Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
corrado33

Question: Why do CPU IHSs exist?

Recommended Posts

Posted · Original PosterOP

The internal heat spreader on a CPU is a piece of nickel plated copper. The base of any decent cooler is a piece of nickel plated (or just normal) copper. 

 

One would imagine that the IHS does less heat "spreading" and more "die protecting"... right? Why don't we just mount coolers directly on top of the die? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, corrado33 said:

One would imagine that the IHS does less heat "spreading" and more "die protecting"... right?

Exactly, to prevent dummies from mounting the cooler with too much force and crush the die.


Studying abroad, ditched the crappy laptop for a mobile workstation/gaming laptop double WITH CRAPPY THERMAL PASTE THAT 1/2 THE CINEBENCH SCORE

Model: HP Omen 17 17-an110ca CPU: i7-8750H (0.125V undervolt) GPU: GTX 1060 6GB Mobile (1700MHz 0.812V) RAM: 12GB DDR4-2666 CL19 (timings are so loose, might as well have lower frequency). Storage: 128GB Toshiba NVMe SSD (KBG30ZMV128G) + 1TB Seagate 7200RPM 2.5" HDD (ST1000LM049-2GH172) Monitor: 1080p 120Hz IPS G-sync

 

The best thing to do is reading the clock speed that doesnt end in a pair of zeros. Software voltage readings are wrong if your motherboard's not a high end model

CPU: i7-2600K 4493MHz (multiplier: 43x) 1.35V (software) --> 1.4V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 104.5MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 10-11-11-30 2T 2133MHz, custom: 10-11-10-30 1T 2229MHz) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 2 exhausts Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (OC'd 150Hz) TN Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

Results: Cinebench R15 Single thread:159 Multi-thread: 770 (thx Meltdown Spectre patch) Super Pi (v1.5 from Techpowerup, PI value output) 16K: 0.11s 1M: 8.4s 32M: 7m 45.9s

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Original PosterOP
Just now, Jurrunio said:

Exactly, to prevent dummies from mounting the cooler with too much force and crush the die.

But then... why don't non-dummies mount their cooler correctly and... reap the benefits? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, corrado33 said:

But then... why don't non-dummies mount their cooler correctly and... reap the benefits? 

it's not like they can ban dummies from buying desktop CPUs

 

laptop CPUs have no lids for this reason, only the manufacturer will be touching them (supposedly).


Studying abroad, ditched the crappy laptop for a mobile workstation/gaming laptop double WITH CRAPPY THERMAL PASTE THAT 1/2 THE CINEBENCH SCORE

Model: HP Omen 17 17-an110ca CPU: i7-8750H (0.125V undervolt) GPU: GTX 1060 6GB Mobile (1700MHz 0.812V) RAM: 12GB DDR4-2666 CL19 (timings are so loose, might as well have lower frequency). Storage: 128GB Toshiba NVMe SSD (KBG30ZMV128G) + 1TB Seagate 7200RPM 2.5" HDD (ST1000LM049-2GH172) Monitor: 1080p 120Hz IPS G-sync

 

The best thing to do is reading the clock speed that doesnt end in a pair of zeros. Software voltage readings are wrong if your motherboard's not a high end model

CPU: i7-2600K 4493MHz (multiplier: 43x) 1.35V (software) --> 1.4V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 104.5MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 10-11-11-30 2T 2133MHz, custom: 10-11-10-30 1T 2229MHz) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 2 exhausts Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (OC'd 150Hz) TN Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

Results: Cinebench R15 Single thread:159 Multi-thread: 770 (thx Meltdown Spectre patch) Super Pi (v1.5 from Techpowerup, PI value output) 16K: 0.11s 1M: 8.4s 32M: 7m 45.9s

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Original PosterOP
2 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

it's not like they can ban dummies from buying desktop CPUs

 

laptop CPUs have no lids for this reason, only the manufacturer will be touching them (supposedly).

Yes, that's my point. What I'm asking is why doesn't someone like LTT or Jay delid a CPU then just mount the cooler straight onto the die? 

 

EDIT: I suppose you'd need a special cooler to actually reach down into the socket and touch the die. Shouldn't be too hard to machine a few mm off the sides of an existing cooler. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, dgsddfgdfhgs said:

not really, how much force are you talking about to crush it??

