What PSU do I neee?

[capsock]

This is my first time building a gaming rig and I have a question about the PSU that I will require for this build (I do want to overclock at some point as well):

 

Case: Define C

Motherboard: AsRock PRO4

CPU: Ryzen 7 1700

GPU: MSI GTX 1060 6gb

Memory: 2x4GB corsair LPX vengeance 2400MHz

Storage: 1x 240GB SSD (main use) and 1x 1TB HDD (for bigger files)

Fans: 2-4 120/140mm fans

Currently I dont think my current one (450watts bronze+) will be enough for just normal gaming on this build, so what do you recommend? 

As I mentioned above I do want to overclock in the future so i need to know how many watts im working with

[lmeneses]

450w should be fine, but it will be cutting it close. If you wanted to purchase a new one, I would get 550w 

[Electric_Eclectic]

Strongly recommend Seasonic Power Supplies (and they make the actual PSUs for some of the other well regarded names out there I won't mention but you can see the product design overlap in some major vendors if you look....), but even if you DON'T use their power supplies, they have a nice calculator here:

 

https://seasonic.com/wattage-calculator

 

I plugged in those specs, and it came up about 410 watts of draw, which tells me you maaaaaybe could re-use your existing IF budget was so tight that you wanted no headroom.

 

Personally, I like a little headroom for that time you upgrade your graphics card, add a drive, or overclock in the future (as you mentioned) so I'd only re-use an existing PSU if it were 500W or more and budget were a concern. Assuming you're buying a new one, I agree with their recommendation to get a 650W - most of the higher quality lines don't come too much smaller these days anyhow.

[seon123]

A good 450W would be plenty. That's about twice as much power as the system needs under load. What PSU do you currently have?

Formula 450W, Whisper M 450W or Straight Power 11 450W, if you're going to get a new good PSU. 

[capsock]

40 minutes ago, seon123 said:

A good 450W would be plenty. That's about twice as much power as the system needs under load. What PSU do you currently have?

Formula 450W, Whisper M 450W or Straight Power 11 450W, if you're going to get a new good PSU. 

i have the CX 450M currently

[seon123]

3 minutes ago, capsock said:

i have the CX 450M currently

That's absolutely fine for a 1060. 

[lmeneses]

58 minutes ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

Strongly recommend Seasonic Power Supplies (and they make the actual PSUs for some of the other well regarded names out there I won't mention but you can see the product design overlap in some major vendors if you look....), but even if you DON'T use their power supplies, they have a nice calculator here:

 

https://seasonic.com/wattage-calculator

 

I plugged in those specs, and it came up about 410 watts of draw, which tells me you maaaaaybe could re-use your existing IF budget was so tight that you wanted no headroom.

 

Personally, I like a little headroom for that time you upgrade your graphics card, add a drive, or overclock in the future (as you mentioned) so I'd only re-use an existing PSU if it were 500W or more and budget were a concern. Assuming you're buying a new one, I agree with their recommendation to get a 650W - most of the higher quality lines don't come too much smaller these days anyhow.

Don't just recommend a brand. Some brands can have shite psu's too; if you're gonna recommend anything, recommend a certain model of psu from the brand.

[capsock]

3 minutes ago, lmeneses said:

Don't just recommend a brand. Some brands can have shite psu's too; if you're gonna recommend anything, recommend a certain model of psu from the brand.

Which 550w/600w psu would you recommend? I dont want to spend too much considering i am on a slight budget, I think 80+ bronze psu would be fine?

