Australian Math Control- Coalition and Labor strike deal on inane anti-encrpytion bill, bill moves ahead to vote which is all but guaranteed to pass

[Syntaxvgm]

The laws of Australia prevail in Australia, I can assure you of that. The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only laws that applies in Australia is the law of Australia.”

Real Quote from Malcolm Turnbull, recent former Prime Minister.

 

No one is this stupid willingly. This is Australia's move to ignore how math works and force tech companies to keep end to end encryption keys for the government (or others) to access. This move for total surveillance comes with a major cost of the Australian tech industry future as well as the basic security of every Australian citizen while doing nothing to any competent individual the government want to track, using the typical list of excuses

Quote

sex offenders, terrorists, homicide and drug offenses

this bill only prevents law abiding individuals and companies from using secure encryption. If you outlaw math, only the criminals with have math.

King Canute demonstrated that even as king, he could not control the laws of nature themselves. He set his throne in the path of the wave and ordered them to halt, yet they continued strike his feet.

"Let all men know how empty and worthless is the power of kings, for there is none worthy of the name, but He whom heaven, earth, and sea obey by eternal laws"
Almost 1000 years later replace the sea with math and Australia's lawmakers could use his basic lesson.


https://techcrunch.com/2018/12/05/australia-rushes-its-dangerous-anti-encryption-bill-into-parliament/

[givingtnt]

I was going to say that these people can burn in hell.
But they're in Australia.. So its kind of already happening.

[Arika]

To be fair the Australian government is technically challenged (and other choice words) this is the same government that thinks that the internet we have now is perfectly acceptible is today's world. 

[Fnige]

Whats the world record for the biggest sigh? I think i can beat that now.

[CarlBar]

The principle of wanting to be able to get at stuff relating to genuine criminal activity is completely valid. But the way they're going about it isn't. More to the point the world isn't a vacuum anymore. Not every country is going to want or legally allow these sorts of provisions. Depending who says or does what tech companies may well just pull out of some countries. And if any of the major names pull out of any major country all hell is going to break loose.

[Maticks]

We barely have a computer system that can predict the weather correctly.

I doubt they'd have the power to decrypt a single message.

No one is going to hand over keys to the kingdom. Not Apple not Wickr.

 

What are they going to do ban the use of encryption and SSL

[Master Disaster]

Once this happens in Australia you can kiss goodbye to E2E encryption forever.

 

I wonder if anyone has pointed out that the people they're trying to catch breaking the law are infact the very same people who are most likely to ignore these laws and well, continue breaking the law.

 

Making something illegal doesn't stop criminals from doing that thing, they're criminals, it goes with job description.

[Master Disaster]

1 hour ago, Maticks said:

We barely have a computer system that can predict the weather correctly.

I doubt they'd have the power to decrypt a single message.

No one is going to hand over keys to the kingdom. Not Apple not Wickr.

 

What are they going to do ban the use of encryption and SSL

That's not how it works. Any corporation operating in any territory, foreign or domestic, MUST obey any and all laws within any territory they operate.

 

If this passes into law they have 2 choices, obey it or withdraw. Obviously the third choice is to do an EA and ignore the law then subject yourself to prosecution which is just stupidity.

[samcool55]

...what about money?

Like, money transfers, online transactions. They use E2E encryption so that's not going to end well...

 

And as others have pointed out, criminals aren't exactly people that follow the law so what does it matter if they break 1 more that could potentially save them from a much bigger problem? I would say it's worth the risk.

[Spotty]

3 hours ago, Syntaxvgm said:

The laws of Australia prevail in Australia, I can assure you of that. The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only laws that applies in Australia is the law of Australia.”

Real Quote from Malcolm Turnbull, recent former Prime Minister.

 

This was the same politician who a few years earlier when they held the role of Communications Minister advised fellow MPs (Members of Parliament) to use encrypted messaging apps because they were more secure.

Quote

Malcolm Turnbull confirms he uses Wickr, WhatsApp instead of unsecure SMS technology

Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull has confirmed he uses a secret messaging app, saying unsolicited texts sent to federal MPs prove SMS technology is not secure.