 

Its going to take a complete redesign of the chip, and shell to make it work. The current setup is thin enough to damage if you are not lapping (sanding it down to make it flat) and such. Id enjoy it as GPU's tend to do better here but they are much larger die's

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, dgsddfgdfhgs said:

not really, how much force are you talking about to crush it??

 

If you were to overtighten the retention screws on a cooler, you could most definitely crush the die by accident. It is metal, but it's not entirely solid metal. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It was pretty common to accidentally crush the die back when CPU's didn't have a heatspeaders.


Intel Xeon X5670 @ 4.44GHz, Asus P6X58D-E, 16gb Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600MHz, Asus GeForce GTX 960 Turbo OC, 250gb Samsung SSD, 4tb and 2x 2tb HDD, Fractal Design Define R5

PC 2: Intel Xeon X5677 @ 3.47GHz, HP 0B4Ch (X58), 12gb DDR3 1333MHz, Asus GeForce GTX 660 DC2, 240gb SSD, 1tb HDD

Laptop: Dell Latitude E6430, Intel Core i5-3210M, 6gb DDR3 1600MHz , Intel HD 4000, 120gb SSD

Phone: Huawei Honor 9 64GB Watch: Motorola Moto 360 1st Gen.

General X58 Xeon/i7 discussion

Some other PC's:

Spoiler

PC 3: Intel Xeon W3550 @ 3.07GHz, HP (X58), 4gb DDR3, Asus GeForce GT 610, 120gb SSD, 2tb, 1tb and 500gb HDD

PC 4: Intel Core2 Quad Q9550 @ 3.6GHz, Asus P5KC, 8gb DDR2, Quadro 600, 32gb SSD and 500gb HDD

HTPC: Intel Core2 Quad Q6600 @ 3.0GHz, HP DC7900SFF, 8gb DDR2 800MHz, Asus Radeon HD 6570, 4tb HDD

WinXP PC: Intel Core2 Duo E6300 @ 2.33GHz, Asus P5B, 2gb DDR2 667MHz, NVIDIA GeForce 8500 GT, 32gb SSD and 80gb HDD

RetroPC: Intel Pentium 4 HT @ 3.0GHz, Gigabyte GA-8SGXLFS, 2gb DDR1, ATi Radeon 9800 Pro, 2x 40gb HDD

My first PC: Intel Celeron 333MHz, Diamond Micronics C400, 384mb RAM, Diamond Viper V550 (NVIDIA Riva TNT), 6gb and 8gb HDD

Server: 2x Intel Xeon E5420, Dell PowerEdge 2950, 32gb DDR2, ATI ES1000, 4x 146gb SAS

Dual Opteron PC: 2x AMD Opteron 2218, HP XW9400, 12gb DDR2, ATI Radeon 3650, 500gb HDD

Core2 Duo PC: Intel Core2 Duo E8400, HP DC7800, 4gb DDR2, NVIDIA Quadro FX1700, 1tb and 80gb HDD

Athlon XP PC: AMD Athlon XP 2400+, MSI something, 1,5gb DDR1, ATI Radeon 9200, 40gb HDD

Thinkpad: Intel Core2 Duo T7200, Lenovo Thinkpad T60, 4gb DDR2, ATI Mobility Radeon X1400, 1tb HDD

Pentium 3 PC: Intel Pentium 3 866MHz, Asus CUSL2-C, 512mb RAM, 3DFX VooDoo 3 2000 AGP

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Original PosterOP
Just now, bellabichon said:

If you were to overtighten the retention screws on a cooler, you could most definitely crush the die by accident. It is metal, but it's not entirely solid metal. 

Every air cooler I've ever used has had some sort of mechanism to clearly let the user know when it was "tight enough". Usually it's a spring compressing. When the spring is compressed completely, it's tight. Don't tighten anymore. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, dgsddfgdfhgs said:

not really, how much force are you talking about to crush it??

 

less force than what it takes to open a fresh bottle of soda. They really are fragile.

 

4 minutes ago, corrado33 said:

Yes, that's my point. What I'm asking is why doesn't someone like LTT or Jay delid a CPU then just mount the cooler straight onto the die? 

