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turkey3_scratch

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  1. Agree
  2. Informative
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from 17030644 in Why you Should Not Purchase the EVGA G2 Lineup Especially in Homes with Frequent Brownouts   
    (NOTE FROM CREATOR OF THIS POST YEARS LATER: I DON'T SUPPORT THE CONCLUSIONS I DREW ANYMORE)
     
    The EVGA G2 lineup is considered by many to be very high quality, the P2 considered fantastic, but the latest testing by professional reviewers shows that some or perhaps all of these units have a serious flaw that won't harm the PSU but could harm your other hardware. It's important to explain the concepts before anything. Very few reviewers test for this stuff - Aris, who does power supply reviews on Tomshardware and Techpowerup, very recently started a new test. This new test shows that many units have newly revealed flaws, and this problem exists with the EVGA G2 and P2 lineup. The EVGA G2 series is a direct copy of the Superflower Leadex Gold series. The EVGA P2 series is a direct copy of the Superflower Leadex Platinum series.
     
    Old Hold-Up Time Tests
     
    In the past, most power supply reviewers would test "hold-up time" as the amount of time from when there is AC loss (i.e. power outage) to when the unit shuts off, while under full load. For example, if a power supply is under 100% load and there is a power outage, if it takes 20ms for the power supply to shut off, it would be defined as having a hold-up time of 20ms. However, this is not an actual test with what hold-up time really is, and new tests reveal new realities. The old hold-up time tests are not in exact accordance with the definition of hold-up time.
     
    Hold-Up Time
     
    Hold-up time is defined as the time period from when there is AC loss to when a voltage goes below ATX specification. The ATX specification for the 12V rail is from 11.4V to 12.6V. So if there is AC loss and it takes a power supply 20ms until its 12V voltage gets down to 11.4V, then 20ms is the hold-up time. Some people incorrectly define hold-up time as the time between AC loss and when the power supply shuts off. This is incorrect; a power supply may actually shut itself off after hold-up time. Hold-up time is strictly the amount of time from AC loss until a voltage goes out of specification.
     
    AC_LOSS to PWR_OK_OFF
     
    When there is AC loss, the voltage outputs of the power supply begin to drop to lower numbers. It is the job of the circuitry of the power supply to detect this and shut off the unit before the voltages go below  the ATX specification. Basically, under-voltage protection. Before any of those voltages go out of specification, the power supply is supposed to cut the PWR_OK signal. The PWR_OK signal is a cable in the main 24-pin ATX cable used to communicate with the motherboard. When on, it's telling the motherboard that its voltages are all safe. When the PWR_OK signal is cut, circuitry is supposed to shut off the power supply as fast as possible so the voltages don't go out of specification.
     
    The latest testing methods in renowned power supply reviews are AC_LOSS to PWR_OK tests. This tests the duration of time it takes from there being AC loss to the computer dropping the PWR_OK signal. So, for example, if there is a power outage, your computer is under full load, and your power supply has an AC_LOSS to PWR_OK time of 18ms, then in 18ms your power supply will tell your motherboard, "Hey! Voltages are about to get low. Better shut me off now." And then the unit will be shut down quite rapidly once the PWR_OK signal is dropped.
     
    There is a catch though: some power supply units drop the PWR_OK signal after the voltages go out of specification. This means when there is AC_LOSS, the power supply will continue providing the computer with energy as those voltages go deeper and deeper below the ATX specification. Once it gets to a certain low point, then it'll cut the PWR_OK signal, after harm has already been done. In a way, this is a cheating method used by power supply manufacturers to do well on old hold-up time tests that check the duration of AC_LOSS to PSU shutdown time. This cheating method is also dangerous.
     
