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UPDATE 2 - Czech National Security Agency - Huawei, ZTE are a security threat

yeah because only the govt can have access to citizens' privacy, not some chinese companies haha

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3 hours ago, wANKER said:

I've not followed the news on this, but are there any actual reasons/examples again Huawei? Other than Because we said so

Yes there are, though not what people here are saying/like to believe.  During the investigation into ZTE Huawei was also implicated in a big way.  They were knowingly illegally selling high tech to North Korea and Iran(and tried to covert it up), that alone is enough of a reason to arrest and bar the businesses.  Any additional information that security personnel may or may not have is fairly irrelevant.  Ankle deep in shit or knee deep in shit, your still in shit.

To be frank the 'new proof' people seem to think that is needed, looking for chips on PCBs or whatever is a red-herring.

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8 hours ago, MoonSpot said:

They were knowingly illegally selling high tech to North Korea and Iran(and tried to covert it up), that alone is enough of a reason to arrest and bar the businesses

China and Chinese companies can sell as much tech as they like to North Korea it's not illegal for them to do so, it would be if they were the US or other nations. China isn't the US and aren't subject to the rules they want to impose. China did sign on to the trade embargos/sanctions on Iran though so we can say Huawei broke that.

 

You know who else has broken similar embargos, US companies among ones from other countries. I don't see a global scale baring of other companies guilty of the same thing.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/12/07/49-countries-have-violated-sanctions-on-north-korea-infographic/#826657b1e5d3

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/nov/04/deutsche-bank-us-sanctions-fine

 

People seem to be overly willing to hold other nations to the rules and standards of their own and then punish companies from that country simply because that is where they are from. What actually makes China care or have to comply with US sanctions on other countries?

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6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

People seem to be overly willing to hold other nations to the rules and standards of their own and then punish companies from that country simply because that is where they are from. What actually makes China care or have to comply with US sanctions on other countries?

It's worse than that, people are overly willing to assume their little misguided understanding of the world is the only one that matters.   Having concerns is fine, not liking the idea of an embargo on a company without presenting evidence is also fine.  In fact most opinions on this one topic to me seem relatively normal, only with the exception that people are having issues accepting that opposing views are also just as valid.

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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More money for alcatel-lucent then?


 

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On 12/17/2018 at 9:47 PM, wANKER said:

I've not followed the news on this, but are there any actual reasons/examples again Huawei? Other than Because we said so

Yeah not really sure why everyone's picking on Huawei so much, it's a similar situation for any US based company, or, for that matter, any company in the Five Eyes Alliance. All are subject to the same kind of scrutiny and forced collaboration.

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I wouldn't say this is so much world vs Huawei as it is world vs the expansion of Chinese influence/intelligence networks. Huawei is just the victim in the middle here while trying to run a business, due to the laws they are subject to back home.

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24 minutes ago, WereCat said:

Updated with Huawei response

Sounds like Huawei is getting a little more than just annoyed by all this stuff recently.

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10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Sounds like Huawei is getting a little more than just annoyed by all this stuff recently.

Not surprising. They were quite annoyed when USA did the ban, now Japan is at it and other countries are joining as well without giving any evidence. It must be very unhealthy for their bussines.

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20 hours ago, leadeater said:

Sounds like Huawei is getting a little more than just annoyed by all this stuff recently.

I know I would when countries start rejecting my stuff one by one without explaining clearly why

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So how many countries need to say that Huawei is probably not a company that should be involved in any environments where National Secirty is a concern before people realize that a Chinese company, co-opted by the Chinese Government, does not belong in US and allied countries IT infrastructure?

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3 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

So how many countries need to say that Huawei is probably not a company that should be involved in any environments where National Secirty is a concern before people realize that a Chinese company, co-opted by the Chinese Government, does not belong in US and allied countries IT infrastructure?

It does not matter how many says it. What matters is what they are saying. It just needs to be one country providing solid evidence against them. 

 

It would also be nice if the same counties banning Huawei would also start banning things like equipment from US and UK companies because they have been proven (publicly) to be guilty of the same things Huawei are being accused of. 

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7 hours ago, LAwLz said:

It just needs to be one country providing solid evidence against them. 

No, it doesn’t. I’m sorry but National Security isn’t beholden to your desire to see the evidence personally. 

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7 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

No, it doesn’t. I’m sorry but Nationa Security isn’t beholden to your desire to see the evidence personally. 

Agreed. Much like Valve's VAC, telling people that you know of vulnerability X and criteria Y will only make people eliminate X and Y. Keeping it secret except to those who need-to-know makes security much more effective.

