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What is wrong with semi-informed people re: PC's these days?

maartendc
By maartendc
in General Discussion
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Posted
4 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

There's a few stages of gaining knowledge in a field:

  1. Not knowing anything, and knowing it.
  2. Gaining some knowledge, but not enough to know what you don't know. This can lead to overconfidence.
  3. Realizing that there are things you don't know, and setting out to learn them. This is the stage where people are extremely helpful. They may start bleeding knowledge.
  4. Being a subject master.

 

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Posted

I just think that Intel is reaping the benefits with their massively confusing product line. The misinformed knowledgeable people wouldn’t dare to touch anything lower than an i7 by fear of bottlenecking. And now there is an i9 option! So people will no doubt buy i9s now. Bigger number means superior. And now motherboards are doing something similar with the different chipsets. That’s how you convince people to buy multiple features they don’t need through deceiving chipset jargon! 

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Posted
2 minutes ago, kokakolia said:

The misinformed knowledgeable people wouldn’t dare to touch anything lower than an i7 by fear of bottlenecking. And now there is an i9 option! So people will no doubt buy i9s now. Bigger number means superior. And now motherboards are doing something similar with the different chipsets. That’s how you convince people to buy multiple features they don’t need through deceiving chipset jargon!  

Where exactly is this deceit? You are aware of the existence of ARK, right?

ENCRYPTION IS NOT A CRIME

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I blame Linus. He is attracting a different audience who care about certain less technical aspects of a PC and fail to pay attention to details that matter. The click bait is not helping. Read the Youtube comments than read the reddit comments. The tips in LinusTechTips is long gone. 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
4 hours ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

I think my most favorite moment about this topic in recent memory was when Steve Burke stress tested the Walmart Overpowered PC PSU and not only did it survive, but performed rather admirably for a cheap no-name power supply, and he almost seemed flabbergasted that the thing didn't fail outright.

Ohhhh, man. I remember this whole debacle about "who is Great Wall?"

I'm going to go off a bit of a tangent here, but I'm going to preface what I say with this: I don't know much about power supplies. I will never claim to know how they work on a more advanced level. But it really disappointed me when all of these people were coming out with that "Who the hell is Great Wall?" response to the PSU and not even bothering with trying to find out who they were.

Which, fine. They aren't very prevalent outside of China, and that's a valid argument to make. But all of these large reviewers didn't seem to do any sort of research on the OEM and then immediately trashed the PSU without attempting to figure out if it was a decent unit, at least that's how I took it.

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Posted
9 minutes ago, campy said:

On the topic of power supplies and unresearched opinions, I posted a status update about an idea to swap the internals in a dead xconnect I have with the guts from another psu to get it working again. And was told the psu is terrible and shouldn't be used outside of the factory

 

>ultra xconnect

>shouldn't be used out of the factory

Granted it's old, it's from 2002, but it was a VERY high end and high quality psu in its time. I would trust it the same as any modern 450w psu. It's not going to have the same modern technologies that high end power supplies today have but there's still quality components inside. I think it's dead because of a short on the connector board. 

 

And then I was told to go check the psu tier list and ask help for finding a unit within my budget.

Once again this is another situation of providing info nobody asked for. I'm not trying to resurrect a psu from 2002 to use it in my main PC, I just want to play around with modding it and getting it to work again.

But no, I better go read the word of god psu tier list and toss the unique collectible pc component in the trash instead of having some fun with it.

What do you psu lads suggest? CX450m? Of course, that's the only 450w psu anyone should buy :^)

If you're going to talk shit about someone, at least tag them.

Here's the status update @campy is referring to https://linustechtips.com/main/profile/397199-campy/?status=218605&type=status

Quote

Think I'm gonna attempt a PSU guts swap in my dead silver ultra x-connect.

The green one works, the silver one flickers on and then instantly off. Not sure why, not really worth attempting to repair. However I have a cheapo apevia 450w psu lying around I'm not using. It ran my Athlon 5350 for a few years fine and dandy. I'll swap the apevia internals into the x-connect.

The cool thing about the x-connect is that the modular cables are just male to male normal cables. I can solder the trimmed cables from the apevia directly to the connector board inside and then use the x-connect cables.

 

Or a second idea was to swap the fans with UV purple ones and then get a set of custom male to male purple sleeved cables to have the most bitchin early 2000's psu on the planet.

 

Here was my reply to the status update which appears to be what @campy is upset about.

Quote

Do not open a PSU. There is risk of serious injury.