 

Mr Turnbull said he used other applications to send messages because SMSing was an unsecure form of communication.

"Probably the least secure form of messaging is SMS or text messaging because the messages are not encrypted in transit and they're not encrypted on the telco's server," he said.

"I use Wickr as an application. I use a number of others. I use WhatsApp ... because they're superior over-the-top messaging platforms.

"You know, millions of people do, hundreds of millions of people use over-the-top applications.

"When I say over the top, what I mean is they're travelling over the internet."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-03/malcolm-turnbull-uses-secret-messaging-app-instead-of-sms/6276712

[PlayStation 2]

They came for your guns.

They came for your automotive industry.

They're coming for your privacy.

 

Wowzers, I'm shocked!

[Taf the Ghost]

Some politicians are this stupid, but, as a group, they aren't. Which has always meant this Bill has nothing to do with Crime and everything to do with destroying Encryption Standards. 

 

This was paid for by global interests as a first major step to force backdoors in everything. Don't look at this as "oh, those silly Aussies can't understand Math". They are being either paid or forced to implement this. Considering practically all of the Aussie leadership are former Finance employees, looks like the Banking Cartel is spear-heading this endeavor. Germany was used, in a similar manner for backdoor regulation of Social Media platforms.

[CarlBar]

53 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

That's not how it works. Any corporation operating in any territory, foreign or domestic, MUST obey any and all laws within any territory they operate.

 

If this passes into law they have 2 choices, obey it or withdraw. Obviously the third choice is to do an EA and ignore the law then subject yourself to prosecution which is just stupidity.

 

And what happens when some country inevitably, (the EU strikes me as a strong contender to pull somthing like this given the amount of kibosh they put on the UK's attempt at this), passes a law requiring E2E encryption? That could leave companies in an untenable position where they have to choose who to service, depending on who and the ordering that could easily result in countries being left out in the cold.

 

2 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Some politicians are this stupid, but, as a group, they aren't. Which has always meant this Bill has nothing to do with Crime and everything to do with destroying Encryption Standards. 

 

This was paid for by global interests as a first major step to force backdoors in everything. Don't look at this as "oh, those silly Aussies can't understand Math". They are being either paid or forced to implement this. Considering practically all of the Aussie leadership are former Finance employees, looks like the Banking Cartel is spear-heading this endeavor. Germany was used, in a similar manner for backdoor regulation of Social Media platforms.

 

Given absolutely no company seems to want this, that dosen;t fly. But given who's been advocating this in terms of countries i'd bet it;s world intelligence agencies who want it to make it easier to keep tabs on various state entities and actors. Which also explains why the EU seems to be less than pleased by the idea. They aren't a closed system and it's pretty obvious they have some serious differences of opinion with the US and it's closest allies, (who are the ones mostly pushing this), on foreign policy over the last decade or so.

[Taf the Ghost]

2 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

And what happens when some country inevitably, (the EU strikes me as a strong contender to pull somthing like this given the amount of kibosh they put on the UK's attempt at this), passes a law requiring E2E encryption? That could leave companies in an untenable position where they have to choose who to service, depending on who and the ordering that could easily result in countries being left out in the cold.

 

 

Given absolutely no company seems to want this, that dosen;t fly. But given who's been advocating this in terms of countries i'd bet it;s world intelligence agencies who want it to make it easier to keep tabs on various state entities and actors. Which also explains why the EU seems to be less than pleased by the idea. They aren't a closed system and it's pretty obvious they have some serious differences of opinion with the US and it's closest allies, (who are the ones mostly pushing this), on foreign policy over the last decade or so.

The EU has long had a strong hatred of both Google & Facebook, which has to be viewed in a faction context. They get all of this Intelligence as a part of simply existing and the Five-Eyes get direct access to all of it. Attacks on Social Media seem to come from the EU; attacks on Encryption from the Five-Eyes countries. That's also the context for the 5G/Huawei stuff.

[Syntaxvgm]

1 hour ago, Spotty said:

 

This was the same politician who a few years earlier when they held the role of Communications Minister advised fellow MPs (Members of Parliament) to use encrypted messaging apps because they were more secure.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-03/malcolm-turnbull-uses-secret-messaging-app-instead-of-sms/6276712

like I said, no one is this stupid. Might have worded it a bit wrong, but they know exactly what they're doing.  