[lmeneses]

Just now, capsock said:

Which 550w psu would you recommend? I dont want to spend too much considering i am on a slight budget, I think 80+ bronze psu would be fine?

you asked on a good day lmao, rn on newegg.com there's a Corsair TX550M semi mod gold rated psu on sale for $40 https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139210&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=IGNEFL101618&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL101618-_-EMC-101618-Index-_-PowerSupplies-_-17139210-S0O&ignorebbr=1

[lmeneses]

Tier 2 rated PSU as well I believe 

[capsock]

1 minute ago, lmeneses said:

you asked on a good day lmao, rn on newegg.com there's a Corsair TX550M semi mod gold rated psu on sale for $40 https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139210&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=IGNEFL101618&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL101618-_-EMC-101618-Index-_-PowerSupplies-_-17139210-S0O&ignorebbr=1

Sadly I dont live in the US (UK unfortunately) and the cost of this psu is around $72 i believe (when converted from gbp to usd), however I may be reconsidering going over the budget slightly if it means getting a good psu lol

[lmeneses]

10 minutes ago, capsock said:

Sadly I dont live in the US (UK unfortunately) and the cost of this psu is around $72 i believe (when converted from gbp to usd), however I may be reconsidering going over the budget slightly if it means getting a good psu lol

Oh, that's wank, are there no sales on Newegg's UK website? But yes, the psu is usually not an expensive item, but it definitely is not one to cheap out on 

[capsock]

8 minutes ago, lmeneses said:

Oh, that's wank, are there no sales on Newegg's UK website? But yes, the psu is usually not an expensive item, but it definitely is not one to cheap out on 

I just had a look on PSUs and whatnot and and found a cheaper one, CX Series CX550 for around $13 cheaper, however it is only 80+ bronze unlike the pther gold plus corsair psu. I think there are better us than uk deals simply because of the shipping cost, i think i may have decided on the one you suggested though

[lmeneses]

5 minutes ago, capsock said:

I just had a look on PSUs and whatnot and and found a cheaper one, CX Series CX550 for around $13 cheaper, however it is only 80+ bronze unlike the pther gold plus corsair psu. I think there are better us than uk deals simply because of the shipping cost, i think i may have decided on the one you suggested though

Oh, i'm pretty sure there are cheaper gold rated 550w PSUs, but I wouldn't know which ones atm 

[capsock]

2 minutes ago, lmeneses said:

Oh, i'm pretty sure there are cheaper gold rated 550w PSUs, but I wouldn't know which ones atm 

That's totally fine , I have actually found this psu cheaper on the us amazon than on the uk newegg, thank you for the help

[Stefan Payne]

 

 

10 hours ago, capsock said:

CPU: Ryzen 7 1700

GPU: MSI GTX 1060 6gb

 

Currently I dont think my current one (450watts bronze+) will be enough for just normal gaming on this build, so what do you recommend? 

As I mentioned above I do want to overclock in the future so i need to know how many watts im working with

You are wrong.

450W is more than enough.

I really have to push my Ryzen 1700X to get close to 450W Primary and that's with an overclocked RX480 (PC Red Devil).

450W is plenty, if you have a good quality PSU - and it seems like you already have some OKish unit...

8 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

Strongly recommend Seasonic Power Supplies

Recommending by brand are horse shit because every brand has garbage in their lineup.

Especially Seasonic with their almost 10 year old Group Regulated things that are inferior to other low end/System Integrator units like Cougar VTX.

 

8 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

(and they make the actual PSUs for some of the other well regarded names out there I won't mention but you can see the product design overlap in some major vendors if you look....)

Irrelevant.

And FSP makes PSU for more reputable brands than Seasonic does. Does that make them better?
Well, According to you it does...

 

8 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

, but even if you DON'T use their power supplies, they have a nice calculator here:

 

https://seasonic.com/wattage-calculator

Outervision...

That junk overestimates the real consumption by 50-100%.

 

Calculate an i7-3930K with an RX480 (1330MHz) a 7200rpm HDD; SSD, 8 Sticks of Memory.

I got around 350W Primary with a Platinum PSU.

Those things tell me I have to get a 550 or 600W PSU at least.

It ran without any issues on a 400W...

 

8 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

I plugged in those specs, and it came up about 410 watts of draw, which tells me you maaaaaybe could re-use your existing IF budget was so tight that you wanted no headroom.