 

This is an awful idea. Both PSUs are crap and should not be used as they come out of the factory, let alone with someone tinkering and swapping internals around.

 

Just buy a new, good quality unit. 

If you post in the PSU forum people will be able to help you pick a unit within your budget that meets your needs.


Given the nature of this thread, I'm happy to be educated on any errors I made in my reply. Maybe someone like @Stefan Payne or @jonnyGURU with excellent technical knowledge with PSUs can explain to me why it was so outrageous and factually incorrect for me to suggest;

  • Not to open a faulty PSU as there is a risk of injury,
  • Not to replace the internals of a 15+ year old unit with the internals from a 'cheapo Apevia 450w',
  • that you should buy a new unit instead,
  • and to post in the Cases and PSUs forum if you need help choosing a new unit

CPU: Intel i7 6700k  | Motherboard: Gigabyte Z170x Gaming 5 | RAM: 2x16GB 3000MHz Corsair Vengeance LPX | GPU: Gigabyte Aorus GTX 1080ti | PSU: Corsair RM750x (2018) | Case: BeQuiet SilentBase 800 | Cooler: Arctic Freezer 34 eSports | SSD: Samsung 970 Evo 500GB + Samsung 840 500GB + Crucial MX500 2TB | Monitor: Acer Predator XB271HU + Samsung BX2450

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Posted
22 hours ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

I think my most favorite moment about this topic in recent memory was when Steve Burke stress tested the Walmart Overpowered PC PSU and not only did it survive, but performed rather admirably for a cheap no-name power supply, and he almost seemed flabbergasted that the thing didn't fail outright.

Why should people who really are into PSU be surprised that it performed like it did?

Nobody really is as every somewhat OKish PSU performs pretty well because the knowledge is there, the technology cheap...

 

That it is in the end a better unit than a named brand one that was introduced back in 2010 should be obvious...

Oh and that one also didn't get a decent facelift. Or a decent supervisior IC...

They like to use the garbage HY-510N in many PSU for whatever reason...

 

Even the cheaper units can be somewhat reasonable and outperform this named brand one, while beeing way cheaper (and only have a 30°C Safety rating, maybe 25°C. But that's fine in this price range)...

 

23 hours ago, Froody129 said:

I just let it go now. I used to think "why don't you just spend 30 seconds and Google this? Then I realised there's always a brigade of people who seem to always be new to the forum who are happy to help, so everyone is happy and I have no problem.

Yeah, asking questions isn't a bad thing and shows that someone is interested.

As long as he/she thinks about the question and the content...

 

Sadly often the question doesn't list the Components, the amount of money they like to spent or - most importantly - where they are from or could order from...

 

23 hours ago, Froody129 said:

I have a problem when people think they know everything about PCs and force their "knowledge" onto other people, even if it's just wrong. 

What about the people that bought something and ask if their decision was good?? (hint: in most cases its not).

Or ask a question about buying a thing and ignoring all the advise that they get. Even if 10 people say the same thing...

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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Posted
18 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Why should people who really are into PSU be surprised that it performed like it did?

Nobody really is as every somewhat OKish PSU performs pretty well because the knowledge is there, the technology cheap...

Why are people perpetuating the idea that unless you buy from certain manufacturers, you're getting a cheap fireworks box that blows up and takes your components with it the moment you give it any decent load?

 

People just assume things based on one or two pieces rather than test the thing as a whole to verify their claims.

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Posted

For some very specific topics it wouldn't be bothering me at all... 
Also because if I'm not a totally expert on something, I'm curious to hear other people which may have better experience 

I mean, very very specific topics, because I agree with OP basically as some things are easy to understand and require less effort to searching on google

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3 hours ago, campy said:

On the topic of power supplies and unresearched opinions, I posted a status update about an idea to swap the internals in a dead xconnect I have with the guts from another psu to get it working again. And was told the psu is terrible and shouldn't be used outside of the factory

Yes, they are right. And you are wrong.

There are many things you didn't think about. For example the airflow.

Your shitty Ultra from 15 years ago seems to have a double 80mm fan layout, while modern units are made for 120mm fans.

 

In worst case scenario you'll cause a fire becase the hot components don't get the airflow they need or want. Because the fan blows in a different area than the engineer designing the PSU expected it to be. Although I'm not a fan of Top Blow layouts, I can see why they aren't possible today with modern layouts...