[Syntaxvgm]

1 hour ago, samcool55 said:

...what about money?

Like, money transfers, online transactions. They use E2E encryption so that's not going to end well...

 

And as others have pointed out, criminals aren't exactly people that follow the law so what does it matter if they break 1 more that could potentially save them from a much bigger problem? I would say it's worth the risk.

Yes. Related, I sleep more comfortable at night knowing that the people who might break into my house and kill me must follow the same gun regulations I do or face jail time. 

[Taf the Ghost]

4 minutes ago, Syntaxvgm said:

Yes. Related, I sleep more comfortable at night knowing that the people who might break into my house and kill me must follow the same gun regulations I do or face jail time. 

Anti-Encryption Control forces clearly don't think about the Children. 

 

More seriously, it's the exact same Divide & Confuse approach. Only works when you have a Media that plays along with the lies, but they have that. Thus, "won't you think about the Children?".

[CarlBar]

17 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

The EU has long had a strong hatred of both Google & Facebook, which has to be viewed in a faction context. They get all of this Intelligence as a part of simply existing and the Five-Eyes get direct access to all of it. Attacks on Social Media seem to come from the EU; attacks on Encryption from the Five-Eyes countries. That's also the context for the 5G/Huawei stuff.

 

Yes but their longstanding beef with them is the amount of data they gather on people. Which is functionally exactly what this legislation is all about letting Australia get access to. Don't get me wrong the EU has it's own gaffes, primarily related to copyright law. But Aus and the EU are taking fundamentally incompatible stances here. The EU can't stop that kind of data gathering and not have it's laws come into conflict with Australia's. When your gun (or whatever weapon you care to name), goes off it dosen;t matter to what it hits weather you meant to fire it or what you intended to happen.

 

Which honestly is the real root of the problem. Too many countries are still trying to go on like it's business as usual, but the world is now so interconnected that any law ne country passes effects others potentially and the more extreme the laws get the more it risks forcing companies to take sides in matters. Legislation that effects tech companies that use anything web based at all (i.e. 99% of them now), isn;t just affecting your own nation anymore, home tech legislation has diplomatic consequences now. And i don't think nations governments have caught up with the implications of that.

 

I mean think about this new Aus law and anti-virus companies. A non-Aus based company is under no obligation to not update it's AV software to hardblock malicious code that another company is running in it's software at Aus's demand. For that mater what about open source software developed and maintained by groups outside of Aus. The AUs government has zero authority over them and can't force them to do a thing yet there's all kinds of ways they could gum up the works.

 

Your not just talking about "tech wars" between nation states, you could get tech companies and individual tech communities getting into tech wars with national governments. AM i the only one who sees how epicly screwed up that is?

[Taf the Ghost]

27 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

Yes but their longstanding beef with them is the amount of data they gather on people. Which is functionally exactly what this legislation is all about letting Australia get access to. Don't get me wrong the EU has it's own gaffes, primarily related to copyright law. But Aus and the EU are taking fundamentally incompatible stances here. The EU can't stop that kind of data gathering and not have it's laws come into conflict with Australia's. When your gun (or whatever weapon you care to name), goes off it dosen;t matter to what it hits weather you meant to fire it or what you intended to happen.

 

Which honestly is the real root of the problem. Too many countries are still trying to go on like it's business as usual, but the world is now so interconnected that any law ne country passes effects others potentially and the more extreme the laws get the more it risks forcing companies to take sides in matters. Legislation that effects tech companies that use anything web based at all (i.e. 99% of them now), isn;t just affecting your own nation anymore, home tech legislation has diplomatic consequences now. And i don't think nations governments have caught up with the implications of that.

 

I mean think about this new Aus law and anti-virus companies. A non-Aus based company is under no obligation to not update it's AV software to hardblock malicious code that another company is running in it's software at Aus's demand. For that mater what about open source software developed and maintained by groups outside of Aus. The AUs government has zero authority over them and can't force them to do a thing yet there's all kinds of ways they could gum up the works.