410W is total nonsense for an unoverclocked Ryzen 7/1700 with a GTX1060.

2/3 of that makes more sense -> 275W.

And that is where he will be, with a good/efficient Board and no OC, he will be around 200-300W Power Consumption. 400W is rediculous for that system...

 

8 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

Personally, I like a little headroom for that time you upgrade your graphics card, add a drive, or overclock in the future (as you mentioned) so I'd only re-use an existing PSU if it were 500W or more and budget were a concern.

...for a 250W System (+/-50W)...

He already has around 200W Headroom and more doesn't give you any advantage at all.

And a drive is like 10W Primary at worse.

OC a Ryzen?? Why? The Boost gets you higher clocks...

 

8 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

Assuming you're buying a new one, I agree with their recommendation to get a 650W - most of the higher quality lines don't come too much smaller these days anyhow.

For what 650W???
So that the PSU is loeded with 30% load??

Makes no sense.

And with higher wattage you more often than not get a higher RPM fan as well. So nothing gained here.

 

Especially since he already has a perfectly fine PSU and there is no need to replace it.

And a Replacement with a Seasonic S12II-Bronze (or M12II-Bronze) with 620W wich is an insolence in 2018. Especially for the price they are asking.

 

8 hours ago, capsock said:

i have the CX 450M currently

...wich is a decent enough PSU for your system wich has my minimum required specs for a somewhat usable PSU -> independant regulated voltages.

7 hours ago, capsock said:

Which 550w/600w psu would you recommend? I dont want to spend too much considering i am on a slight budget, I think 80+ bronze psu would be fine?

None!

And with limiting to 80plus bronze, you're in for a sidegrade at best, so that makes really no sense.

So if you upgrade the PSU you should aim for an actual upgrade and the worst thing you could get is a Bitfenix Formula 450-550W.

 

Better things to get: be quiet Straight Power 11, Bitfenix Whisper M - 450/550W or Cougar GX-F 550W.

 

BUT: its a waste of money.

Spend it on something else. Get a Pizza from the Italian guy or something at the Greek's...

 

 

So stick with what you got, its fine for your system. You don't need to replace it (yet)!

If you have issues like it is too loud for you, THAT is the only reason to replace the PSU right now.

 

[Electric_Eclectic]

On 10/17/2018 at 12:58 AM, Stefan Payne said:

Recommending by brand are horse shit because every brand has garbage in their lineup.

That's actually fair - I accept that critique. I sort of assume people here asking about these kinds of things is also going to be able to differentiate a company's product stack and will also research specific models for reviews, but that's a fair criticism. I am the kind of buyer who tends to buy the higher-end offerings and read reviews of what I buy, and so I'm probably spared running into the more cut-rate products in a vendors line and I shouldn't be blind to that fact that all vendors probably offer cut-rate models with correspondingly cut-rate parts.

 

For the record, I'm running this machine on a Seasonic X-series 650W power supply that was very well reviewed and I'd encourage anyone to read reviews on any part they buy.

On 10/17/2018 at 12:58 AM, Stefan Payne said:

Irrelevant.

And FSP makes PSU for more reputable brands than Seasonic does. Does that make them better?
Well, According to you it does... 

I see you're in Germany, so I'll cut you some slack that maybe you're just a very good non-native English speaker. But you're confusing the word "and" in my parenthetical note with the word "because." I never said that BECAUSE they make power supplies for many other brands that made them good. I said they were good, and parenthetically noted that they do make power supplies for many other brands I see well-reviewed PSUs for. I did not state or imply one caused the other. (To be explicit: it does not.)

 

On 10/17/2018 at 12:58 AM, Stefan Payne said:

That junk overestimates the real consumption by 50-100%.

It does overestimate, but then I believe in headroom in PSUs for a variety of reasons, and I think anyone needing help sizing is likely to UNDER estimate - forget to add all those smaller components, not know how much they might OC in the future, and not leave headroom for those much higher TDP future graphics cards... My wife's latest upgrade went from a GPU that managed to stay under the 75W power from the MB to one requiring *2* power connectors - glad I planned some headroom in hers!

