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DX12 & Vulkan must be a must going forward.

Khader87
8 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

There is literally no reason for either company to stop development of their API.

I mean, there isn't a need for DX when Vulkan is just better and easier to work with. MS obviously won't though, since they don't want you using a PS4 or different OS.

I use Arch btw

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1 minute ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Technically GeForce 500 is the oldest compatible DX12 GPU, it just has a lower feature level. AMD's compatibility only goes back to 1st Gen GCN, and it also seems to have a lower feature level. 

I was going off of their whitelist: https://www.geforce.co.uk/hardware/technology/dx12/supported-gpus

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Just now, lond.en said:

there isn't a need for DX when Vulkan is just better and easier to work with.

Vulkan isn't better. It's just an alternative. It's also not easier to work with if you're not experienced with other API that are significantly like Vulkan, which many aren't.

 

2 minutes ago, lond.en said:

MS obviously won't though, since they don't want you using a PS4 or different OS.

GNMX is not all that different from D3D 11 from a developer perspective, so Microsoft doesn't have a leg up there.

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And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

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Something is wrong with this world.

 

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Everybody turns to dust.

 

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5 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Vulkan isn't better. It's just an alternative. It's also not easier to work with if you're not experienced with other API that are significantly like Vulkan, which many aren't.

 

GNMX is not all that different from D3D 11 from a developer perspective, so Microsoft doesn't have a leg up there.

Vulkan saves time though because it works better on a lot of platforms, which is my point. If Vulkan worked on Xbox One and DirectX wasn't being held up by legacy, I doubt anyone would use DirectX.

I use Arch btw

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4 minutes ago, lond.en said:

Vulkan saves time though because it works better on a lot of platforms, which is my point. If Vulkan worked on Xbox One and DirectX wasn't being held up by legacy, I doubt anyone would use DirectX.

Vulkan has not proved itself to be any better. Just different. The only advantage it has is that it caters to some insignificant operating systems, as far as game developers are concerned. There is no reason for Microsoft to move away from Direct X, there is no real world benefit.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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26 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Yeah, pretty much.

 

A lot of the set pieces in DOOM are in closed spaces.

The saved game I was testing once I put the custom loop on the 2950X was outdoors.

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3 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Vulkan has not proved itself to be any better. Just different. The only advantage it has is that it caters to some insignificant operating systems, as far as game developers are concerned. There is no reason for Microsoft to move away from Direct X, there is no real world benefit.

Phones and tablets...

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4 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Vulkan has not proved itself to be any better. Just different. The only advantage it has is that it caters to some insignificant operating systems, as far as game developers are concerned. There is no reason for Microsoft to move away from Direct X, there is no real world benefit.

As far as executives are concerned, sure. I'm pretty sure most developers themselves don't consider Android and Linux and more insignificant. There very much is a benefit to not having to work with 15 different APIs just to develop a game.

I use Arch btw

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Just now, ewitte said:

Phones and tablets...

 

Just now, lond.en said:

I'm pretty sure most developers themselves don't consider Android and Linux and more insignificant.

Android as a market doesn't give a shit about the type of games that benefit from Vulkan (most of the gaming market right now doesn't).

Linux is nigh irrelevant to the gaming industry as a target platform.

 

Right now, if it isn't:

Xbox

PS4

Windows 7+

Switch

3DS

 

Most developers don't care, and what few that do, only have enough follow through for a lazy port.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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3 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

 

Android as a market doesn't give a shit about the type of games that benefit from Vulkan (most of the gaming market right now doesn't).

Linux is nigh irrelevant to the gaming industry as a target platform.

 

Right now, if it isn't:

Xbox

PS4

Windows 7+

Switch

3DS

 

Most developers don't care, and what few that do, only have enough follow through for a lazy port.

Exactly... if MS dropped DX then Xbox, PS4, Windows, and Switch could all just support Vulkan and a lot less time and effort would be spent working with a bunch of different graphics APIs, which would definitely be beneficial to devs and execs.

 

It's... pretty clearly better in this regard. Are you like a DX fanboy? Is that a thing?

I use Arch btw

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Just now, lond.en said:

if MS dropped DX then Xbox, PS4, Windows, and Switch could all just support Vulkan and a lot less time and effort would be spent working with a bunch of different graphics APIs

Sony uses GNM and GNMX. The best you have is OSX and PS4 not supporting Vulkan, PS4 being the larger seller than Xbox and OSX being far more widely used by consumers.

 

There is still no reason to support Vulkan over DX. Developers could also stop wasting time and effort trying to support irrelevant platforms.

2 minutes ago, lond.en said:

t's... pretty clearly better in this regard

No, it's not. If it were, we'd see Sony using it as well

 

4 minutes ago, lond.en said:

Are you like a DX fanboy? Is that a thing?