 

Your not just talking about "tech wars" between nation states, you could get tech companies and individual tech communities getting into tech wars with national governments. AM i the only one who sees how epicly screwed up that is?

On the Over-Layer, you're not wrong, but you're missing the more direct context behind all of this.

 

1) These types of Law Conflicts will be used to argue for Global Governance. 

2) There is a factional fight for Information Access between the Neo-British Empire and the EU Super-State.

3) China is buying up large chunks of Australia, which means a lot of their citizens, of some importance, are running around there. Forcing backdoors into everything they use gives Five-Eyes access to most of China, which they can't get as easily. Or China has to completely pull out of Australia. (This is probably the "deal" the local Aussies brokered for why this is happening.)

4) Backdoors in Consumer Goods is a high priority for all Intelligence Services, so getting them in there means everyone is Intel is happy.

5) It is always about Power & Control. Never forget that.

[CarlBar]

14 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

On the Over-Layer, you're not wrong, but you're missing the more direct context behind all of this.

 

1) These types of Law Conflicts will be used to argue for Global Governance. 

2) There is a factional fight for Information Access between the Neo-British Empire and the EU Super-State.

3) China is buying up large chunks of Australia, which means a lot of their citizens, of some importance, are running around there. Forcing backdoors into everything they use gives Five-Eyes access to most of China, which they can't get as easily. Or China has to completely pull out of Australia. (This is probably the "deal" the local Aussies brokered for why this is happening.)

4) Backdoors in Consumer Goods is a high priority for all Intelligence Services, so getting them in there means everyone is Intel is happy.

5) It is always about Power & Control. Never forget that.

 

Oh i'm very aware of the underlying tri way dynamic of China vs US (+allis which is mostly Uk and former UK commonwealth nations at this point), vs EU. Hell i've been saying we'd see an EU vs US pushing match at some point since the early 2000's. I didn't expect it to take quite this form, but no one really saw the allways online PC, smartphone, or tablet explosions coming back then. Camera phones with 0.5 meg camera where the big portable tech thing back then.

 

The thing is nation states change leadership and the underlying ideologies all the time with policy shifts, public opinion does somtimes influence things, and rusia is busy stirring the pot and who knows what wildcards will showup, (the whole tech companies and tech communities being able to get into this are one strand we can see,who knows what we can't). There's a huge number of ways for this to go completely sideways on everyone.

 

Or to quote David Weber:

 

"History is full of roadkills who thought they knew where the future was headed".

[derr12]

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Once this happens in Australia you can kiss goodbye to E2E encryption forever.

 

I wonder if anyone has pointed out that the people they're trying to catch breaking the law are infact the very same people who are most likely to ignore these laws and well, continue breaking the law.

 

Making something illegal doesn't stop criminals from doing that thing, they're criminals, it goes with job description.

It’s scary how close this line of thinking is related to the wierd gun control legislation on the table in canada right now. 

[williamcll]

Might as well set up a new political party.

[Master Disaster]

9 hours ago, CarlBar said:

And what happens when some country inevitably, (the EU strikes me as a strong contender to pull somthing like this given the amount of kibosh they put on the UK's attempt at this), passes a law requiring E2E encryption? That could leave companies in an untenable position where they have to choose who to service, depending on who and the ordering that could easily result in countries being left out in the cold.

If that happens then it happens, there's not much the companies can do other than comply, leave or exactly as you said (and exactly as has happened in Belgium with lootboxes) they cut off one market entirely and serve everyone else.

[RejZoR]

What's the point of even having things encrypted if you hand over master keys to imbeciles who cooked up this idiocy in the first place? Why not just return to plain text everything ffs...

 

If this hot grabage actually passes as a law, I sure as hell hope someone steals the keys and leaks personal data of morons who cooked up this crap by using very same keys they demanded to be handed over to them. So they'll personally feel the importance of encryption security that is in no one's hands.

[LAwLz]

Here is a very good article from EFF explaining why this bill is bad and exactly what would need to be changed (for example putting individual developers in prison if they do not comply with orders to make changes to their systems).