Morality questioned by Pirates

[Dabombinable]

5 minutes ago, aigars2 said:

But genuienly can I actually try any of the AAA games before I buy? The answer is no! However the law dictates that I should be able to test it before I buy.

You can with Hitman 2.....

[MysteriousAeon]

4 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

You can with Hitman 2.....

The exception proves the rule.

[Dabombinable]

Just now, MysteriousAeon said:

The exception proves the rule.

That was an example. This is a list for Steam games alone:
https://store.steampowered.com/demos#p=0&tab=ConcurrentUsers

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, 1kv said:

Not exactly. Sure, for most people it's morally fine to pirate something if you already own it but most countries around the world state in their laws that piracy of any sort is illegal. 

I doubt it'll take long before this page gets locked by a mod lol

The way I see it for EA though, they can't help me with my stolen account which I spend a lot of money on, so I can't help them with not pirating their games . 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Dabombinable said:

That was an example. This is a list for Steam games alone:
https://store.steampowered.com/demos#p=0&tab=ConcurrentUsers

I mean, they do it with every game really with their steam refunds. You have 2 hours of gametime, and if not satisfied you can ask for a refund. 

[aigars2]

Yeah, the list.  for 1% of the available games. Every Steam game by law has to have a Demo version. 

[Arika]

12 minutes ago, aigars2 said:

Every Steam game by law has to have a Demo version

Citation needed

[TetraSky]

1 hour ago, RorzNZ said:

I mean, they do it with every game really with their steam refunds. You have 2 hours of gametime, and if not satisfied you can ask for a refund. 

Except your refund request will be pending for approval, after which you'll have to wait days if not weeks to actually get your money back. It's really anywhere between an hour and 2 weeks with Valve.

If the refund was instantaneous no questions asked, it would be great, but it isn't.
This could result in someone missing out on a good sale, especially for low income folks who don't have spare cash to buy another game while waiting for their refund. 

Hence the importances of demos and while some games do still offer them, a lot more do not.(especially games from big studios)

 

Let's not even mention games with extra long loading time (no mans sky) or the kind that push a ton of "incredible content" within the first two hours and it's all downhill from there (again, no mans sky)

[Mira Yurizaki]

The only time I don't care if someone pirates something is if the company who holds the distribution rights does not seem to care or bother about making money off the product.

 

And while I'd like to think I don't pirate anything readily available for some moral obligation, I have a more pragmatic reason: If pirates are willing to screw over a company out of money, what makes me think they're perfect Robin Hoods who won't try to sneak something in to screw some poor sap over? Especially considering that all of the malware scanners I've had flagged pirating tools I've used in my "darker" days as containing some form of malware.

 

I also don't believe in the "pirating to demo it" justification. If a game's not worth buying at the price it's being offered at after researching all that you can, then it's not worth buying at that price period. If it's a recent release, are you sure this isn't a FOMO reaction taking over? Is any one really going to care you're not playing the latest games? And I feel like it's more entitled on the gamer's end to pirate a game to demo it if none is available than for the distributor to not provide a demo. There's nothing that says a distributor must provide a sample of their product anywhere from what I can tell. Otherwise, if you demand games have demos, then demand that every single product in your grocery store must have samples ready for you. Demand that you're legally allowed to have 10 minutes driving around a supercar to demo it. Demand that you should be legally able to live for a day in a house that's on the market.

[MysteriousAeon]

1 minute ago, M.Yurizaki said:

The only time I don't care if someone pirates something is if the company who holds the distribution rights does not seem to care or bother about making money off the product.

 

And while I'd like to think I don't pirate anything readily available for some moral obligation, I have a more pragmatic reason: If pirates are willing to screw over a company out of money, what makes me think they're perfect Robin Hoods who won't try to sneak something in to screw some poor sap over? Especially considering that all of the malware scanners I've had flagged pirating tools I've used in my "darker" days as containing some form of malware.