No, I'm just not trying to desperately incorrectly rationalize why developers don't care about Linux.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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4 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Sony uses GNM and GNMX. The best you have is OSX and PS4 not supporting Vulkan, PS4 being the larger seller than Xbox and OSX being far more widely used by consumers.

 

There is still no reason to support Vulkan over DX. Developers could also stop wasting time and effort trying to support irrelevant platforms.

No, it's not. If it were, we'd see Sony using it as well

 

No, I'm just not trying to desperately incorrectly rationalize why developers don't care about Linux.

I understand devs don't care about us, and I understand why. My push for Vulkan isn't a Linux thing (although it would help us with compatibility layers). It sucks, but I get it. Switch supports Vulkan though, Windows supports Vulkan, If Xbox supported Vulkan things would be a lot easier. So now you're working with two or maybe three APIs (Vulkan, GNMX and Metal) rather than also having to add DX into the mix. That is very clearly an advantage, it would very clearly be better in that regard. Plus, mobile gaming beats out console and PC gaming, so yeah I imagine execs care about it, and Vulkan also supports phones. Similarly, GNM and GNMX don't have reason to exist. Just cut out some of the fat and everything could be a lot leaner.

I use Arch btw

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17 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

 

Android as a market doesn't give a shit about the type of games that benefit from Vulkan (most of the gaming market right now doesn't).

Linux is nigh irrelevant to the gaming industry as a target platform.

 

 

The point was Android has more Vulkan titles than PC (which isn't really all that much anyway).

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9 minutes ago, lond.en said:

Exactly... if MS dropped DX then Xbox, PS4, Windows, and Switch could all just support Vulkan and a lot less time and effort would be spent working with a bunch of different graphics APIs, which would definitely be beneficial to devs and execs.

 

It's... pretty clearly better in this regard. Are you like a DX fanboy? Is that a thing?

Here's the thing though with Vulkan: who offers you support? As far as I can tell about Khronos, it's just a group of industry members who get together to agree on something. Support appears community based, either by people in the industry members willing to offer support or hoping someone from StackExchange knows enough about the API. This kind of support is wishy washy at best.

 

If you use DirectX or Metal, a single company developed it, know it intimately, and they can help you better than someone who just knows the standard. Similarly with Sony and their API for the PS4.

 

I would bet a lot of developers want professional support over community support. StackExchange is fine for a common "oh herp-derp" problem, but not when my app on a Cortex M3 is causing double faults for no apparent reason.

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1 minute ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Here's the thing though with Vulkan: who offers you support? As far as I can tell about Khronos, it's just a group of industry members who get together to agree on something. Support appears community based, either by people in the industry members willing to offer support or hoping someone from StackExchange knows enough about the API. This kind of support is wishy washy at best.

 

If you use DirectX or Metal, a single company developed it, know it intimately, and they can help you better than someone who just knows the standard. Similarly with Sony and their API for the PS4.

 

I would bet a lot of developers want professional support over community support. StackExchange is fine for a common "oh herp-derp" problem, but not when my app on a Cortex M3 is causing double faults for no apparent reason.

I mean, okay point but thousands of devs have worked on thousands of Vulkan games for multiple systems and I haven't heard of anyone complaining. Either way, let's say DX and and Sony's trash didn't exist and Xbox and PS4 used Vulkan, so then all of the major systems (Windows, Xbox, PS4, and Switch) could be worked on with one graphics API. That is very clearly a huge advantage, and I would imagine that many devs would want that.

I use Arch btw

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13 minutes ago, lond.en said:

That is very clearly a huge advantage

No, it's not. The more hardware you support, the more potential for issues you have. Especially when systems like the PS4 and Xbox One use heavily modified variants of other operating systems. Simply put, Vulkan on Orbis would not be as efficient as GNMX, let alone GNM. Nor would be as good as Direct X on Xbox.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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5 hours ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Mostly on AMD hardware because AMD didn't bother to implement support of DX11 deferred contexts. Aside from that, if you can keep the GPU at 100% utilization with DX11, DX12 is not going to help because you've already saturated the GPU with work.

 

Also without a profile taking a look at what's going on in the game, literally anything can be said about why the game uses so much CPU.

I do not believe its quite that simple as a momentary CPU lag causes stutter while not necessarily showing up in real-time GPU utilisation unless you are monitoring it very quickly.  I see some very odd performance on Odyssey at 4K 50Hz, stutters and jumps to 100% CPU in busy areas.  While sure the GPU is close to 100% too, I don't think it tells the whole story.

There's also the potential that rewriting an engine in DX12 could also more efficiently use the GPU.  Its really hard for us to say if some of that GPU utilisation is effectively being wasted or not, I'm almost certain it is on the CPU.  Maybe they could further optimise for DX11 too, I don't really know, but logically DX12 has more potential for improvements, especially alongside things like DLSS.

