Need help with choosing the right aio cpu 280-360mm cooler

[Monra]

Hey i want to buy an Aio 280-360mm cooler that will provide my cpu with good cooling and will be able to cool future 10nm intel cpu (might buy amd 7nm who knows) 

My case:Thermaltake f31

Cpu:I5 7600k @4.9

Current cooler:Dark rock pro 3

Im looking for something that's in range of 130-190 euro

And i don't care about rgb would prefer to not have it. 
What should i buy guys ? 

 

[narrdarr]

Is there something your BQ DR3 cant handle that you feel a 280 or 360 aio can?

I believe  Delidding would probably yield better results over trading out you your DR3 for an AIO

[Monra]

my cpu is delidded sorry forgot to mention i don't have issue with temp 

i just want aio bcs it should perfrom better than drp3 and be more future proof 

and drp3 is so big that its hard to do something inside the tower and mounting drp3 is so .. freaking unfriendly

[narrdarr]

Actually your drp3 is going to to yield equal results to an aio. An aio can have more points of failer. Drp4 is easier to install imo. I don't have much experience first hand with aios but I'm very happy my deep cool 240 I'm sure thier 360 with would be just as satisfying

[Monra]

9 minutes ago, narrdarr said:

Actually your drp3 is going to to yield equal results to an aio. An aio can have more points of failer. Drp4 is easier to install imo. I don't have much experience first hand with aios but I'm very happy my deep cool 240 I'm sure thier 360 with would be just as satisfying

Drp4 has better install but still if im going to change cooler i would prefer to go for aio  will take a look at deep cool thanks

[narrdarr]

1 minute ago, Monra said:

Drp4 has better install but still if im going to change cooler i would prefer to go for aio  will take a look at deep cool thanks

Btw if you want something expandable say adding your gpu to the loop. Swifteck stays a bit underground but makes expandable aios 

[Monra]

1 hour ago, narrdarr said:

Btw if you want something expandable say adding your gpu to the loop. Swifteck stays a bit underground but makes expandable aios 

Swifttech looks amazing but it will be hard to buy in poland  could you recommend me a specific model ? 

[andrewmp6]

swiftech is going under last i heard from another vendor.

[bowrilla]

6 hours ago, Monra said:

i just want aio bcs it should perfrom better than drp3 and be more future proof

AiOs usually don't exceed the cooling performance of high end air coolers - they exceed only in price. And depending on your specific case installing your AiO cann be a pain as well. I.e. Phanteks Enthoo Evolv ITX, you need to install the Radiator on the top first because the tubes are too short for sliding in the mounting bracket with the radiator after the mainboard has been mounted with the cooler/pump on top. So it can be just a pain in a different way.

[AngryBeaver]

4 hours ago, andrewmp6 said:

swiftech is going under last i heard from another vendor.

They keep saying this yet they come out with new line after new line.

[AngryBeaver]

16 minutes ago, bowrilla said:

AiOs usually don't exceed the cooling performance of high end air coolers - they exceed only in price. And depending on your specific case installing your AiO cann be a pain as well. I.e. Phanteks Enthoo Evolv ITX, you need to install the Radiator on the top first because the tubes are too short for sliding in the mounting bracket with the radiator after the mainboard has been mounted with the cooler/pump on top. So it can be just a pain in a different way.

See this isn't actually true. Part of the problem is all of these temperature comparison are being done on open air test benches. I wish I could find my last post on this topic so I didn't have to keep typing up which this is wrong, but I will give it a quick go.

 

An AIO can take in fresh outside air or exhaust the heat directly out of the case. This means they are able to ignore or help control case temps. An air cooler can not do that and it will inherently be taking in hotter case air. This effect is compounded if you have a GPU that exhausts inside the case as well. An AIO can have more surface area which = more TDP of heat dissipation. Air coolers hit a point where they will create a situation where case temp climbs higher and higher which in returns caused their team to rise and this will spiral out of control. If you understand thermal Dynamics then you know the higher the DeltaT the more heat that transfers from cooler to air, but in a case where temperature rises with the cooler you don't see this effect that means you have a pretty firm TDP cap on air coolers. On an AIO when this occurs they are still taking in cool air or exhausting that heat directly out of the case... so the ambient temp isn't really affected so they are able to stabalise at a higher DeltaT when TDP is higher than what they are spec'd for.

