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Just noticed this about certain Ryzen motherboards...

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Go to solution Solved by KarathKasun,
Just now, A Random Dude said:

So what you're saying is that DDR4 3200+(OC) means that it won't run at 3200 unless you overclock it? And when the (OC) is not beside the speed, that means it will run at that speed from the moment you install it? And to overclock the RAM's with (OC) beside them, you need to enable XMP to make it run at those speeds?

 

Did I get all that right?

XMP is not a guarantee.  You may need to manually set timings.

 

(OC) means, in a nutshell, no guarantee it will operate at that speed.

1058325398_Screenshot(31).png.cd3a853740e2990084111b792b927d6d.png

This is from the majority of Ryzen motherboards I've been looking at. My question is about the (OC). Does that mean that particular RAM can be overclocked? And if the other RAM speeds do NOT have that (OC) after them, does that mean that you CANNOT overclock them on that motherboard? Is that what that (OC) means?

 

If that's what it means, NO WONDER people keep saying Ryzen CPU's like DDR4 3000+ RAM.

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That means your 3000MHz rated RAM won't run at max speed. Usually by default, all RAM is running at 2.1-2.6, you need to enable XMP to make it fun at advertised speed.

Main system: i7 8700k 5Ghz / Asus Prime Z370-A / Corsair Vengeance 2x8GB 3000Mhz / Asus TUF RTX3080 / EVGA 750W GQ / Fractal Design Meshify C

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24 minutes ago, A Random Dude said:

1058325398_Screenshot(31).png.cd3a853740e2990084111b792b927d6d.png

This is from the majority of Ryzen motherboards I've been looking at. My question is about the (OC). Does that mean that particular RAM can be overclocked? And if the other RAM speeds do NOT have that (OC) after them, does that mean that you CANNOT overclock them on that motherboard? Is that what that (OC) means?

 

If that's what it means, NO WONDER people keep saying Ryzen CPU's like DDR4 3000+ RAM.

Ryzen 1000 series is only specced for 2666 and Ryzen 2000 series is specced at 2933 AFAIK.

 

This is why RAM speeds above that are labeled as (oc), they are out of spec for the CPU.  You could probably run 3000-3200 still, but it may require manual tuning of timings.

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Officially, all processors support a maximum frequency, something they're thoroughly validated at.

For AMD Ryzen, I think the official frequency is 2667 Mhz when using one memory stick, and it's lower when populating a board with more memory sticks.. something like 2133 Mhz for 4 memory sticks inserted. 

AMD's not the only one like I said, Intel does the same... for example officially, 9900k supports maximum 2666 Mhz ... scroll down at memory: https://ark.intel.com/products/186605/Intel-Core-i9-9900K-Processor-16M-Cache-up-to-5-00-GHz-

 

This doesn't mean it won't work at faster frequencies it just mean they can't guarantee or say it will definitely work, how much above these official frequencies you can go depends on how well the motherboard is designed, the number of slots, and not the least the type of memory sticks you have and the voltage you give them and the timings you set.

So in the case of that MSI board, they're simply saying that frequencies above 2666 Mhz are more or less considered by them overclocking and they don't promise reaching those frequencies, it will depend on the memory sticks.

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4 minutes ago, mariushm said:

Officially, all processors support a maximum frequency, something they're thoroughly validated at.

For AMD Ryzen, I think the official frequency is 2667 Mhz when using one memory stick, and it's lower when populating a board with more memory sticks.. something like 2133 Mhz for 4 memory sticks inserted. 

AMD's not the only one like I said, Intel does the same... for example officially, 9900k supports maximum 2666 Mhz ... scroll down at memory: https://ark.intel.com/products/186605/Intel-Core-i9-9900K-Processor-16M-Cache-up-to-5-00-GHz-

The max clock spec is for two memory modules in a dual channel system and four in a quad channel system.

 

The speed drops by one notch (2400 for 1000 series and 2666 for 2000 series) with number of dual rank modules = number of channels, or number single rank modules = double the number of channels.

 

It drops two notches (2133 or 2400) for number dual rank modules = double the number of channels.

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49 minutes ago, A Random Dude said:

1058325398_Screenshot(31).png.cd3a853740e2990084111b792b927d6d.png

This is from the majority of Ryzen motherboards I've been looking at. My question is about the (OC). Does that mean that particular RAM can be overclocked? And if the other RAM speeds do NOT have that (OC) after them, does that mean that you CANNOT overclock them on that motherboard? Is that what that (OC) means?