 

On 10/17/2018 at 12:58 AM, Stefan Payne said:

And that is where he will be, with a good/efficient Board and no OC, he will be around 200-300W Power Consumption. 400W is rediculous for that system...

Actually, since many PSUs are at peak efficiency right in the middle of their stated maximum wattage range, if your estimate of draw were actually correct, that's not ridiculous at all. (This is another reason to buy PSUs with a moderate amount of headroom.)

On 10/17/2018 at 12:58 AM, Stefan Payne said:

OC a Ryzen?? Why? The Boost gets you higher clocks... 

I am not arguing this point and it's off-topic, but I'm legitimately asking - is Ryzen different than Intel in some way I don't know about that makes OCing not worth it? Turbo boost is what it is, but you can run Intel CPUs well above their stated Turbo boost "max" and get worthwhile performance gains at the cost of power and heat. Is that not true for Ryzen?

On 10/17/2018 at 12:58 AM, Stefan Payne said:

For what 650W???
So that the PSU is loeded with 30% load??

Makes no sense.

And with higher wattage you more often than not get a higher RPM fan as well. So nothing gained here.

I fully admit I've made the case for a lot of headroom here, and there's a legit argument for modestly less. Please do not take my next response to be ignoring the validity of another viewpoint, but I'm going to explain mine:

 

1. PSUs are more efficient at often FAR less than their peak loads, so a sizeable amount of headroom is warranted above your expected peak draw for efficiency.

2. I keep my machines for a long time, and tend to upgrade them. I like a margin of safety and will err on the side of suggesting the same for others when I don't know their whole situation. Having a little MORE headroom is less terrible than having not enough. You never know when someone is going to decide to upgrade by sticking a second graphics card in their PC 2 years later.

3. PSUs designed to run at higher watts tend to have components designed to deal with those higher extremes. Contrary to your assertion about higher RPM fans, my X650 has strong enough passive cooling combined with the active option to deal with 650W that under my typically much lower loads, my fan actually doesn't spin at all. (I admit that feature is not universal so that benefit only accrues to those who seek it out but I suspect there's still a benefit for components that can survive under higher-load conditions.)

4. To be honest, PSU's like everything else fell victim to the marketing "bigger number is better" hype. While the PSU market has thankfully backed off the days when people with 250 watt draws were buying KILOWATT power supplies because of that, most manufacturers have responded to that in a way that means their product stack is weighted. By that, I mean you can find a better range of quality options farther up the stack than you can at the bottom. There are more good options in the 650W range than the 450W range, because that is what people are buying. That's a bit perverse, but it's the reality.

5. There is typically not a substantial dollar amount to pay up 100 or 200W, especially when you're moving from the lower less common end of the spectrum into a higher-volume segment of the market. Case in point, the Corsair CX450M he's got only costs $10 less than the CX650M right now.

 

On 10/16/2018 at 5:16 PM, capsock said:

I just had a look on PSUs and whatnot and and found a cheaper one, CX Series CX550 for around $13 cheaper, however it is only 80+ bronze unlike the pther gold plus corsair psu. I think there are better us than uk deals simply because of the shipping cost, i think i may have decided on the one you suggested though

OP: You have the benefit of some varying opinions here - which is good. Take it all in. If you are on a tighter budget, I stand by my original recommendation that you might be able to squeeze a little more life out of the existing, but were it me, I'd be looking at a new one since they don't last FOREVER and the pain of having to buy one when you don't expect it and being out your machine until you do is worse to me than buying a new PSU for my new build. Whether you buy a new one now, or later, I'd give yourself more headroom than the 450 allows for - a 550 is probably fine but I'd personally go a 650 - obviously others would go lower. I've made my case there already.