 

Now an AIO does technically have more points of failure, but statistically pump and fan failure are the only ones that are important and if you pick a good manufacturer any damage caused if one ever did leak is completely covered by them. Now an AIO does have a max life of about 3-5 years before the liquid inside evaporates to the point it dies.

 

AIO's are in general much easier to fit in a case and a lot of people think they are more aesthetically pleasing. In the end I watercool the vast majority of my systems, but i very rarely use AIO's. I do have a swiftech AIO that I expanded to a full loop in one of my systems... and I still think they make one of the better AIO solutions.

[bowrilla]

13 minutes ago, AngryBeaver said:

See this isn't actually true. Part of the problem is all of these temperature comparison are being done on open air test benches [...]

Well, didn't say that case configurations can't have an influence. If you have a case with bad airflow and don't have any case fans then maybe an AiO can perform better. That also depends on the case you got because a lot of very popular cases have very restrictive radiator mounts (again, think of Phanteks Enthoo Evolv series). Without a mod those radiator fans have to work their asses off to get some air through the tiny vents. Open air testing is the fairest comparison since you have a controlled environment with the least system specific factors as possible. From there on the performance will only get worse for all coolers.

 

A good air cooler and some good quality case fans are still cheaper than most good AiOs, performance ist still equal or maybe in some cases only slightly worse but you haven't spent 2 to 3 times as much. If you want the looks, sure, do it. But don't expect to suddenly have amazing temps. If you get temp issues, think about a different case or do a custom loop.

[Monra]

Whoa thanks guys i will mount the aio on top so that's not a problem

54 minutes ago, AngryBeaver said:

See this isn't actually true. Part of the problem is all of these temperature comparison are being done on open air test benches. I wish I could find my last post on this topic so I didn't have to keep typing up which this is wrong, but I will give it a quick go.

 

An AIO can take in fresh outside air or exhaust the heat directly out of the case. This means they are able to ignore or help control case temps. An air cooler can not do that and it will inherently be taking in hotter case air. This effect is compounded if you have a GPU that exhausts inside the case as well. An AIO can have more surface area which = more TDP of heat dissipation. Air coolers hit a point where they will create a situation where case temp climbs higher and higher which in returns caused their team to rise and this will spiral out of control. If you understand thermal Dynamics then you know the higher the DeltaT the more heat that transfers from cooler to air, but in a case where temperature rises with the cooler you don't see this effect that means you have a pretty firm TDP cap on air coolers. On an AIO when this occurs they are still taking in cool air or exhausting that heat directly out of the case... so the ambient temp isn't really affected so they are able to stabalise at a higher DeltaT when TDP is higher than what they are spec'd for.

 

Now an AIO does technically have more points of failure, but statistically pump and fan failure are the only ones that are important and if you pick a good manufacturer any damage caused if one ever did leak is completely covered by them. Now an AIO does have a max life of about 3-5 years before the liquid inside evaporates to the point it dies.

 

AIO's are in general much easier to fit in a case and a lot of people think they are more aesthetically pleasing. In the end I watercool the vast majority of my systems, but i very rarely use AIO's. I do have a swiftech AIO that I expanded to a full loop in one of my systems... and I still think they make one of the better AIO solutions.

Thanks mate i've learned a lot from this post

So guys can you recommend me some kind of aio ?  

[AngryBeaver]

1 hour ago, bowrilla said:

Well, didn't say that case configurations can't have an influence. If you have a case with bad airflow and don't have any case fans then maybe an AiO can perform better. That also depends on the case you got because a lot of very popular cases have very restrictive radiator mounts (again, think of Phanteks Enthoo Evolv series). Without a mod those radiator fans have to work their asses off to get some air through the tiny vents. Open air testing is the fairest comparison since you have a controlled environment with the least system specific factors as possible. From there on the performance will only get worse for all coolers.

 

A good air cooler and some good quality case fans are still cheaper than most good AiOs, performance ist still equal or maybe in some cases only slightly worse but you haven't spent 2 to 3 times as much. If you want the looks, sure, do it. But don't expect to suddenly have amazing temps. If you get temp issues, think about a different case or do a custom loop.