 

If that's what it means, NO WONDER people keep saying Ryzen CPU's like DDR4 3000+ RAM.

i've troubleshooted 4 ryzen boards, a b350 and a x470 that only did 2933 no matter what, a x470 that barely did 3200 and refused to oc further, and a x470 taichi that did 4000. There was noticeable differences between both 2933 and 3200 and 3200 to 4000. 

 

But man ryzen is a slight pain, there's no way to know which board pushes what speed even based on the QVL, and the testing the ram to run at close to stock speed can take a couple of hours.

5950x 1.33v 5.05 4.5 88C 195w ll R20 12k ll drp4 ll x570 dark hero ll gskill 4x8gb 3666 14-14-14-32-320-24-2T (zen trfc)  1.45v 45C 1.15v soc ll evga non-3090 tie ftw3 1905 0.8v 65C 270w (double fps of 1080ti) ll samsung 970 500gb nvme os ll sandisk 4tb ssd ll all nf12/14 fans ll tt gt10 case ll evga g2 1300w ll w10 pro ll 34GN850B ll x27 ll PA272w

 

9900k 1.36v 5.1avx 4.9ring 85C 195w (daily) 1.02v 4.3ghz 80w 50C R20 temps score=5500 ll D15 ll Z390 taichi ult 1.60 bios ll gskill 4x8gb 14-14-14-30-280-20 ddr3666  bdie 1.45v 45C 1.22sa/1.18 io  ll EVGA non-30 tie XC 1830//7600 0.85v 210w ll  8x nf12/14 fans 2x samsung 860 evo 500gb raid 0 ll 500gb nvme 970 evo ll Corsair graphite 780T ll EVGA P2 1200w ll Windows 10 Pro ll NEC PA242w (movie, work mon dying) 1080p 60hzll Predator X27 4k144 hdr (using at 4:4:4 98 fan is dying)

 

 

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5 minutes ago, xg32 said:

i've troubleshooted 4 ryzen boards, a b350 and a x470 that only did 2933 no matter what, a x470 that barely did 3200 and refused to oc further, and a x470 taichi that did 4000. There was noticeable differences between both 2933 and 3200 and 3200 to 4000. 

 

But man ryzen is a slight pain, there's no way to know which board pushes what speed even based on the QVL, and the testing the ram to run at close to stock speed can take a couple of hours.

 

The actual memory chips on the sticks also matter, the voltage you run the sticks at (if you keep them at 1.2v or 1.35v the may not overclock much), the timings matter (get timings looser and you may get higher frequencies), even where you place the memory stick can matter at high frequencies.

Don't generalize and blame the cpu, others can easily get 3600mhz or more with ryzen. 

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6 minutes ago, mariushm said:

 

The actual memory chips on the sticks also matter, the voltage you run the sticks at (if you keep them at 1.2v or 1.35v the may not overclock much), the timings matter (get timings looser and you may get higher frequencies), even where you place the memory stick can matter at high frequencies.

Don't generalize and blame the cpu, others can easily get 3600mhz or more with ryzen. 

they were all b-die, some of them just went for cheaper boards on combos, i'm just saying it's not guaranteed even if it's on the QVL, it's just more trouble compared to intel still even after the improvements made in the 2nd gen. I'm blaming the motherboards more than the chips, but it is really limited to the top tier boards past 3200.

5950x 1.33v 5.05 4.5 88C 195w ll R20 12k ll drp4 ll x570 dark hero ll gskill 4x8gb 3666 14-14-14-32-320-24-2T (zen trfc)  1.45v 45C 1.15v soc ll evga non-3090 tie ftw3 1905 0.8v 65C 270w (double fps of 1080ti) ll samsung 970 500gb nvme os ll sandisk 4tb ssd ll all nf12/14 fans ll tt gt10 case ll evga g2 1300w ll w10 pro ll 34GN850B ll x27 ll PA272w

 

