B450 and X470 have same amount of phases?

[NotAVAP]

Hey guys,

I'm building a mini ITX setup and I'm currently deciding between b450 motherboard

 

https://de.pcpartpicker.com/product/gBWfrH/msi-b450i-gaming-plus-ac-mini-itx-am4-motherboard-b450i-gaming-plus-ac

 

 and an x470 motherboard

 

 https://de.pcpartpicker.com/product/Z922FT/asus-strix-x470-i-gaming-mini-itx-am4-motherboard-strix-x470-i-gaming

 

I got to the point where I was comparing the VRM's and noticed that both of those boards had 8 phases (or at least I hope so, I don't know much about overclocking and CPU power delivery).

 

Is this even possible that a b450 mobo has the same amount of phases as an x470 mobo?

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, NotAVAP said:

Is this even possible that a b450 mobo has the same amount of phases as an x470 mobo?

very common on lower tier X470, X370, Z370 boards.

 

there is also the issue of "fat" phases and true phases

[NunoLava1998]

Weird, but i'd get the X470 Strix. The Strix is a pretty high end X470 motherboard and the B450 board you linked is certainly worse

[NunoLava1998]

1 minute ago, GoldenLag said:

very common on lower tier X470, X370, Z370 boards.

 

there is also the issue of "fat" phases and true phases

It's a STRIX...

[GoldenLag]

Just now, NunoLava1998 said:

It's a STRIX...

its also ITX...... and you are comparing 2 different brands. MSI is known for better 400 series boards, and ASUS is known for more mediocre ones.

[NotAVAP]

5 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

there is also the issue of "fat" phases and true phases

I'm sorry if I sound stupid but could you explain to me what's the difference between those two?

[mariushm]

There is no obligation to use a specific number of phases with a specific chipset.

You can have 4 phase VRM with a x370 chipset, just as you can have a 6 or 8 or even 10 phase VRM with a B450 chipset.

 

Why? for example, some manufacturer may want to keep the price of a x370 board down, while adding features like two usb type-c on the back IO panel, 7.1 audio and optical/coax out instead of just 5.1 (3 analogue out), two pci-e x16 slots for SLI, pay for SLI licensing etc etc ... keep the price down by keeping the VRM cheaper. 

 

In addition to this, you can't rely on just counting the number of inductors and say the motherboard has X phases.

Some motherboards (Asus) parallels  mosfets and inductors so there's 4 phase drivers, but two sets of mosfets and inductors in parallel, making it seem like 8 phases

There's also use of phase doublers, making boards with 3, 4 or 5 phases, doubled into what looks to be 6, 8 or 10 phase ... but they're not really exactly as good as genuine 6,8,10 phases... close enough though.

Then you can have boards with 4 phases but which use high end power stages that are normally used in high end boards, and there's budget boards with 4 phases that use separate high and low mosfets with higher Rds(on), higher losses etc etc... 

 

Considering the AM4 chips don't consume more than around 160w... even if you round up to 200 watts, you're looking at 200w / 12v = 16A  and 200w / 1.4v = 140A  spread across four phases or more... that's 4A on 12v per mosfet , and 35A on mosfets typically rated for 50-60A or more.

 

Yeah, you'd want 6 phases or more for overclocking an 8 core, but provided the VRM uses high quality components you can overclock even with 4 phases.

[Jurrunio]

MSI B450-I has stronger VRM overall (6 CPU core phase, rated for 60A per phase), while Asus X470-I has 2/3 of that (6 CPU core phase, rated for 40A per phase). Only reason to buy the ROG board is for Aura sync (which I don't use) and offset voltage mode (need this to use PBO, Ryzen X chips' factory OC function, to the maximum capabilities). You can still do static overclock on the B450-I, so don't see a reason to convince myself to recommend the ROG board.

 

10 minutes ago, NunoLava1998 said:

It's a STRIX...

People like you is how brands like Asus and Razer get to survive. They can simply use fame to sell otherwise mediocre products for a high price.

 

Strix graphics cards are great, boards, not always. X470-F, great board (overlook the price), B450-F/B450-E, just a reskinned B450 TUF Plus, which itself is a B450 Plus with bigger heatsinks.

 

6 minutes ago, mariushm said:

just as you can have a 6 or 8 or even 10 phase VRM with a B450 chipset.

no one did that so far

[GoldenLag]

Just now, NotAVAP said:

I'm sorry if I sound stupid but could you explain to me what's the difference between those two?

easiest way to explain it is that the number of phases is the phase controller. an example would be a 4+2 phase. this means traditionally you can only have 6 different rails where the power is delivered. However you can use something called a Phase doubler to be able to double up the rails to the VRM and doubling the Phases. In this example this would be 12 rails to the CPU. this configuration would be 12 True phases and 12 power rails.

 

there is another way of doing this and that is just simply doubling the rails without using phase doublers and you end up with 12 powerrails since you doubled up the components. however you only have 6 phases and 12 powerrails. this is what i call a "fat" phase, while it is similar to a true 12 phase as described above it brings some downsides with it. 