 

I'm going to make one more - I'd look hard at what you get at different price points AND watch for sales if you can be patient. For example, when looking up the 650W equivalent of your CX450M on the US newegg, I see the CX650M at $59 which is reasonable, but I also noticed the RM650X at $99. That's an 80+gold and because it's higher up the stack, it comes with higher quality components AND has that semi-passive fan option I mentioned earlier - fanless at low load/heat. I only looked at ONE review of it, but already I can tell that if it were me, I'd be looking at more reviews of it and seriously considering the upgrade because if I were buying a new PSU, that'd be money well spent. (First, I have the money for it, and second that there are at least 4 and sometimes more computers in my home office, most of which are on but running low loads so I value the reduction in fan noise more than most people.)

 

Now, that's a huge jump in price over $59 and twice the $49 you would spend on the 450W version of yours, BUT right now there's a $20 rebate putting that at $79, so in this moment in the US, I'd be spending just $20 to go from the CX650M to the RM650X which is in my very quick review a much higher quality, quieter part. That specific scenario won't maybe apply in the UK but if you are patient maybe something similar does. (I'm not specifically endorsing Corsair or that model, I only used it as an example of navigating the price points in a product stack, because I happened to be using your current PSU as a base.) All that is my long way of saying I'd seriously consider keeping your existing PSU strung along a little longer if it means that you can pull the trigger on a deal like the one I just described on an objectively better product.

 

Good luck to you - happy building!

 

[luigi90210]

On 10/16/2018 at 11:52 AM, capsock said:

This is my first time building a gaming rig and I have a question about the PSU that I will require for this build (I do want to overclock at some point as well):

 

Case: Define C

Motherboard: AsRock PRO4

CPU: Ryzen 7 1700

GPU: MSI GTX 1060 6gb

Memory: 2x4GB corsair LPX vengeance 2400MHz

Storage: 1x 240GB SSD (main use) and 1x 1TB HDD (for bigger files)

Fans: 2-4 120/140mm fans

Currently I dont think my current one (450watts bronze+) will be enough for just normal gaming on this build, so what do you recommend? 

As I mentioned above I do want to overclock in the future so i need to know how many watts im working with

your 450w psu will be fine however i tend to go overkill on the psu for single card systems so there is room to upgrade

id recommend getting an antec truepower or earthwatts 750w that way you can have enough room to upgrade to a vega64 card if needed and using less than what the psu asks for usually means a quieter system especially if the psu you get has a 0rpm fan mode

[Stefan Payne]

5 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

That's actually fair - I accept that critique. I sort of assume people here asking about these kinds of things is also going to be able to differentiate a company's product stack and will also research specific models for reviews, but that's a fair criticism. I am the kind of buyer who tends to buy the higher-end offerings and read reviews of what I buy, and so I'm probably spared running into the more cut-rate products in a vendors line and I shouldn't be blind to that fact that all vendors probably offer cut-rate models with correspondingly cut-rate parts.

Never assume anything

Because with some Companys (Seasonic), people still assume their Entry Level, group regulated unit, though sold for a mid rangish price is still a good buy although it came out almost 10 years ago and didn't get any real changes...

 

There is one manufacturer however that has phased out all Group regulated units but only in ATX format and only 400W and above. But do I go around and tell people to go buy that brand? No, I always recommend specific models. Because that's how you do it.

5 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

For the record, I'm running this machine on a Seasonic X-series 650W power supply that was very well reviewed and I'd encourage anyone to read reviews on any part they buy.

For the Record, I own a Seasonic P-660 and a couple of G-550 based units but also other units like Bitfenix Formula, Whisper M, Corsair 750HXi, Chieftec Power Smart 750W, 750W Xilence Performance X, 550W Cougar GX-F and two Platinum Silverstone units. And a couple others as well...

 

Reviews only do so much, there are things that Reviews do miss or are impossible to review...

So a good review doesn't really make a good PSU, it only makes a good reviewed unit...