9900k 1.36v 5.1avx 4.9ring 85C 195w (daily) 1.02v 4.3ghz 80w 50C R20 temps score=5500 ll D15 ll Z390 taichi ult 1.60 bios ll gskill 4x8gb 14-14-14-30-280-20 ddr3666  bdie 1.45v 45C 1.22sa/1.18 io  ll EVGA non-30 tie XC 1830//7600 0.85v 210w ll  8x nf12/14 fans 2x samsung 860 evo 500gb raid 0 ll 500gb nvme 970 evo ll Corsair graphite 780T ll EVGA P2 1200w ll Windows 10 Pro ll NEC PA242w (movie, work mon dying) 1080p 60hzll Predator X27 4k144 hdr (using at 4:4:4 98 fan is dying)

 

 

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7 hours ago, PopsicleHustler said:

That means your 3000MHz rated RAM won't run at max speed. Usually by default, all RAM is running at 2.1-2.6, you need to enable XMP to make it fun at advertised speed.

So what you're saying is that DDR4 3200+(OC) means that it won't run at 3200 unless you overclock it? And when the (OC) is not beside the speed, that means it will run at that speed from the moment you install it? And to overclock the RAM's with (OC) beside them, you need to enable XMP to make it run at those speeds?

 

Did I get all that right?

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Just now, A Random Dude said:

So what you're saying is that DDR4 3200+(OC) means that it won't run at 3200 unless you overclock it? And when the (OC) is not beside the speed, that means it will run at that speed from the moment you install it? And to overclock the RAM's with (OC) beside them, you need to enable XMP to make it run at those speeds?

 

Did I get all that right?

XMP is not a guarantee.  You may need to manually set timings.

 

(OC) means, in a nutshell, no guarantee it will operate at that speed.

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4 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

(OC) means, in a nutshell, no guarantee it will operate at that speed.

So when there is no (OC) beside the speed, in a nutshell, there is a guarantee it will run at that speed from the moment you install it, right?

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Just now, A Random Dude said:

So when there is no (OC) beside the speed, in a nutshell, there is a guarantee it will run at that speed from the moment you install it, right?

Yes.

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Just now, KarathKasun said:

Yes.

So how do you determine which motherboard can overclock a certain Ryzen CPU? I know this is an entirely different question, but I don't know how to determine this.

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2 minutes ago, A Random Dude said:

So how do you determine which motherboard can overclock a certain Ryzen CPU? I know this is an entirely different question, but I don't know how to determine this.

Any B350/B450/X370/X470 board can overclock any Ryzen CPU in a technical sense.

 

The quality of the VRM determines how far you will be able to OC reliably, in addition to several other factors like board layout and design.

 

Buildzoid on YouTube has breakdowns of the VRM quality of several boards.

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1 minute ago, KarathKasun said:

The quality of the VRM determines how far you will be able to OC reliably, in addition to several other factors like board layout and design.

I see. So how do you determine the quality of the VRM? And what's the difference between a board layout suitable for overclocking the CPU vs a board layout not suitable for overclocking the CPU? And the difference between a board design suitable for overclocking the CPU vs a board design not suitable for overclocking the CPU?

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Just now, A Random Dude said:

I see. So how do you determine the quality of the VRM? And what's the difference between a board layout suitable for overclocking the CPU vs a board layout not suitable for overclocking the CPU? And the difference between a board design suitable for overclocking the CPU vs a board design not suitable for overclocking the CPU?

Better overclocking boards have an external clock generator in general.

 

For the VRM layout, watch Buildzoids videos.  They go through design and what to look for visually as well as what some boards do to make the VRM look better than it really is.

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2 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

Buildzoid

Actually Hardcore Overclocking?

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6 hours ago, KarathKasun said:

Yep, thats his channel.

After watching only a couple of minutes of one of his random videos, I've already learned that there are only 3 chip makers. Micron, Hynix and Samsung. And basically Team Group, G. Skill, Kingston, Corsair, Crucial, ADATA, etc, etc... All these vendors just go to either Micron, Hynix or Samsung, buy a bunch of chips from them, bin them, test them, put them on memory sticks, program the profiles, put them into packaging and sell them.

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1 minute ago, A Random Dude said:

After watching only a couple of minutes of one of his random videos, I've already learned that there are only 3 chip makers. Micron, Hynix and Samsung. And basically Team Group, G. Skill, Kingston, Corsair, Crucial, ADATA, etc, etc... All these vendors just go to either Micron, Hynix or Samsung, buy a bunch of chips from them, bend them, test them, put them on memory sticks, program the profiles, put them into packaging and sell them.