    EVGA G2 550 Flaw
     
    The EVGA 550 G2 has this exact flaw. It drops the PWR_OK signal at 10.8V. This information can be found at the Tomshardware Superflower Leadex Gold 550 review here: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/super-flower-leadex-gold-550w-power-supply,4416-4.html
     
    Some of you may be thinking, "Oh, it's just 10.8V, no big deal." No, this is  a big deal. Power supply experts like Aris (who did the above review) say it is a serious matter, as well as the experts on the Jonnyguru forums. It is a serious issue, and the EVGA 550 G2 should not be purchased because of it, especially in areas where there are frequent power outages.
     
    It is important to note that Aris did do a review on the EVGA 550 G2 here, but that was before these new tests came about.
     
    EVGA P2 Series Assumed Flaw
     
    Most likely, the entire EVGA P2 lineup has the same issue, but right now it is merely speculation (but a pretty good one). The Superflower Leadex Platinum 550 review here: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/super-flower-leadex-platinum-550w-power-supply,4281-4.html
     
    This review was before the PWR_OK to AC_LOSS tests. Hold-up time was tested to be 13.8ms. That is below the ATX specification. There is no doubt in my mind that it probably drops the PWR_OK signal at 10.8V just like the EVGA 550 G2, in order to "cheat" and get good hold-up times on the old hold-up time tests.
     
    EVGA T2 is Safe
     
    The EVGA Titanium lineup has been tested and does not have this issue.
     
    EVGA G2: Rest of Lineup
     
    As of now, the non-550W versions of the EVGA G2 lineup may have these issues, but we cannot know for sure. Power supply experts are pretty confident the rest of the G2 lineup does have this problem, which is very important.
     
    What to do Now?
     
    Realize that sometimes units we think are incredible really are not. Everybody likes to go around forums talking about how fantastic the EVGA G2 lineup is, but with this problem, how can it be? It shouldn't make any high tier on any list, because Superflower cheats to get good hold-up time on old tests, and sets far too low under-voltage protection values. It is a serious matter, because the VRMs of all your hardware can be seriously affected by such a low voltage, 10.8V. There is a reason the ATX specification exists. 10.8V is two times out of the specification.
  3. Informative
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from r2724r16 in Why you Should Not Purchase the EVGA G2 Lineup Especially in Homes with Frequent Brownouts   
    (NOTE FROM CREATOR OF THIS POST YEARS LATER: I DON'T SUPPORT THE CONCLUSIONS I DREW ANYMORE)
     
    The EVGA G2 lineup is considered by many to be very high quality, the P2 considered fantastic, but the latest testing by professional reviewers shows that some or perhaps all of these units have a serious flaw that won't harm the PSU but could harm your other hardware. It's important to explain the concepts before anything. Very few reviewers test for this stuff - Aris, who does power supply reviews on Tomshardware and Techpowerup, very recently started a new test. This new test shows that many units have newly revealed flaws, and this problem exists with the EVGA G2 and P2 lineup. The EVGA G2 series is a direct copy of the Superflower Leadex Gold series. The EVGA P2 series is a direct copy of the Superflower Leadex Platinum series.
     
    Old Hold-Up Time Tests
     
    In the past, most power supply reviewers would test "hold-up time" as the amount of time from when there is AC loss (i.e. power outage) to when the unit shuts off, while under full load. For example, if a power supply is under 100% load and there is a power outage, if it takes 20ms for the power supply to shut off, it would be defined as having a hold-up time of 20ms. However, this is not an actual test with what hold-up time really is, and new tests reveal new realities. The old hold-up time tests are not in exact accordance with the definition of hold-up time.
     
    Hold-Up Time
     
    Hold-up time is defined as the time period from when there is AC loss to when a voltage goes below ATX specification. The ATX specification for the 12V rail is from 11.4V to 12.6V. So if there is AC loss and it takes a power supply 20ms until its 12V voltage gets down to 11.4V, then 20ms is the hold-up time. Some people incorrectly define hold-up time as the time between AC loss and when the power supply shuts off. This is incorrect; a power supply may actually shut itself off after hold-up time. Hold-up time is strictly the amount of time from AC loss until a voltage goes out of specification.
     