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19 hours ago, HarryNyquist said:

Agreed. Much like Valve's VAC, telling people that you know of vulnerability X and criteria Y will only make people eliminate X and Y. Keeping it secret except to those who need-to-know makes security much more effective.

Security by obscurity doesn't work, that's 1980's ideology that's been thoroughly shown not to work.

 

19 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

No, it doesn’t. I’m sorry but National Security isn’t beholden to your desire to see the evidence personally.

If your going to ban a company from an open market then that company can put up a legal challenge, best case for US gov would be a closed court hearing due to 'national security' but that doesn't mean they will win such a legal challenge.

 

Either the US has a open free market or it doesn't, then again if it isn't then what else isn't so free and open. It's concerning people are so ready to roll over to the 'national security' tag line zero questions asked. Honestly forum feels a bit bipolar at times, 6+ months of rants and raging at US gov for various things with statements that they should never be trusted then out comes the China/national security card and now they can be trusted without question, ?‍♂️.

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19 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

No, it doesn’t. I’m sorry but National Security isn’t beholden to your desire to see the evidence personally. 

You asked how many countries needed to ban Huawei before people would believe Huawei didn't belong in in national IT infrastrucutre.

I replied by saying it did not matter how many countries banned them. For me, it would take actual evidence, not just "trust us".

 

If the US suddenly banned Apple products would you just go "well, I totally believe the US has my best interest in mind and the ban is completely justified, no questions asked"?

Until I see some actual evidence, I do not believe this ban is justified. Innocent until proven guilty is a rule our entire legal system is based on.

 

 

Also, like I said before, the US are being extremely hypocritical. They themselves have been found secretly hijacking transports from Cisco, to modify the hardware to build in spying capabilities, into their own and other countries (including their allies) infrastructure. When all we have are empty words like "trust us" without any evidence, I believe the US government about as much as I believe for example China, or Russia. Hell, I'd even say I believe North Korea's government about as much as I believe the US one, since both have been found to repeatedly lie and abuse their positions over, and over again. That's why I want facts.

 

 

19 hours ago, HarryNyquist said:

Agreed. Much like Valve's VAC, telling people that you know of vulnerability X and criteria Y will only make people eliminate X and Y. Keeping it secret except to those who need-to-know makes security much more effective.

I think you need to look at some modern security standards. You will quickly realize that the absolute best security are built upon transparency where anyone can verify that things actually work the way they say they work. Proper security is not built upon trust, especially not trust from an entity known to constantly lie.

 

 

31 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Either the US has a open free market or it doesn't, then again if it isn't then what else isn't so free and open. It's concerning people are so ready to roll over to the 'national security' tag line zero questions asked. Honestly forum feels a bit bipolar at times, 6+ months of rants and raging at US gov for various things with statements that they should never be trusted then out comes the China/national security card and now they can be trusted without question, ?‍♂️. 

I think people have been watching a bit too much xenophobic and nationalistic media, to the point where countries like Russia and China can be blamed for anything and people just roll over going "do whatever it takes! to stop them!".

Hey, remember when it was revealed that the CIA had a ton of tools for masking their own attacks so that they appeared to have been orchestrated by China, Russia or other countries people are typically afraid of?

The US spying agencies have cried wolf a few too many times for me to believe them at face value anymore.

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19 hours ago, leadeater said:

Security by obscurity doesn't work, that's 1980's ideology that's been thoroughly shown not to work.

 

If your going to ban a company from an open market then that company can put up a legal challenge, best case for US gov would be a closed court hearing due to 'national security' but that doesn't mean they will win such a legal challenge.

 

Either the US has a open free market or it doesn't, then again if it isn't then what else isn't so free and open. It's concerning people are so ready to roll over to the 'national security' tag line zero questions asked. Honestly forum feels a bit bipolar at times, 6+ months of rants and raging at US gov for various things with statements that they should never be trusted then out comes the China/national security card and now they can be trusted without question, ?‍♂️.

I don't think the US has had either an open nor a free market for a long time.   Any court case would be just as dubious as the accusations, no evidence, legitimate reasons for not having the evidence published, legitimate reasons for wanting the evidence published, a president happy to over turn any court ruling be it public or not.  I can see this debate never ending.

 

There is room in this debate for healthy skepticism, I personally think if a security agency doesn't want huweu used in their countries infrastructure based on little more than a hunch/fear then so be it, it's not like there aren't other options.  I use my gut feeling to decide between two options a lot of the time when I lack the evidence,  and my decisions don't effect national security.   I think it's fair to accept the party line in this situation, I also understand people want to see evidence before they tow it though. 