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21 minutes ago, lond.en said:

I mean, okay point but thousands of devs have worked on thousands of Vulkan games for multiple systems and I haven't heard of anyone complaining. Either way, let's say DX and and Sony's trash didn't exist and Xbox and PS4 used Vulkan, so then all of the major systems (Windows, Xbox, PS4, and Switch) could be worked on with one graphics API. That is very clearly a huge advantage, and I would imagine that many devs would want that.

A quick glance at DX12, Metal, and Vulkan in terms of programming models makes me believe that there's actually very little difference between all of them. That is, they all have the same concepts. Everyone is on board with doing the same things, but everyone has their own way of going about it.

 

EDIT: Anyway, it's like this, there are ways you can make your application agnostic to an API to the point where all you have to do is plug in the API and it should just work (or should just work with a little bit of elbow grease). If back-ends can plug-and-play databases and front-ends with ease, why can't games and API?

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Just now, M.Yurizaki said:

A quick glance at DX12, Metal, and Vulkan in terms of programming models makes me believe that there's actually very little difference between all of them. That is, they all have the same concepts. Everyone is on board with doing the same things, but everyone has their own way of going about it.

Yeah for the most part. It's just that MS and Apple and Sony want dominance so they can't just play nice. Which is why I'm pushing for a standard, whether or not it be Vulkan, but I'm pretty sure Vulkan is the most possible way. Nintendo have already embraced it because they're not tootally greedy, so there may be hope.

I use Arch btw

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1 minute ago, lond.en said:

It's just that MS and Apple and Sony want dominance so they can't just play nice

Again, GNMX development is not far off from D3D 11 development from a game dev's point of view. Yurizaki's notion of

 

4 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

there are ways you can make your application agnostic to an API to the point where all you have to do is plug in the API and it should just work (or should just work with a little bit of elbow grease).

is already the case for GNMX on PS4.

Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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2 minutes ago, lond.en said:

Yeah for the most part. It's just that MS and Apple and Sony want dominance so they can't just play nice. Which is why I'm pushing for a standard, whether or not it be Vulkan, but I'm pretty sure Vulkan is the most possible way. Nintendo have already embraced it because they're not tootally greedy, so there may be hope.

Or maybe they've already built an API that works well with their systems and they don't want to support a third party API because any changes to it may require a ton of bureaucracy.

 

8 minutes ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

There's also the potential that rewriting an engine in DX12 could also more efficiently use the GPU.  Its really hard for us to say if some of that GPU utilisation is effectively being wasted or not, I'm almost certain it is on the CPU.  Maybe they could further optimise for DX11 too, I don't really know, but logically DX12 has more potential for improvements, especially alongside things like DLSS.

I want to reiterate that DX12 and likely Vulkan do not look like easy to work with API. It would be like taking a C# app and porting it to C. Sure there's potential there for performance improvements, but the training wheels are off. You have to really understand not only your application, but all of the utilities, constructs ideas, and runtime features of C# to see whether or not how to deal with it in C, because C lacks a lot of things that C# does.

 

At worst if you don't have a firm grasp of what you're working with, you basically get zero performance improvement or worse.

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Yeah it was always a given DX12/Vulkan would be a lot harder for developers.  I'd imagine they would have to branch for different CPUs and GPUs to be optimal for all configurations.

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7 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Or maybe they've already built an API that works well with their systems and they don't want to support a third party API because any changes to it may require a ton of bureaucracy.

Eeh, fair enough but I highly doubt it would be hard for MS and Sony to support Vulkan as well if it really came down to it, or even just starting with next gen if it proves to be a difficult task. Either way, not having a greedy company dictating what I can and can't do with my machine is exactly why I don't play on console and use Linux.

I use Arch btw

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Just now, lond.en said:

Eeh, fair enough but I highly doubt it would be hard for MS and Sony to support Vulkan as well if it really came down to it, or even just starting with next gen if it proves to be a difficult task.

It wouldn't, but unless the developers start complaining that what either of them have doesn't work, they're not going to budge. If you provide hardware, your primary customer is not the end user, it's the developers, because those developers will bring the end users to you.

 

The only reason why the PlayStation 4 did so well was because Sony finally swallowed their pride and asked what the developers wanted. Not tell the developers "this is what you get, deal with it." (Well, I guess Microsoft's less than stellar announcement helped too)

 

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Just now, M.Yurizaki said:

It wouldn't, but unless the developers start complaining that what either of them have doesn't work, they're not going to budge. If you provide hardware, your primary customer is not the end user, it's the developers, because those developers will bring the end users to you.

 

The only reason why the PlayStation 4 did so well was because Sony finally swallowed their pride and asked what the developers wanted. Not tell the developers "this is what you get, deal with it." (Well, I guess Microsoft's less than stellar announcement helped too)

 

Very true, and I don't expect anything to change myself. It's a pipe dream, I don't actually expect to see it to fruition, at least not any time soon. However, in a perfect world, Vulkan being the primary graphics API for every system would be a nice touch. 

I use Arch btw

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