 

EDIT: I suppose you'd need a special cooler to actually reach down into the socket and touch the die. Shouldn't be too hard to machine a few mm off the sides of an existing cooler. 

direct-die cooling is a thing. You can find crazy people doing it with watercooling.


Studying abroad, ditched the crappy laptop for a mobile workstation/gaming laptop double WITH CRAPPY THERMAL PASTE THAT 1/2 THE CINEBENCH SCORE

Model: HP Omen 17 17-an110ca CPU: i7-8750H (0.125V undervolt) GPU: GTX 1060 6GB Mobile (1700MHz 0.812V) RAM: 12GB DDR4-2666 CL19 (timings are so loose, might as well have lower frequency). Storage: 128GB Toshiba NVMe SSD (KBG30ZMV128G) + 1TB Seagate 7200RPM 2.5" HDD (ST1000LM049-2GH172) Monitor: 1080p 120Hz IPS G-sync

 

The best thing to do is reading the clock speed that doesnt end in a pair of zeros. Software voltage readings are wrong if your motherboard's not a high end model

CPU: i7-2600K 4493MHz (multiplier: 43x) 1.35V (software) --> 1.4V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 104.5MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 10-11-11-30 2T 2133MHz, custom: 10-11-10-30 1T 2229MHz) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 2 exhausts Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (OC'd 150Hz) TN Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

Results: Cinebench R15 Single thread:159 Multi-thread: 770 (thx Meltdown Spectre patch) Super Pi (v1.5 from Techpowerup, PI value output) 16K: 0.11s 1M: 8.4s 32M: 7m 45.9s

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, dgsddfgdfhgs said:

I still dont think cpu nowadays is anywhere near fragile, why cant the die be larger? 

waste of money and resources and silicon. These wafers are expensive


Studying abroad, ditched the crappy laptop for a mobile workstation/gaming laptop double WITH CRAPPY THERMAL PASTE THAT 1/2 THE CINEBENCH SCORE

Model: HP Omen 17 17-an110ca CPU: i7-8750H (0.125V undervolt) GPU: GTX 1060 6GB Mobile (1700MHz 0.812V) RAM: 12GB DDR4-2666 CL19 (timings are so loose, might as well have lower frequency). Storage: 128GB Toshiba NVMe SSD (KBG30ZMV128G) + 1TB Seagate 7200RPM 2.5" HDD (ST1000LM049-2GH172) Monitor: 1080p 120Hz IPS G-sync

 

The best thing to do is reading the clock speed that doesnt end in a pair of zeros. Software voltage readings are wrong if your motherboard's not a high end model

CPU: i7-2600K 4493MHz (multiplier: 43x) 1.35V (software) --> 1.4V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 104.5MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 10-11-11-30 2T 2133MHz, custom: 10-11-10-30 1T 2229MHz) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 2 exhausts Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (OC'd 150Hz) TN Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

Results: Cinebench R15 Single thread:159 Multi-thread: 770 (thx Meltdown Spectre patch) Super Pi (v1.5 from Techpowerup, PI value output) 16K: 0.11s 1M: 8.4s 32M: 7m 45.9s

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, Jurrunio said:

direct-die cooling is a thing. You can find crazy people doing it with watercooling.

Yeah I remember that one vid LTT did of the one watercooled direct die cooler, but then never again. I'm just surprised more people don't do it. I'd imagine it'd be of huge benefit. Removing a layer of thermal paste and a layer of copper seems like it'd be a great idea. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, corrado33 said:

Yeah I remember that one vid LTT did of the one watercooled direct die cooler, but then never again. I'm just surprised more people don't do it. I'd imagine it'd be of huge benefit. Removing a layer of thermal paste and a layer of copper seems like it'd be a great idea. 

why don't you do it? Then you can experience how fragile the dies are yourself.