    AC_LOSS to PWR_OK_OFF
     
    When there is AC loss, the voltage outputs of the power supply begin to drop to lower numbers. It is the job of the circuitry of the power supply to detect this and shut off the unit before the voltages go below  the ATX specification. Basically, under-voltage protection. Before any of those voltages go out of specification, the power supply is supposed to cut the PWR_OK signal. The PWR_OK signal is a cable in the main 24-pin ATX cable used to communicate with the motherboard. When on, it's telling the motherboard that its voltages are all safe. When the PWR_OK signal is cut, circuitry is supposed to shut off the power supply as fast as possible so the voltages don't go out of specification.
     
    The latest testing methods in renowned power supply reviews are AC_LOSS to PWR_OK tests. This tests the duration of time it takes from there being AC loss to the computer dropping the PWR_OK signal. So, for example, if there is a power outage, your computer is under full load, and your power supply has an AC_LOSS to PWR_OK time of 18ms, then in 18ms your power supply will tell your motherboard, "Hey! Voltages are about to get low. Better shut me off now." And then the unit will be shut down quite rapidly once the PWR_OK signal is dropped.
     
    There is a catch though: some power supply units drop the PWR_OK signal after the voltages go out of specification. This means when there is AC_LOSS, the power supply will continue providing the computer with energy as those voltages go deeper and deeper below the ATX specification. Once it gets to a certain low point, then it'll cut the PWR_OK signal, after harm has already been done. In a way, this is a cheating method used by power supply manufacturers to do well on old hold-up time tests that check the duration of AC_LOSS to PSU shutdown time. This cheating method is also dangerous.
     
    EVGA G2 550 Flaw
     
    The EVGA 550 G2 has this exact flaw. It drops the PWR_OK signal at 10.8V. This information can be found at the Tomshardware Superflower Leadex Gold 550 review here: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/super-flower-leadex-gold-550w-power-supply,4416-4.html
     
    Some of you may be thinking, "Oh, it's just 10.8V, no big deal." No, this is  a big deal. Power supply experts like Aris (who did the above review) say it is a serious matter, as well as the experts on the Jonnyguru forums. It is a serious issue, and the EVGA 550 G2 should not be purchased because of it, especially in areas where there are frequent power outages.
     
    It is important to note that Aris did do a review on the EVGA 550 G2 here, but that was before these new tests came about.
     
    EVGA P2 Series Assumed Flaw
     
    Most likely, the entire EVGA P2 lineup has the same issue, but right now it is merely speculation (but a pretty good one). The Superflower Leadex Platinum 550 review here: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/super-flower-leadex-platinum-550w-power-supply,4281-4.html
     
    This review was before the PWR_OK to AC_LOSS tests. Hold-up time was tested to be 13.8ms. That is below the ATX specification. There is no doubt in my mind that it probably drops the PWR_OK signal at 10.8V just like the EVGA 550 G2, in order to "cheat" and get good hold-up times on the old hold-up time tests.
     
    EVGA T2 is Safe
     
    The EVGA Titanium lineup has been tested and does not have this issue.
     
    EVGA G2: Rest of Lineup
     
    As of now, the non-550W versions of the EVGA G2 lineup may have these issues, but we cannot know for sure. Power supply experts are pretty confident the rest of the G2 lineup does have this problem, which is very important.
     
    What to do Now?
     