 

 

 

EDIT: and just to the thread in general, there is so much going on here, so much truth and lies that if you think you understand it well enough to take a firm stand then you are wholly misguided, Even if you could read and retain all the information on the net about it, you still wouldn't have enough crucial information to make that kind of judgment if it was even possible.

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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1 hour ago, mr moose said:

There is room in this debate for healthy skepticism, I personally think if a security agency doesn't want huweu used in their countries infrastructure based on little more than a hunch/fear then so be it, it's not like there aren't other options. 

Like I've said before I don't at all mind if the US bans them, I only take issue with the organised attempt to remove them from the global market which we know has been driven by the US through the five eyes partnership and likely through other partnerships. I don't even have a problem with the five eyes partnership likes others do have, I can object to certain things that they do or happen like this.

 

Very rarely is the statement 'there are no such things as coincidences' not true, everyone bringing up a ban of the same company at the same time and isn't jointly organised, I'll eat my hat if that is actually the case (a hat made of salami just in case I'm wrong).

 

When it comes to the global market the preference should be towards evidence and facts, where as confined to your own state you can lean as much towards precaution as you like.

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I love my honor note 8 phone personally, and if the Chinese don't have anything better to do then browsing through all the hentai i look over the net, well each with their own i guess. Hmm... something tells me I'm blacklisted by the Chinese secret service aren't i?

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35 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Very rarely is the statement 'there are no such things as coincidences' not true, everyone bringing up a ban of the same company at the same time and isn't jointly organised, I'll eat my hat if that is actually the case (a hat made of salami just in case I'm wrong).

 

 

Absolutely it's not a coincidence.  Which is why the community is polarized.  The real question is is it warranted or just part of some desire to hurt Chinese trade?  That, I am afraid, is the question I refuse to accept any one hear can answer.   Hence why I err on the side of caution. be skeptical, what is it they keep telling us in times of international unrest, be alert not alarmed. 

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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15 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The real question is is it warranted or just part of some desire to hurt Chinese trade?

I'm not even sure if it's even specifically for that or other reasons, could be down to as simple as not wanting a Chinese company to get in closer more crucial relationships with other governments and in particular ones they deal with and already have those close relationships with. US holds a lot of power and influence in international politics (just look at the UN and NATO), for a wide variety of reasons, so any loss/reduction of that has to be considered rather important 

 

Could also be a more far reaching thing like not wanting a Chinese tech company in a market position where they will eventually be a market leader and start driving the technology industry in that sector and move from a company coping the best to being the best. A lot of the US defense and military superiority is built on the back of these types of companies and the fact they have the technological lead so that is another thing you don't want to give up. You can't be a market leader if you're not in the market.

 

I can't see it just being a simple as wanting to hurt trade or economic factors, that's a rather big sword you're willing to fall on if it goes wrong for something like that. Tariffs are far less politically damaging than banning a company, if you just want to keep them out of the market or make them an unappealing option a tariff will achieve that easily and is a heck of a lot easier to defend and justify.

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11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I'm not even sure if it's even specifically for that or other reasons, could be down to as simple as not wanting a Chinese company to get in closer more crucial relationships with other governments and in particular ones they deal with and already have those close relationships with. US holds a lot of power and influence in international politics (just look at the UN and NATO), for a wide variety of reasons, so any loss/reduction of that has to be considered rather important 

 

Could also be a more far reaching thing like not wanting a Chinese tech company in a market position where they will eventually be a market leader and start driving the technology industry in that sector and move from a company coping the best to being the best. A lot of the US defense and military superiority is built on the back of these types of companies and the fact they have the technological lead so that is another thing you don't want to give up. You can't be a market leader if you're not in the market.

 

I can't see it just being a simple as wanting to hurt trade or economic factors, that's a rather big sword you're willing to fall on if it goes wrong for something like that. Tariffs are far less politically damaging than banning a company, if you just want to keep them out of the market or make them an unappealing option a tariff will achieve that easily and is a heck of a lot easier to defend and justify.

It could be for all those reasons or none.  My point wasn't to bifurcate the issue, but to exemplify the futility of trying to resolve it to a motivation.

QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It could be for all those reasons or none.  My point wasn't to bifurcate the issue, but to exemplify the futility of trying to resolve it to a motivation.

Yea I more just mean it's unlikely to be a simple economic/trade thing since that's the very reason tariffs exist and the entire point of using them, it could be that but then why ignore a precision tool and use a hammer instead. We don't need Jeremy Clarkson's in international affairs ?

 

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