Even with ideal case flow your case temp is going to be 3-7C higher than your ambient room temp.

 

Now looking at the example you gave about restrictive cases... that is true and will hurt AIO temps, but it will also have a more drastic impact on the air cooler. Restrictive cases will have an even harder time getting the flow needed to keep ambient case temp down... so in this scenario an AIO would still perform better.

 

As for pricing the best air coolers are in the 80-100 range now. You can get 240mm AIO's starting at 60-65 these days. They might not be the best performers in the pack, but the ones I am referring to have middling performance compared to other AIO's. If you look at the swiftech offerings you can get one for 150ish and it will actually perform closer to a custom loop than an AIO. So yes it would be $50-70 more, which isn't 2 to 3 times more. Then if we want to talk improved case fans for air flow that can easily add another 50-100 bucks  good case fans are 20-25 bucks in most cases PER.

 

Now let me explain the biggest different between an AIO and custom loop (outside of expansion options and maintenance). In an AIO you normally get a much weaker pump (not a terrible thing in most cases) a radiator that is normally low FPI (means less air flow required to cool efficiently, but less total cooling capacity), and thinner (less surface area)... now that doesn't mean they cannot perform really well it just means they are setup in a way to cut cost on fan requirements.

 

This means that your average AIO operates with a deltaT of about 13-15C. Now a full custom loop can have more rad space, and can use higher FPI and thickness rads. Even though most people go for less FPI so they can run lower rpm fans to make the machine more silent. The ultimate point I am getting to is most custom loops are running in the 5-10c DeltaT range with the average being around 8C in my opinion.

 

Now if you don't know DeltaT is the different between the water temp and the ambient temp outside the case (in this situation). So it has a direct effect on temps. If your cpu for example is 60 degrees at a DeltaT of 5C then at a DeltaT of 15C it would be 70 degrees. All in all this means a custom loop is 5C+ cooler on component temps in most cases.

 

Now back to why AIO's are better than Air coolers when it comes to a enclosed environment. As the temp of the water rises and the DeltaT climbs more and more heat can be transferred from the radiator to the ambient air. When you have access to fresh outside air this means you are able to transfer the most heat possible away. When setup as exhaust you are going to be restricted to the ambient case air which will be higher than outside air, but you have the benefit of moving that heat directly out of the case so that you aren't increasing that internal temp.

 

Now when it comes to an Air cooler you are stuck with the internal ambient temps and are also dumping that heat back in to your case. This means as the temperature of your cpu goes higher so does the ambient temp in your case which reduces the amount of heat your cooler can release in to the surrounding air. Now if you are running crazy high rpm fans 10k+ then sure this might not be a very limiting factor due to the amount of fresh air you can move, but the truth is that in most cases this isn't the case.

 

Even with properly configured fans you will have to deal with turbulence created by your heatsink fans and your gpu fans. This means that hotspots will still be formed in the case which will increase the ambient case temps. Now my explanation can make this seem worse than it actually is, but in most cases the ambient temp is going to be 5c or more hotter inside the case which as stated before hurts the efficiency of the air coolers. That is why when looking at open air tests for coolers you need to add about 5c to the temps to actually have a fair comparison to the AIO offerings.

 

Now I am not saying AIO's are the end all be all best choice. There is still nothing wrong with air coolers and they do a plenty good job. My point is that when it comes down to a pure best temp scenario the AIO is going to win when inside a case (assuming you go 240mm or above in size). Now if and when we get larger air coolers with better access to fresh air... this all could change, but right now size is going to be a huge limiting factor for air cooling when extreme cooling is wanted/needed.

[narrdarr]

4 hours ago, AngryBeaver said:

They keep saying this yet they come out with new line after new line.

speaking of... they have a new gpu block coming out for rtx cards

8 hours ago, Monra said:

Swifttech looks amazing but it will be hard to buy in poland  could you recommend me a specific model ? 

their newest model is the drive x3 "H360X3" for a 360 rad. there are other option on their website

swiftech ships worldwide

https://www.swiftech.com/shipping-policy.aspx