    Realize that sometimes units we think are incredible really are not. Everybody likes to go around forums talking about how fantastic the EVGA G2 lineup is, but with this problem, how can it be? It shouldn't make any high tier on any list, because Superflower cheats to get good hold-up time on old tests, and sets far too low under-voltage protection values. It is a serious matter, because the VRMs of all your hardware can be seriously affected by such a low voltage, 10.8V. There is a reason the ATX specification exists. 10.8V is two times out of the specification.
  4. Like
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from serotonin in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    If I'm correct the Hong Hua fans they use are not known for much consistency, so there can probably be a batch of semi-ok fans, a batch of meh fans, a batch of good fans. But I'd be hard-pressed to say they have a large issue with the M12ii units, most people who own them I reckon have no problems at all until after maybe 4-5 years of usage. Also, noisiness of a fan is not necessarily a product defect (though I'm not sure about rattling), it could simply be a noisy fan, and I believe the M12ii does have a loud fan, so that's something that would be good to research prior to purchasing the PSU. Most people won't experience loud noise if they're running at a lighter load, plus some people don't care much about noise as is, so you have a whole plethora of perspectives.
  5. Like
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from STRMfrmXMN in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    Sometimes they may be talking about electrical instead of audible noise, hard to tell sometimes without making the distinction.
  6. Agree
    turkey3_scratch reacted to Biggerboot in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    Even if it was improved you still don't know exactly what revision of the B3 you're getting unless the retailer specifies the manufacturing year.  It's like the green cx all over.
  7. Agree
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from STRMfrmXMN in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    It doesn't matter if it's quieter than the rest of the system still. If the GPUs and CPU cooler and case fans are louder than the PSU fan it's rather irrelevant.
  8. Agree
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from Biggerboot in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    It doesn't matter if it's quieter than the rest of the system still. If the GPUs and CPU cooler and case fans are louder than the PSU fan it's rather irrelevant.
  9. Like
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from STRMfrmXMN in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    Probably because people throw out boxes, proofs of purchase, don't register their product on time, etc. I know I don't really like being flooded by boxes, I like to send them right to the trash.
  10. Agree
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from Sakkura in EVGA G3 or GQ ?   
    A statement like this is just as bad as "EVGA PSUs are great".
  11. Like
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from LienusLateTips in EVGA G3 or GQ ?   
    A statement like this is just as bad as "EVGA PSUs are great".
  12. Like
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from seon123 in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    At this point I'd always wait for a review that tests more things before tiering, JG reviews don't have protection testing, transient response, among other things.
  13. Like
    turkey3_scratch reacted to Lady Fitzgerald in Roisin Dearg (a Scratch Built "Modular" Case)   
    A little over a year and a half ago, I started working on a case for a new computer to replace my aging one. Unfortunately, I ran into frequent delays due to life happening (including my toilet falling through the floor while I was taking care of business, blowing out my back) and various health issues (being a handicapped, flatulent geriatric doesn't help any). I'm finally getting back to work on the thing, which has become a higher priority since the aforementioned aging computer just died (trying to do anything I had been doing on the late desktop machine, other than web surfing, on my little notebook ranges from being a total pain to completely impossible).
     
    The name of the new computer is Roisin Dearg (roe-sheen dare-ug), which is Irish Gaelic for Red Rose (actually, Rose Red). To hopefully make this the last case I ever need to build (I'm too old for this kind of stuff anymore), I'm making it as modular as possible so I can just swap out, add, or remove portions of it as technology or my mind changes instead of tearing down the machine so I can do major surgery on the case or have to build a new one. To achieve this, the MOBO tray is removable. The case has 14 5.25" bays I can put in things like an optical drive (don't laugh, I still use ODDs for ripping optical discs), a switch panel, the front panel I/O, various hot swap bays, my SSD cages (I've switched over to all SSDs), storage drawers for small items like USB sticks), and anything else I may happen to want or need. Whenever practical, I'm "stealthing" the 5.25" devices for a cleaner look.
     
    The frame is made from 80/20 aluminum extrusions. The top, front, and two side panels are held on by magnets for a cleaner look. While the frame and inner panels will be all satin black, the top, front, and two side panels will be covered with a highly figured Anigre wood veneer. I'll make most of the power cables myself but they won't be individually sleeved; I prefer to hide my cables as much as possible. The left side panel will have a small, tempered glass window.
     