 

 

 

 

note: i dont know what all the components are actually called. 

[NunoLava1998]

1 minute ago, Jurrunio said:

People like you is how brands like Asus and Razer get to survive. They can simply use fame to sell otherwise mediocre products for a high price.

wtf shut up

[NotAVAP]

3 minutes ago, mariushm said:

There is no obligation to use a specific number of phases with a specific chipset.

You can have 4 phase VRM with a x370 chipset, just as you can have a 6 or 8 or even 10 phase VRM with a B450 chipset.

 

In addition to this, you can't rely on just counting the number of inductors and say the motherboard has X phases.

Some motherboards (Asus) parallels  mosfets and inductors so there's 4 phase drivers, but two sets of mosfets and inductors in parallel, making it seem like 8 phases

There's also use of phase doublers, making boards with 3, 4 or 5 phases, doubled into what looks to be 6, 8 or 10 phase ... but they're not really exactly as good as genuine 6,8,10 phases... close enough though.

Then you can have boards with 4 phases but which use high end power stages that are normally used in high end boards, and there's budget boards with 4 phases that use separate high and low mosfets with higher Rds(on), higher losses etc etc... 

 

Considering the AM4 chips don't consume more than around 160w... even if you round up to 200 watts, you're looking at 200w / 12v = 16A  and 200w / 1.4v = 140A  spread across four phases or more... that's 4A on 12v per mosfet , and 35A on mosfets typically rated for 50-60A or more.

 

Yeah, you'd want 6 phases or more for overclocking an 8 core, but provided the VRM uses high quality components you can overclock even with 4 phases.

You can't even imagine how helpful this was to me, thank you!

 

Could I exploit your knowledge a little bit more? Which of these two motherboards would you chose? Price difference doesn't matter to me. It would be paired with a 2700x.

[Brooksie359]

19 minutes ago, NotAVAP said:

Hey guys,

I'm building a mini ITX setup and I'm currently deciding between b450 motherboard

 

https://de.pcpartpicker.com/product/gBWfrH/msi-b450i-gaming-plus-ac-mini-itx-am4-motherboard-b450i-gaming-plus-ac

 

 and an x470 motherboard

 

 https://de.pcpartpicker.com/product/Z922FT/asus-strix-x470-i-gaming-mini-itx-am4-motherboard-strix-x470-i-gaming

 

I got to the point where I was comparing the VRM's and noticed that both of those boards had 8 phases (or at least I hope so, I don't know much about overclocking and CPU power delivery).

 

Is this even possible that a b450 mobo has the same amount of phases as an x470 mobo?

 This will explain everything you need to know about the best motherboards in the AM4 line up. 

[NotAVAP]

6 minutes ago, NunoLava1998 said:

wtf shut up

I think that @Jurrunio has a point but that doesn't matter, everyone prefers something different. Take for an example Apple's sheeps...

7 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

note: i dont know what all the components are actually called. 

Thanks for the help, I should research more about this stuff.

 

The only thing that's blocking me from doing it is the language barrier... I understand the "physics part" of it pretty well (or at least I hope so ) but my knowledge of English terminology could be much better...

 

Either way thank you for helping me again.

[mariushm]

3 minutes ago, NotAVAP said:

You can't even imagine how helpful this was to me, thank you!

 

Could I exploit your knowledge a little bit more? Which of these two motherboards would you chose? Price difference doesn't matter to me. It would be paired with a 2700x.

Strictly between the two, I'd probably go for the Asus one, but it would really depend on the price.

 

Mainly because the Asus one

* has a better onboard sound chip ( Asus/Realtek rebrand S1220A versus classic Realtek ALC887) ,

* it has slightly better (though in real world probably not noticeable) Intel ethernet card (I211-AT) versus classic realtek 8111H

* it has two usb type-c 10 gbps connectors on the back panel and 4 usb 3.1 5gbps , while the MSI one has only USB 3.1 5gbps

 

Other than that, I like the position of the extra usb 3 header better on the Asus, and I also like that only two SATA connectors are on the edge and the others hidden between the RAM slots and video card - you most likely won't use more than 2 sata, so makes more sense to use the space on the edge for other things.

The Asus board also has a ton of RGB related stuff that I personally don't care about, but you may. they have their own Aura Sync or whatever bullshit rgb scheme they came up with.

 

Anyway, like I said, it really depends on the price. The MSI board isn't bad.

[Quadriplegic]

If you are going to use 2700x, I'd suggest to go with Strix due to offset voltage. 

Strangely enough, Buildzoid did pick MSI over the Strix as the best ITX board.

However, I must ask this – do you really need ITX motherboard? Most of time people use them for looks only and those builds tend to end up sucking 

[NotAVAP]

11 minutes ago, mariushm said:

Strictly between the two, I'd probably go for the Asus one, but it would really depend on the price.

The price difference in my country is like $75 (x470 = ~200 USD) but that isn't an issue. 

13 minutes ago, mariushm said:

they have their own Aura Sync or whatever bullshit rgb scheme they came up with.

