. Again, just like them, you are shrugging and acting like they have nothing to do with it.

[DrMacintosh]

6 minutes ago, BlueGoliath said:

I do believe you did.

Then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how language and communication works. Never have I said that Ryzen outperforms a 7700K in GTA5. 

 

Good day, I shouldn’t have even commented on this post. 

[Drak3]

That legitimately reads as “I’m an Intel fanboy and can’t comprehend that AMD is able to compete in the high end market.”

 

Their chips are right behind Intel’s in gaming. The single core performance is neck and neck, and AMD is offering the same, if not more, cores for less money. And where AMD is behind, is only by margins only niche users care about.

[BlueGoliath]

8 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

That legitimately reads as “I’m an Intel fanboy and can’t comprehend that AMD is able to compete in the high end market.”

 

Their chips are right behind Intel’s in gaming. The single core performance is neck and neck, and AMD is offering the same, if not more, cores for less money. And where AMD is behind, is only by margins only niche users care about.

 

I have an 1800x, FYI.

 

And yeah, according to the benchmarks the new 3rd generation do. But first generations was beaten by the 7700k in Far Cry 5 despite being optimized for Ryzen...

 

Again, I'd love to know which update fixed that. I'm currently running latest everything and even in the Windows insider preview and i'm not seeing 7700k performance in games.  Seems like a mythical unicorn made by a troll or something....

[Drak3]

Just now, BlueGoliath said:

But first generations was beaten by the 7700k in Far Cry 5 despite being optimized for Ryzen...

By margins insignificant to the vast majority of gamers.

 

1 minute ago, BlueGoliath said:

I have an 1800x, FYI.

And?

[BlueGoliath]

19 hours ago, Drak3 said:

By margins insignificant to the vast majority of gamers.

Sure, not everyone plays CS:GO but the fact that the 1800x can't even achieve stable 60FPS in GTA 5 online is kind of a big deal. In some games it doesn't matter that much while in others it does.

 

Still, the irony of an AMD CPU being outperformed by a older Intel one is ironic.

 

19 hours ago, Drak3 said:

And?

Why would I be an Intel fanboy if I had an AMD CPU? Hello?

 

19 hours ago, Arika S said:

holy shit.....who cares.

9 million people are subscribed to them and presumably trust what they say and buy what they recommend.

 

Again, throwing your hands in the air and pretending like they don't review things.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, BlueGoliath said:

but the fact that the 1800x can't even achieve stable 60FPS in GTA 5 online is kind of a big deal.

That’s your system. Not Ryzen as a whole. The R5 1600 has no issues with 60FPS. The 1800X can hit double that with a 1080Ti.

 

https://www.userbenchmark.com/PCGame/FPS-Estimates-Grand-Theft-Auto-V/3727/251565.246455.Max.1080p.0

Spoiler

 

2 minutes ago, BlueGoliath said:

Why would I be an Intel fanboy if I had an AMD CPU? Hello?

Why should we believe you in the first place?

[BlueGoliath]

1 minute ago, Arika S said:

Buyer's remorse and you're trying to lay all the blame on LTT for your decision.

 

I mean, the 1800x isn't a good gaming CPU by a long shot but it's very good at software compiling which I do more often than you'd think. 

 

Not that there where any reviewers talking about the various BIOS/firmware update issues to begin with to base my decision on but OK, asking people to dig through random game forums for information is kinda fair I guess. I'll just have to google "ryzen <game> <potential issue>" and see what results I get. /s

 

5 minutes ago, Arika S said:

"I'm not racist, I have black friends" comes to mind.

 

Ah, so you fall on that side of the political spectrum.

 

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not that they DON'T review anything. It comes back to not relying on ONE single review to base your purchasing decisions on.

 

I took it that way because this isn't relevant at all. Does this in anyway make the statements made by LTT in their newest video valid?

[JoeCoke]

19 minutes ago, BlueGoliath said:

 

the fact that the 1800x can't even achieve stable 60FPS in GTA 5 online

Woah, what? Then how the hell does my 2600k do it?...

 

Sounds more like an issue with your system.

[Drak3]

Just now, 2Buck said:

Woah, what? Then how the hell does my 2600k do it?...

Black magic.

[BlueGoliath]

13 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

That’s your system. Not Ryzen as a whole. The R5 1600 has no issues with 60FPS. The 1800X can hit double that with a 1080Ti.