    Also, since I live in the dusty Phoenix, AZ area and live in a mobile home that isn't exactly dust proof, I've designed the case to take a 10" x 20" pleated paper air filter which fits in the floor of the case. There are eight 120mm fans for pulling air through the filter and four exhaust fans, one in the back and three on top. I will also be putting sound deadening foam inside the case. I have it in the deceased computer and really makes a difference in the amount of noise the computer puts out. I could barely hear it from two to three feet away at my desk and not at all from further away.
     
    I was running a build log over on OCN Forums but their ownership recently changed and the forums were migrated to another platform that makes posting photos a royal pain in the neck (actually, the pain is about two feet lower). Since migrating everything there over to here would be a massive undertaking I just don't feel up to doing, here a couple of links to what I have already over on OCN:
     
    http://www.overclock.net/forum/15-case-mods/1602023-preparing-scratch-built-case.html
    http://www.overclock.net/forum/15-case-mods/1632464-roisin-dearg-scratch-built-case-part-2-preparing-scratch-built-case.html
     
    I've been ready to paint the various panels of the build and the frame for quite some time but every time my health was behaving, the weather wasn't. Today, health and weather cooperated although I had a pretty narrow window to get the painting done before it got too hot so I was able to get all the panels painted today. Hopefully, I'll get the frame painted Saturday or Sunday, depending on the weather. Anyroad, here are some shots of what it looked like today after I finished painting:
     

     

     

     

     

     
    I managed to get all the panels back into the house and everything put away before dark. Right now, my tired hurts (along with the rest of my carcass) and I'll probably hibernate all day tomorrow.
  14. Agree
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from Megah3rtz in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    PSUs that don't have any known information and/or a review are not placed into tiers.
  15. Like
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from JoostinOnline in Are Seasonic power supplies reliable?   
    90% of all arguments are semantics.
  16. Agree
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from GDRRiley in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    What are your specs? And why only those two?
  17. Agree
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from STRMfrmXMN in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    What are your specs? And why only those two?
  18. Like
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from awesomegamer919 in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    Probability should not be ignored. If we have a separate world (not this world but an imaginary world) in which 90% of cars from America are objectively terrible and the majority of cars from Japan are objectively good, then one could argue it's a reasonable statement to make that you don't want an American vehicle, even though there is technically the 10% that are just as good. Does not mean that there are any underlying anti-American implications, but rather the individual deemed it worthy to disregard the 10% in favor of what they believe is a reasonable probabilistic assumption.
     
    In this same separate world, we can say 95% of Chinese capacitors objectively suck and 5% of them are fantastic. Not wanting Chinese capacitors in a power supply, then, would not be ignoring the 5% of fantastic capacitors but is rather a grim outlook that most likely the ones present belong to the 95% sucky ones. It's just not worth it to worry about the 5%, we might as well generalize and say the Chinese capacitors suck, even though in the back of our heads we know deep down there are some exceptions.
     
    Now, granted, in our world, the real world, these percentages could be extremely off; additionally, objectifying what is "good" or "bad" is no easy task for anything. But you have to understand that people do have the impressions that most Chinese capacitors have a lifespan shorter than Japanese capacitors. Whether or not this is actually true does not change the fact that people believe it, and so their implications, all I'm saying here, is probably not anything anti-Chinese but just distaste for what they believe to reasonably expect is a lower quality product.
  19. Like
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from LienusLateTips in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    Probability should not be ignored. If we have a separate world (not this world but an imaginary world) in which 90% of cars from America are objectively terrible and the majority of cars from Japan are objectively good, then one could argue it's a reasonable statement to make that you don't want an American vehicle, even though there is technically the 10% that are just as good. Does not mean that there are any underlying anti-American implications, but rather the individual deemed it worthy to disregard the 10% in favor of what they believe is a reasonable probabilistic assumption.
     