Thats the memory market.

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6 hours ago, KarathKasun said:

Thats the memory market.

Looks like I'm watching Buildzoid for the next few hours. Thanks. This will change the motherboards and RAM I put into my future builds for sure. I currently have Patriot RAM paired with Kingston Hyper X Fury in my current gaming PC. I wonder if they're both Micron or Hynix or Samsung because they have seemed to work as if they're the same for a couple of years now. Not sure if they're optimized or anything either, I just installed them both and never messed with the timings or anything.

1772363334_Screenshot(33).png.2f9aa6ab739b26e46fe3fdf1e07f34a0.png

Do you know if I need to change or match these up for them to perform better or anything? Or should I just leave them like they are?

 

Also, I just watched another minute of that same random Buildzoid video I clicked on and he said something about die revisions decide basically how well your overclock will be on your RAM. In less than 3 minutes of his video, I've already learned what seems like years of knowledge.

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8 hours ago, KarathKasun said:

The max clock spec is for two memory modules in a dual channel system and four in a quad channel system.

 

The speed drops by one notch (2400 for 1000 series and 2666 for 2000 series) with number of dual rank modules = number of channels, or number single rank modules = double the number of channels.

 

It drops two notches (2133 or 2400) for number dual rank modules = double the number of channels.

Is this still the case?

 

I recall it was like that at the launch of Ryzen, when its ram compatibility was pretty bad. Do AMD (and Intel for that matter) de-rate the supported speeds as the number of rank per channel increases?

 

1 hour ago, A Random Dude said:

So when there is no (OC) beside the speed, in a nutshell, there is a guarantee it will run at that speed from the moment you install it, right?

I'd have to go "not necessarily" here. If the ram was programmed for the higher speeds in a JEDEC compliant way, yes. Most fast modules are still programmed with a low "SPD" speed and a faster "XMP" one, so it is still a kinda overclock as timings may be more aggressive than JEDEC spec.

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The ram compatibility was bad because the processors had some badly chosen defaults for memory timings inside them... they worked well for some memory chips AMD tested with but turned out to be bad for other chips when combined with high frequencies.

 

Since the launch, AMD has released several microcode updates (the AGESA stuff) which is basically software patches for the processor, that are "uploaded" into the processor when you update the bios or when you insert the cpu into a motherboard with a bios that has a newer version of this microcode than the one inside the cpu.  So those parameters and memory related parameters have been changed and compatibility with memory has improved a lot.

Ryzen 2xxx series further improved the memory controller and officially supports a higher default frequency, 2933 mhz.  Again, that's guaranteed only with one memory per channel and of the single rank kind. With double rank memories or with more than 2 memory sticks, it may work, it may not (in which case you'd have to lower to 2667 Mhz)

Above these official frequencies, the memory may still work but it's considered "unofficial", not guaranteed... so basically in the same category as overclocking. 

 

They make these distinctions so that some company somewhere won't be able to sue them for something like "hey, we set the frequency to 3200 mhz and once every 10 days when i heat up my coffee in the microwave oven near the pc, my spreadsheet crashes because one byte is read incorrectly from ram so your processor is obviously faulty, give me 1 million dollars"

 

 

So basically, now the processors are much more compatible with memory, if you test again the Ryzen 1xxx processor with a memory it didn't like in the past, it most likely will work now just fine.

 

 

 

 

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For my B450 Tomahawk, I purchased my 3200 CL14 memory based on this info. And had to set the speed and timing manually, but other than that all went well. I chose a 16gig B-Die kit (2x8gig). Supposedly the dual rank kits are faster, but for B-die those start at 32gig kits.

 

Samsung B-die are kinda setting the standard it seems as that's what most ppl turn to just to be 'sure' it works. But if you read the info the other samsung chips as well as hynix chips will work at various speeds and motherboard BIOS AGESA version. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, porina said:

Is this still the case?

Yes.

 

In overclocking the same rule also applies.

1x single rank per channel hits higher speeds than 2x single rank per channel.

2x single rank per channel gets about the same speeds you can hit with 1x dual rank per channel.

2x dual rank per channel has the lowest OC potential.

 

This is because driving more chips puts more electrical load on the memory controller.

Some of the highest overclocking motherboards have only one slot per memory channel because that design produces less interference on the memory bus at extremely high speeds

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