Personally I think that RGB is a pile of rainbow shit, so I don't care about that.

14 minutes ago, mariushm said:

has a better onboard sound chip ( Asus/Realtek rebrand S1220A versus classic Realtek ALC887)

I'm not an audiophile or whatever you want to call it. I bet I couldn't tell the difference between those two chips.

 

15 minutes ago, mariushm said:

it has two usb type-c 10 gbps connectors on the back panel and 4 usb 3.1 5gbps , while the MSI one has only USB 3.1 5gbps

That might sell it to me.

 

And one more thing, what do you think about the zen2 not being supported on 300 and 400 series motherboards? Do you think it could be true?

 

source: (play it from 4:05 to around 14 minutes) 

 

[NotAVAP]

5 minutes ago, Quadriplegic said:

do you really need ITX motherboard?

I'm afraid I do. I'll be moving a lot between two homes (each one of them has a full setup except of the desktop) so I'll just take the case with me every time I'll be moving.

 

If you have any other and/or better tips please tell me

[Quadriplegic]

2 minutes ago, NotAVAP said:

I'm afraid I do. I'll be moving a lot between two homes (each one of them has a full setup except of the desktop) so I'll just take the case with me every time I'll be moving.

 

If you have any other and/or better tips please tell me

2 systems

[NotAVAP]

2 minutes ago, Quadriplegic said:

2 systems

Well no shit Sherlock wonder why I didn't think of that .

[-rascal-]

45 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

MSI B450-I has stronger VRM overall (6 CPU core phase, rated for 60A per phase), while Asus X470-I has 2/3 of that (6 CPU core phase, rated for 40A per phase). Only reason to buy the ROG board is for Aura sync (which I don't use) and offset voltage mode (need this to use PBO, Ryzen X chips' factory OC function, to the maximum capabilities). You can still do static overclock on the B450-I, so don't see a reason to convince myself to recommend the ROG board.

 

People like you is how brands like Asus and Razer get to survive. They can simply use fame to sell otherwise mediocre products for a high price.

 

Strix graphics cards are great, boards, not always. X470-F, great board (overlook the price), B450-F/B450-E, just a reskinned B450 TUF Plus, which itself is a B450 Plus with bigger heatsinks.

 

no one did that so far

 

I thought the MSi B450 uses doublers, so it is not a "true" 6+2 (rather a (3 x2) + 2, while the ASUS STriX X470 is a true 6+2.

I could be wrong, haven't looked into the in-depth board analysis.

[Jurrunio]

7 minutes ago, -rascal- said:

 

I thought the MSi B450 uses doublers, so it is not a "true" 6+2 (rather a (3 x2) + 2, while the ASUS STriX X470 is a true 6+2.

I could be wrong, haven't looked into the in-depth board analysis.

They don't this time. On ITX boards VRM heat output rules anyway so even a 3 phase with 6 sets of mosfets and no doublers will be better than having 2/3 the VRM output rating.

[mariushm]

14 minutes ago, NotAVAP said:

And one more thing, what do you think about the zen2 not being supported on 300 and 400 series motherboards? Do you think it could be true?

 

source: (play it from 4:05 to around 14 minutes) 

 

Zen2 will be supported on socket AM4. Definitely will be suported on x470 and b470.

 

May not be supported on some boards with 300 series chipsets but I don't see why not... one reason would be for the same reason why some of the 28nm AM4 processors (the ones before Ryzen which were sold only to OEMs like HP, Lenovo, Dell etc) may not be supported and that's lack of space for code in the bios chip to support multiple different processor series (families). Ryzen 1xxx and 2xxx is same "Zen" family.

 

The higher end ones with 12 cores or 16 cores may have a 105w TDP or some higher TDP value and that would make them not supported by some motherboards because the VRM could overheat (for example if the vrm is "optimized" for 65w TDP processors and just enough room to handle 95w TDP cpus with little OC)

 

So far, the only bonus on x570 chipset would be pci-e 4.0 , but that's backwards compatible with pci-e 3.0 and afaik it doesn't require more traces, more wires, so the same socket can be kept for the cpu.

[GoldenLag]

27 minutes ago, NotAVAP said:

And one more thing, what do you think about the zen2 not being supported on 300 and 400 series motherboards? Do you think it could be true?

 

source: (play it from 4:05 to around 14 minutes) 

Zen 2 will be supported on the older chipsets. the only thing that is still up in the air is if the R9 CPUs are going to be supported. (mostly due to VRM differences and powerdraw)

[NotAVAP]

22 minutes ago, mariushm said:

Zen2 will be supported on socket AM4. Definitely will be suported on x470 and b470.

 

16 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

Zen 2 will be supported on the older chipsets. the only thing that is still up in the air is if the R9 CPUs are going to be supported. (mostly due to VRM differences and powerdraw)

Alright, thanks for your opinions. It's always nice to talk to somebody that know a lot more than you know.

 

I really don't know how to thank you for your help. You guys brought me into the whole PC hardware genre and it's probably the second best thing that has happened to me. Thank you!