 

https://www.userbenchmark.com/PCGame/FPS-Estimates-Grand-Theft-Auto-V/3727/251565.246455.Max.1080p.0

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Why should we believe you in the first place?

 

 

Those are presumably using the in-game benchmark which really isn't representative on in-game performance and has variance issues.

 

edit: and that's a GTX 1080 TI, not a GTX 1080. City is a CPU bottleneck while the desert is a GPU one.

 

IDK what you want from me, a screenshot of CPU-X?

[Blademaster91]

23 minutes ago, BlueGoliath said:

 

Sure, not everyone plays CS:GO but the fact that the 1800x can't even achieve stable 60FPS in GTA 5 online is kind of a big deal. In some games it doesn't matter that much while in others it does.

 

Still, the irony of an AMD CPU being outperformed by a older Intel one is ironic.

 

 

Why would I be an Intel fanboy if I had an AMD CPU? Hello?

You must have something wrong with your setup then, an 1800X should easily get 60FPS in GTA5.

And no, just because LTT has millions of subs, it doesn't mean you should listen to only them, being completely informed is up to you, look at a bunch of videos and written articles. For more detailed reviews I usually look at GamersNexus,HardwareUnboxed, and HardwareCanucks.

[JoeCoke]

8 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Black magic.

Sounds about right I guess.

 

4 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

You must have something wrong with your setup then, an 1800X should easily get 60FPS in GTA5.

For sure. Honestly, I'm positive my FX 8320 + 770 2GB rig can hit over 60 FPS stable. Sure, it's definitely not max settings, but it's an FX so... We can cut it some slack there.

[BlueGoliath]

3 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

You must have something wrong with your setup then, an 1800X should easily get 60FPS in GTA5.

 

Get? Yes. Maintain at all times? No.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

And no, just because LTT has millions of subs, it doesn't mean you should listen to only them, being completely informed is up to you, look at a bunch of videos and written articles. For more detailed reviews I usually look at GamersNexus,HardwareUnboxed, and HardwareCanucks.

 

This isn't about reviews but coverage of it in general. Point me to a tech reviewer that mentions BIOS/firmware bugs, please. 

[JoeCoke]

Just now, BlueGoliath said:

Get? Yes. Maintain at all times? No.

I'd really investigate what's causing that, because that's pretty messed up. I'm pretty sure if I lowered the settings enough my 3.4ghz q6600 rig could hack that. Not saying that as an absolute fact, but I'm pretty damn sure.

[Drak3]

3 minutes ago, BlueGoliath said:

Maintain at all times?

My 5930K has no issues maintaining 80 at stock with a 1080, and that is in the same ballpark as the R5 1600X.

1 minute ago, Arika S said:

I feel like this was supposed to be some sort of "gotcha" moment, but i have no idea what you're trying to get at.

 

It’s a poorly executed “You believe one thing (that I believe) is bad and wrongthink, therefore everything you say is bad and wrongthink.”

 

[BlueGoliath]

3 minutes ago, 2Buck said:

I'd really investigate what's causing that, because that's pretty messed up. I'm pretty sure if I lowered the settings enough my 3.4ghz q6600 rig could hack that. Not saying that as an absolute fact, but I'm pretty damn sure.

 

I already know what's causing it: memory latency. You look at MSI afterburner in the city and no single CPU core is being utilized 100% while the GPU is sitting there at like 30-40% and will even downclock due to lack of load. In the desert the opposite is true and FPS is more reasonable. You fly towards the city while looking at the city and the FPS plumments to like 45. Benchmarks look better because they are in the desert mostly, not the city.

 

You don't see this with an Intel CPU because it doesn't have 80ns of memory latency.

 

I tried tightening the timing and disabling SMT to reduce latency as much as possible(61ns at one point according to AIDA) which got me massive FPS gains but as Buildzoid said, getting memory overclockings stable on the Taichi is a pain in the ass even if it POSTs. Well, that and I don't have a clue how to do subtimings.

[GoldenLag]

18 hours ago, BlueGoliath said:

mean, the 1800x isn't a good gaming CPU by a long shot but it's very good at software compiling which I do more often than you'd think

Very few people liked the 1800x. Especially since the 1700 was a thing....

 

18 hours ago, BlueGoliath said:

Get? Yes. Maintain at all times? No.

So its a frametime issue?

 

Then its still quite possibly a setup issue. 

 

18 hours ago, BlueGoliath said:

 

I already know what's causing it: memory latency

What frequency are you running?

Is it singlechannel?

You mentioned twealing timing, what did you achieve?