 

And then there are other things like DANGER FOR YOUR LIFE because the main Capacitors hold the charge even days after its turned off. And no bleeding resistor across it (for efficiency reasons)

And we're talking here about a 400V shock at worst. Not just 100V or whatever you have where you live...

 

 

3 hours ago, campy said:

>ultra xconnect

>shouldn't be used out of the factory

Granted it's old, it's from 2002, but it was a VERY high end and high quality psu in its time.

Sorry, but that's just an outright lie.

Because at the time there were no useful PSU Reviews! @jonnyGURU was either the first or one of the first that started decent, useful PSU reviews according to Intel Specifications. And that was a couple of years later. Like 2005 or so.

 

I've found a "review" of that unit, where they opened the PSU up. And, well, it looks awful:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article193-page2.html

 

Here another one with some testing:

http://www.slcentral.com/ultra-x-connect-500w-titanium-psu/page6.php

But didn't have an osciloscope it seems...

 

But then again, by todays standards, there were no decent Consumer units!

There were some awesome ones, yes. And I have one (maybe two?) from them that are awesome and not sold to "normies" like us. Siemens, Dell, HP and co could get them though. If they knew where to look. Hint: NMB (yes, the ones known for their fans!)

3 hours ago, campy said:

I would trust it the same as any modern 450w psu.

I would not.
Because in the last ~15 Years the load switched from 5V towards 12V.

If you use one of those old units with modern components, you will kill both rather shortly because they were not made for modern transients and also not designed for low 5V Load and high 12V Load. They were designed for low 12V load of a couple of amps and really beeing bashed on 5V...

 

And the PSU are just soo much better.

Its like comparing an Opel Kapitän with a modern Fiat Punto.
It is safe to assume that the modern small car is just soo much better than the 50-70 year old high end car.

 

Its similar with PSU, there was just soo much innovation just in the last 10 years, that you can say that the older PSU are just crap.

And I'm not talking about the +25% Efficiency gain (we are talking about high 60% efficiency numbers with 72% peak here vs. up to 95% or so today. The "normal ones" are "only" at the 90% mark. That was something unimaginable at the time!)


I'm also talking about Voltage Regulation and Ripple/Noise. The Spec was needed at the time because it was what was possible in ~1995 when Intel wrote the Spec.

 

Today you would make it completely different and also specify way tighter voltage regulation as well.

 

3 hours ago, campy said:

It's not going to have the same modern technologies that high end power supplies today have but there's still quality components inside. I think it's dead because of a short on the connector board. 

You are wrong because todays shittiest, somewhat trustworthy PSU like a 450W Xilence Performance C is far better than like 90% of all units from like 2002 or 2003, if you would build them with the same components today. They are just that bad...

At the time nobody had an idea about PSU - not even many "manufacturers" like Antec for example. So the only somewhat OK/decent units at the time (up to like 2006 or 7 when others caught up) were Enermax, IMO.

 

And you mentioned a 450W Apevia. Maybe it was this one?

https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/apevia-turbolink-atx-tl450w-bk-power-supply-review/7/

Yeah, right...

Really? That looks really really bad. Even by 2005 standard

 

 

The other Plexiglas PSU that was reviewed on Jonnyguru.com a while ago I can not find right now...

But it was just bad...

 

But I've found this:

https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/young-year-yp-ab-transparent-power-supply/

 

3 hours ago, campy said:

Once again this is another situation of providing info nobody asked for. I'm not trying to resurrect a psu from 2002 to use it in my main PC, I just want to play around with modding it and getting it to work again.

You commented openly on the Internet about something you want to do.

Its safe to assume that someone will comment on that as well.


And its safer to assume that someone will post something you do not like.

 

In this case people told you that whatever you wanted to do was not a good idea...

 

I really don't get why people are so unable to accept different oppionions, especially if it is something that might potentially lead to the end of their life!

Or destruction of their Property (=FIRE!)

 

Especially when there was this story a couple of years ago:

https://www.cnet.com/news/teen-electrocuted-while-working-on-unplugged-computer/


For the US users:

https://fox4kc.com/2012/10/08/kansas-teen-electrocuted-while-working-on-computer/

 

 

And there is this as well:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/26/exploding_computer_vs_reg_reader/

 

And that was a GERMAN with an in GERMANY bought PSU!

 

THAT is what happens when something goes wrong on a lower quality PSU...

3 hours ago, campy said:

What do you psu lads suggest? CX450m? Of course, that's the only 450w psu anyone should buy :^)

One of the few...

The others are be quiet Straight Power 11 and Bitfenix Formula and Whisper M.