Studying abroad, ditched the crappy laptop for a mobile workstation/gaming laptop double WITH CRAPPY THERMAL PASTE THAT 1/2 THE CINEBENCH SCORE

Model: HP Omen 17 17-an110ca CPU: i7-8750H (0.125V undervolt) GPU: GTX 1060 6GB Mobile (1700MHz 0.812V) RAM: 12GB DDR4-2666 CL19 (timings are so loose, might as well have lower frequency). Storage: 128GB Toshiba NVMe SSD (KBG30ZMV128G) + 1TB Seagate 7200RPM 2.5" HDD (ST1000LM049-2GH172) Monitor: 1080p 120Hz IPS G-sync

 

The best thing to do is reading the clock speed that doesnt end in a pair of zeros. Software voltage readings are wrong if your motherboard's not a high end model

CPU: i7-2600K 4493MHz (multiplier: 43x) 1.35V (software) --> 1.4V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 104.5MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 10-11-11-30 2T 2133MHz, custom: 10-11-10-30 1T 2229MHz) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 2 exhausts Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (OC'd 150Hz) TN Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

Results: Cinebench R15 Single thread:159 Multi-thread: 770 (thx Meltdown Spectre patch) Super Pi (v1.5 from Techpowerup, PI value output) 16K: 0.11s 1M: 8.4s 32M: 7m 45.9s

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, wojtepanik said:

not caused by overtighten, but from uneven spread of force on one side ( or corner ) of the cooler

Image result for chipped die

Strictly speaking it could occur from too much force, but the pcb is more likely to break in that case instead. Uneven is the bigger problem for sure.


LINK-> Kurald Galain:  The Night Eternal 

Top 5820k, 980ti SLI Build in the World*

CPU: i7-5820k // GPU: SLI MSI 980ti Gaming 6G // Cooling: Full Custom WC //  Mobo: ASUS X99 Sabertooth // Ram: 32GB Crucial Ballistic Sport // Boot SSD: Samsung 850 EVO 500GB

Mass SSD: Crucial M500 960GB  // PSU: EVGA Supernova 850G2 // Case: Fractal Design Define S Windowed // OS: Windows 10 // Mouse: Razer Naga Chroma // Keyboard: Corsair k70 Cherry MX Reds

Headset: Senn RS185 // Monitor: ASUS PG348Q // Devices: Galaxy S9+ - XPS 13 (9343 UHD+) - Samsung Note Tab 7.0 - Lenovo Y580

 

LINK-> Ainulindale: Music of the Ainur 

Prosumer DYI FreeNAS

CPU: Xeon E3-1231v3  // Cooling: Noctua L9x65 //  Mobo: AsRock E3C224D2I // Ram: 16GB Kingston ECC DDR3-1333

HDDs: 4x HGST Deskstar NAS 3TB  // PSU: EVGA 650GQ // Case: Fractal Design Node 304 // OS: FreeNAS

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, wojtepanik said:

not caused by overtighten, but from uneven spread of force on one side ( or corner ) of the cooler

Image result for chipped die

Happened to me, too, back in the day; chipped one of the corners when putting on a heatsink, and I hadn't even started to tighten it down yet. Those things really are quite fragile.


Hand, n. A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody’s pocket.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

Happened to me, too, back in the day; chipped one of the corners when putting on a heatsink, and I hadn't even started to tighten it down yet. Those things really are quite fragile.

brittle is a word I would use

Link to post
Share on other sites

Silicon is quite literally glass. Very fragile and succeptible to corners chipping from uneven pressure. GPUs are direct die cooled and some people will remove IHS and CPU retention devices in order to direct die cool.

 

Manufacturers are protecting their asses by putting IHSs over the dies and avoiding warranty claims. These are $300-$1200 parts that in many cases idiots are assemblimg at home.


Asus Sabertooth X58, Xeon X5680 @4.0Ghz, NZXT Kraken x61, 24Gb Klevv 1600mhz, MSI GTX 1080 Armor,

Seasonic SSR-550rm, Toshiba 1TB HDD, Silicon Power 120Gb SSD, Rosewill Stryker M

 

Dell Optiplex 790, i7-2600, 16GB, Gigabyte Windforce GTX 960 4GB OC, Corsair CX550M 

Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, asand1 said:

Silicon is quite literally glass. 

Glass is silica (SiO2). Silicon wafers are nearly 100% pure silicon, doped with boron or phosphorus to turn them into semiconductors.

 

Furthermore, the durability of a substance is not determined by its chemical composition, but rather the structure of the bonds between atoms (e.g. graphite vs diamond).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×