    In this same separate world, we can say 95% of Chinese capacitors objectively suck and 5% of them are fantastic. Not wanting Chinese capacitors in a power supply, then, would not be ignoring the 5% of fantastic capacitors but is rather a grim outlook that most likely the ones present belong to the 95% sucky ones. It's just not worth it to worry about the 5%, we might as well generalize and say the Chinese capacitors suck, even though in the back of our heads we know deep down there are some exceptions.
     
    Now, granted, in our world, the real world, these percentages could be extremely off; additionally, objectifying what is "good" or "bad" is no easy task for anything. But you have to understand that people do have the impressions that most Chinese capacitors have a lifespan shorter than Japanese capacitors. Whether or not this is actually true does not change the fact that people believe it, and so their implications, all I'm saying here, is probably not anything anti-Chinese but just distaste for what they believe to reasonably expect is a lower quality product.
  20. Informative
    turkey3_scratch reacted to OrionFOTL in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    They have 80 Plus:
    http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/ACBEL POLYTECH INC._PCB007_400W_ECOS 4010_Report.pdf
    http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/ACBEL POLYTECH INC._PCB008_500W_ECOS 4011_Report.pdf
    http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/ACBEL POLYTECH INC._PCB009_600W_ECOS 3996_Report.pdf
    http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/ACBEL POLYTECH INC._PCB010_700W_ECOS 4004_Report.pdf
     
    Looks great on the inside too:

     
    Half bridge primary side topology with LLC resonant converter, synchronous rectification, DC-DC converters, very open layout with 12V transistors having their own heatsink while +5V and +3.3V MOSFETs are cooled by the chassis.
  21. Like
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from LienusLateTips in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    Different Sparkle than http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=212 ?
     
    Edit: I also notice jon is wearing a power supply T-shirt in the video. I remember someone made some and posted them on the JG forums not too long ago...
  22. Like
    turkey3_scratch got a reaction from Zeny1 in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    Those calculators, though, don't really cite where they get their information from. Then again, there is a distinction that needs to be made. There is a difference in how much power your computer will actually use and what the "recommended wattage" is for a power supply. It's important to pay attention to which one it's talking about.
     
    But recommending a certain wattage based upon accurate power usage information (which I'm afraid to say many calculators seem to get wrong) is entirely subjective. Different people will recommend different things. On the Jonnyguru forums, things are much more conservative so if your power consumption is something like 400W under heavy load, then get a 450W power supply. On other forums and from certain people, they may disagree. My own personal beliefs? I don't care, get whatever you are comfortable with.
     
    But I am against people telling people that it's wrong to get a 450W power supply if power draw is something like 400W; that's just what they think, and their own thoughts aren't necessarily authoritative. The "don't run a power supply above some percentage load" is more myth and subjective than actually true. But like I said, some people get peace of mind with a higher wattage; nothing wrong with that. It's just important to distinguish between two things: people's feelings and the actual physics of what's going on in the power supply.
  23. Like
    turkey3_scratch reacted to EnergyEclipse in How are Power Supplies allowed to be 'over specified'?   
    Hello! I just have a inquiry on the over specifying of the power output capabilities.
     
    The first thing it seemed I was warned about when assembling my first new computers was about avoiding the cheaply made power supplies generally found on sites like eBay. However, it always seemed a little odd that one of the main reasons for avoiding them was because cheaper units would 'overspec' the capabilities in an attempt to fool the uninformed into thinking they're getting a bargain. Why is it that these units aren't under it seems any regulations regarding what wattage these PSUs can actually do? What is letting them sell units that cannot do what they claim?
     
    Thank you very much in advance for any replies,
    -EnergyEclipse
  24. Agree
    turkey3_scratch reacted to STRMfrmXMN in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    If it's like the 1000W G1 then it's not a bad unit and I highly doubt it's going to be a problem child. It's just ridiculously unnecessary for a 1070 and i7. A 550W unit would be plenty.
  25. Like
    turkey3_scratch reacted to jonnyGURU in PSU Tier List [OLD]   
    It says, "Don't Cheap Out On Your Power Supply".
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