 

I also don't believe in the "pirating to demo it" justification. If a game's not worth buying at the price it's being offered at after researching all that you can, then it's not worth buying at that price period. If it's a recent release, are you sure this isn't a FOMO reaction taking over? Is any one really going to care you're not playing the latest games? And I feel like it's more entitled on the gamer's end to pirate a game to demo it if none is available than for the distributor to not provide a demo. There's nothing that says a distributor must provide a sample of their product anywhere from what I can tell. Otherwise, if you demand games have demos, then demand that every single product in your grocery store must have samples ready for you. Demand that you're legally allowed to have 10 minutes driving around a supercar to demo it. Demand that you should be legally able to live in a house that's on the market for a day.

You're comparing video games to real life products...

[Mira Yurizaki]

Just now, MysteriousAeon said:

You're comparing video games to real life products...

If computer games are not products, then they're a service provided by the distributor. In which case, you can no longer say you own the copy of any games you have in your possession.

[MysteriousAeon]

Just now, M.Yurizaki said:

If computer games are not products, then they're a service provided by the distributor. In which case, you can no longer say you own the copy of any games you have in your possession.

That is actually true if we're talking about digital purchases. Steam/PSN/Xbox Live goes away? Bye bye games.

[Mira Yurizaki]

1 minute ago, MysteriousAeon said:

That is actually true if we're talking about digital purchases. Steam/PSN/Xbox Live goes away? Bye bye games.

Not if you already possess a copy. At least for Steam games, you can remove the requirement that Steam needs to be running.

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

Except your refund request will be pending for approval, after which you'll have to wait days if not weeks to actually get your money back. It's really anywhere between an hour and 2 weeks with Valve.

If the refund was instantaneous no questions asked, it would be great, but it isn't.
This could result in someone missing out on a good sale, especially for low income folks who don't have spare cash to buy another game while waiting for their refund. 

Hence the importances of demos and while some games do still offer them, a lot more do not.(especially games from big studios)

 

Let's not even mention games with extra long loading time (no mans sky) or the kind that push a ton of "incredible content" within the first two hours and it's all downhill from there (again, no mans sky)

I usually get mine back within 24 hours, a little odd that it takes longer, maybe for different countries. Well said though and good point.

[SansVarnic]

Legally and morally piracy is wrong, this is why it is called piracy. Piracy is not a victimless crime.

[LukeSavenije]

as a reputable source and role model of many i have to say piracy is bad. as the guy that never paid for Windows and only gets a single licence per year, i kinda get why people do it

[mr moose]

pay your dues people, or you have no right to complain about what the big nasty corporations are doing to "your" software.

 

 

2 hours ago, MysteriousAeon said:

You're comparing video games to real life products...

Video games are real life products.  Just because the only protection they have is copyright and legal action as opposed to being able to control a physical products sales doesn't mean they are not a legitimate product.

[MysteriousAeon]

9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Video games are real life products.  Just because the only protection they have is copyright and legal action as opposed to being able to control a physical products sales doesn't mean they are not a legitimate product.

The guy was using it as an analogy as to why games don't have demos. "You can't try out the product in your grocery story." etc. It makes no sense to compare a game demo to a grocery store product.

[Arika]

1 hour ago, MysteriousAeon said:

The guy was using it as an analogy as to why games don't have demos. "You can't try out the product in your grocery story." etc. It makes no sense to compare a game demo to a grocery store product.

why?

 

If a demo exists, awesome. but if not, why is buying a bottle of milk off a shelf any different than buying a video game off a shelf; physical or digital?

[TetraSky]

2 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

Piracy is not a victimless crime.

Well, technically...
It could be argued that no one is "hurt" financially, because it's never certain if a pirate would've bought the product they've "tried" in the first place.
It could also be argued that refunds cost Valve money, because credit card transaction fees for "merchants" are a thing that needs to be paid and those are usually not refundable when refunding a customer.