Besides that there are no other "450W" PSU.

There might be 400 (Pure Power 10, 11) and 430W (Xilence Performance A+).

 

It is really the case that there are hardly any good quality 450W PSU available, even in Countrys like Germany...

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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20 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

Why are people perpetuating the idea that unless you buy from certain manufacturers, you're getting a cheap fireworks box that blows up and takes your components with it the moment you give it any decent load?

 

People just assume things based on one or two pieces rather than test the thing as a whole to verify their claims.

I have no idea but its a general problem that people tend to go "by brand" (ie I only by Apple Computers or Intel CPUs or nVidia Graphics cards)...

And everything they don't know they don't trust. Here in Germany we have a saying that is like "what the farmer doesn't know he doesn't eat"...


The Problem is that sometimes certain manufacturers don't have good products in their lineup in certain price regions. Or are totally overrated as well...

 

So in other words, they are overpaying for something or are not getting the best product for the money they want to spent...

"Hell is full of good meanings, but Heaven is full of good works"

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Posted

You're barking up the wrong tree OP. This forum is full of kids building their first PC who know nothing and don't know enough to interpret google results. There are a select few people that have actual knowledge of these topics, the rest of the people here just parrot back what's most popular at the time without having done any research themselves. 

 

Honestly unless you're trying to pair a 10 year old chip with a brand new high end GPU, you're probably not bottle-necking in any meaningful way.

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As long as I can understand the poster and they are nice about it, I'll be happy to help.

 

Personally (and a bit off topic) I'm a strong advocate for some basic-level computer science being taught in grade school with options for more advanced electives to prep students for STEM education pathways.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Why should people who really are into PSU be surprised that it performed like it did?

Nobody really is as every somewhat OKish PSU performs pretty well because the knowledge is there, the technology cheap...

Being surprised it was decent is fine, the PSU wasn't even properly labeled, and you can't expect the average consumer to waste time Googling if it won't burn their house to the ground when its much easier to go purchase from a reputable brand. Yeah a decent motherboard,case, and dual channel ram was cheap too yet the OEM for that walmart PC cut way too many corners on it, so of course the PSU is suspicious unless the reviewer has the all of the test equipment to find out if its decent.

On the topic though, I don't mind helping at all, i may learn something from other replies, but sometimes I can't stand the "oh why are you buying that waste of money buy this thing instead" answers when the OP isn't even asking for other recommendations.

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On 1/4/2019 at 6:52 PM, straight_stewie said:

Gaining some knowledge, but not enough to know what you don't know. This can lead to overconfidence.

90% of this forum summed up.

 

 

On 1/4/2019 at 7:11 PM, Finwillwin said:

Well, you have to understand that not everyone is that knowledgeable, and the only way to learn is to ask.

No it's not. You will never pass any higher level education with that attitude. Learning how to do research for yourself, and interpret information for yourself are very crucial tools you need to learn.

Asking things you can look up for yourself is just being lazy and not wanting to think.

 

On 1/4/2019 at 7:11 PM, Finwillwin said:

Most tech-related questions that you google will be answered with a forum post.  That is why people ask here because it is dynamic and more accurate.  Most newbies are quite pleasant when asking so I don't mind. 

I seriously hope you don't think answers on this forum are accurate. A lot of times they are completely wrong, and are just parroting what they heard someone else (who is wrong) say.

If you want accuracy, do a bit of studying so that you understand the subject, work out a hypothesis for yourself and then look up confirmation for it.

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1 minute ago, Finwillwin said:

Okay then, I guess I'll never ask a teacher/professor about anything? What I was saying is that most people who ask questions on this forum HAVE researched on other websites, but want someone to confirm or help them with something they are not sure. One of the main points of this forum is tech support, I have no clue why you would be frustrated at this fact. Ignorant people who aren't willing to learn are annoying, uninformed people that are willing to learn are not. 

No need to have such black and white thinking. It is okay to ask some things, but if it's something which you can easily look up for yourself that has been asked and answered thousands of times already, then no, don't ask your teacher that. You're depriving the other students valuable time and if everyone acted that way a significant chunk of the time with the professors/teachers would be wasted.

 

6 minutes ago, Finwillwin said:

Honestly, any misinformation on this forum gets disproven quite quickly. I rarely see any thread end in someone being misguided.  Have some empathy for less experienced PC enthusiasts man, a lot of information on PCs and technology can be quite confusing.