[TetraSky]

3 minutes ago, Arika S said:

why?

 

If a demo exists, awesome. but if not, why is buying a bottle of milk off a shelf any different than buying a video game off a shelf; physical or digital?

It's really not the same thing and I don't understand how you could even think it is.

You normally can't return an opened bottle of milk after drinking a good portion of it just because you've decided "eh, I don't want it anymore", or any other such grocery items.
Groceries can be inspected, touched, smelled and judged based on your prior experience on other such items. (they are also a LOT less expensive compared to games)

You can't do that with a video game. They are usually unique in style, controls differently, runs differently on different machines and what not. Hence the importance of demos to try them before purchasing.

You could argue that there are youtube videos to let you "inspect" the games prior to buying, but you still wouldn't know if they are playable on your machine unless you find someone with a 100% similar computer as yours.

[Arika]

5 minutes ago, TetraSky said:

It's really not the same thing and I don't understand how you could even think it is.

You normally can't return an opened bottle of milk after drinking a good portion of it just because you've decided "eh, I don't want it anymore", or any other such grocery items.
Groceries can be inspected, touched, smelled and judged based on your prior experience on other such items. (they are also a LOT less expensive compared to games)

You can't do that with a video game. They are usually unique in style, controls differently, runs differently on different machines and what not. Hence the importance of demos to try them before purchasing.

You could argue that there are youtube videos to let you "inspect" the games prior to buying, but you still wouldn't know if they are playable on your machine unless you find someone with a 100% similar computer as yours.

yes, but there's also a difference between buying the game and returning it and pirating it to demo. if the store you're buying the game from accepts refunds. fantastic, use that. but as @M.Yurizaki the whole "pirating to demo it" justification doesn't fit right with any other situation when buying any other product.

 

Taking the milk as example. if would be like going to a store and taking the milk to the counter saying "i'm taking this just to see if i like it, if i do, then i'll pay for it, if i don't i get it for free anyway". You still consume the product without paying for it and "promising" to pay for it later, if you did indeed enjoy, it feels wrong.

[Mira Yurizaki]

4 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Taking the milk as example. if would be like going to a store and taking the milk to the counter saying "i'm taking this just to see if i like it, if i do, then i'll pay for it, if i don't i get it for free anyway". You still consume the product without paying for it and "promising" to pay for it later, if you did indeed enjoy, it feels wrong.

Or another way, those people who go to restaurants, eat the whole meal, then demand a comp because they "didn't like it".

[TetraSky]

28 minutes ago, Arika S said:

if i don't i get it for free anyway". You still consume the product without paying for it and "promising" to pay for it later,

Not saying these people don't exist. But they are not what is being argued here, those are just pirates saying they'll buy the game when it's cheaper but want to play it now. It's a whole other can of worms.
 

Usually when talking about "demo-ing" a game by pirating it, it's if you don't enjoy a game, you delete it. You don't "consume it" completely. You play maybe 30 minutes to see if you enjoy the game/can run it adequately and if you don't, you delete it and move on to something else without having to go through the hassle of refunding it.

It would be like taking a car for a test run before purchasing. You don't just leave the dealership with it saying you'll pay for it later maybe. You test the car, if it fits your needs you buy it, if it doesn't you move to the next car.

[xiamandrewx]

Wow, this gained more attention than I thought. Though I was hoping to cause a stir on the Internet, I want it to be known that I don't condone piracy. I don't do it normally because if I want to play a game I feel that the team who worked to develop the game deserve a paycheck, aka my money. However, in this odd case, Games for Windows Live is causing trouble with running it in Windows 10 on Steam. Obviously, I've followed the pinned super guide on steam or I wouldn't be turning to this final resort. I'm thinking a hacked version might just keep GFWL turned off from the start.

 

In my defense, I have tried everything to get the game to work through steam. I own the game, I have a key. I feel I have the right to play it. That's my moral standpoint.. turns out there's a lot of people who don't agree