Sadly, I do not share your view that misinformation on this forum gets disproved quickly, or that people rarely gets misguided.

I think this forum is full of misinformation that gets parroted over and over, and as a result people constantly get the wrong idea about things.

 

 

4 minutes ago, campy said:

This is why I have (48 or 49?) GPUs now in various performance tiers in the spectrum of older and budget cards. So when someone asks about a budget gpu I can give them actual answers instead of just what someone else has said elsewhere. 

Im not going to rely on someone else's benchmarks of GPUs in the current sub 40$ used market. I have a GTX 465/460/470/555/550/550ti/560/5560ti and AMD/ATI equivalents so I can test it in whatever it is they're trying to do with a CPU for it, a low end CPU and something high end above the tier of the card. So I can tell them this is how these few cards will perform in these few games you want to play and here's what it costs and if it's really worth buying anyway.

That's good, but not really what I meant by "do the research yourself". I'd qualify looking up a few different, trusted third party benchmarking websites and comparing their results as "doing research yourself".

In other words, I think people should look up results and interpret those for themselves, rather than ask someone else to interpret things for them. Blindly trusting someone to interpret things for you leaves you very vulnerable to being fooled/misinformed. Same goes for people who only look up one review and assume that's 100% accurate. Look up maybe 4-5 different reviewers and compare their results. If someone is an outlier who has totally different performance gaps between two products, maybe assume that something strange is going on.

 

I fucking hate when people on this site find one particular review which shows a product in very good or poor light, and then repeatedly posts that review over and over, even though 10 other reviews might contradict it. If 10 reviewers gets one type of result, and 1 reviewer gets different results, chances are the 10 reviewers are correct and then 1 reviewer is incorrect.

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4 hours ago, campy said:

It's against the rules to name and shame, hence why I didn't and instead alluded to a status update. 

No rules against naming and shaming, though I guess it would fall under "Don't be a dick" - though if you are going to make a post bitching about another user I think that rule would apply whether or not you tag them. I would have much preferred that if you had an issue with my post to have contacted me about it to discuss it, rather than going to a different thread and complaining about my post which does nothing to solve the issue. 

I'm also annoyed that you were misleading in regards to what I said. For example

10 hours ago, campy said:

And then I was told to go check the psu tier list and ask help for finding a unit within my budget.

...

But no, I better go read the word of god psu tier list and toss the unique collectible pc component in the trash instead of having some fun with it.

What do you psu lads suggest? CX450m? Of course, that's the only 450w psu anyone should buy :^)

I never said anything about the PSU tier list. I suggested if you need help picking out a new PSU you could go to the PSU forum and make a thread asking for help and that there are people on the forum who would be happy to help another user pick out a new PSU. Stuff like that is what these forums are for.

Quote

If you post in the PSU forum people will be able to help you pick a unit within your budget that meets your needs.

 

4 hours ago, campy said:

My point here is that you entirely ignored the idea behind the post and instead suggested scrapping the whole idea and buying and entirely different psu.

Thats not the point of doing that. I'm not going to try and make the xconnect usable again so I can actually use it, and for what I would use it for would have to be era appropriate hardware anyway because I doesn't even have a 24 pin or pcie power connectors. I think the best board I have with a 20 pin is an asrock 4coredual, one of those early 775 affairs with pcie and agp onboard

None of this was included in your status update, so don't expect people to be mind readers or be frustrated with them when they don't know things about your intentions or your specific system if you don't tell them those things.
 

4 hours ago, campy said:

I will open whatever psu I want because I'm not retarded and don't intend to gently rub my fingers on every surface inside for that funny tingling sensation. I am well, well aware that the internal components of a PSU can shock the hell out of me. I have worked with electrical systems that would burn holes through my body if I messed up, I'm not some random 12 year old with a screwdriver exploring pcs by taking them apart. 

I don't know who you are, what skills you do or do not have. I don't know whether you're some '12 year old with a screwdriver' or if you've been working on and repairing PSUs your entire life. Frankly it doesn't matter as I was giving general advice. Not everyone will understand the dangers of opening a faulty [or functional] PSU which is why it's important to warn of such dangers. If you do have the knowledge and expertise to do what you are doing safely, then all you needed to say was "Hey, thanks for the warning. I'm aware of the risks and I know how to do this safely. I appreciate your concern".

Just because you may have experience in electrical work or repairing power supply units, does not mean anyone else reading your posts or status updates would also have that experience.

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Remember your audience; both present and future.

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/965477-community-standards/

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