 

5 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

I see you're in Germany, so I'll cut you some slack that maybe you're just a very good non-native English speaker. But you're confusing the word "and" in my parenthetical note with the word "because." I never said that BECAUSE they make power supplies for many other brands that made them good. I said they were good, and parenthetically noted that they do make power supplies for many other brands I see well-reviewed PSUs for. I did not state or imply one caused the other. (To be explicit: it does not.)

No, its just irrelevant information that doesn't tell you anything, you used it as an argument, I showed that it wasn't a useful one.

The best PSU for computers aren't really available for Cosnumers anyway in most cases, they are only sold directly to OEMs like DELL and HP.

I have one of the best 500W Bronze PSU ever made here -> Delta DPS-500QB. 

Was available for a time for 14,95€ -> https://www.tech-review.de/include.php?path=content/articles.php&contentid=16507&PHPKITSID=e90b109a3e17eb4494f85011e4399cb8

 

5 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

It does overestimate, but then I believe in headroom in PSUs for a variety of reasons, and I think anyone needing help sizing is likely to UNDER estimate - forget to add all those smaller components, not know how much they might OC in the future, and not leave headroom for those much higher TDP future graphics cards... My wife's latest upgrade went from a GPU that managed to stay under the 75W power from the MB to one requiring *2* power connectors - glad I planned some headroom in hers!

You are missing that some Power Calculators make money with selling PSU through Affiliate Links or Partnerships with PSU Manufacturers.

And there you have a financial incentive to overestimate.

 

And nobody said that you should use a 350W PSU when your system uses around 350W, we all agree on the "headroom" thingy kinda, the difference is how much. 50W?? 250W?? 500W??

 

And higher wattages also can come with disadvantages like higher fan RPM thus noise in all circumstances...

And also higher prices, lower efficiency under lower load situations in many cases. 

 

5 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

Actually, since many PSUs are at peak efficiency right in the middle of their stated maximum wattage range, if your estimate of draw were actually correct, that's not ridiculous at all. (This is another reason to buy PSUs with a moderate amount of headroom.)

In the middle is not 30-40%, where many PSU lie. Peak for a Cooler Master V550 is at around 30%.

Many others are at 40%. And even if we argue, the difference in 230VAC is very small. We're talking about 0,5% or less in a 30-60 or even 70% Frame.

 

So the "peak Efficiency at 50%" meme, isn't even that true and the efficiency curve is very flat these days.

 

For example:
https://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/netzteile/chieftec_csn-550c_compact_series_sfx/s03.php

Peak Efficiency around 30-50% at 230VAC, 

And from 30-70% load exactly 0,5% Difference.

At 115VAC the efficiency etween around 25 and 60% is between around 90 and 90,8%

 

https://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/netzteile/thermaltake_toughpower_irgb_plus/s03.php

https://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/netzteile/be_quiet_straight_power_11/s03.php

 

https://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/netzteile/bitfenix_formula_gold_450/s03.php

https://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/netzteile/bitfenix_whisper_m/s03.php

https://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/netzteile/cougar_gx-s/s03.php

https://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/netzteile/enermax_platimax_df/s03.php

Just a couple of examples of how the efficiency "curve" really looks with modern PSU.

5 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

I am not arguing this point and it's off-topic, but I'm legitimately asking - is Ryzen different than Intel in some way I don't know about that makes OCing not worth it? Turbo boost is what it is, but you can run Intel CPUs well above their stated Turbo boost "max" and get worthwhile performance gains at the cost of power and heat. Is that not true for Ryzen?

Yes, that it boosts higher out of the box with Single Core Boost than with manual OC. Even here at LTT there is a Ryzen Video about overclocking - wich also archieved lower all core clockrates than Boost.

Also you loose the Boost and idle clocks.

 

And what you usually get is like 200-300MHz max, so around 10% or so. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

1. PSUs are more efficient at often FAR less than their peak loads, so a sizeable amount of headroom is warranted above your expected peak draw for efficiency.

Only garbage PSU are advertized with their Peak Load, no decent manufacturer advertizes the maximum, Peak Load. They are rated for Continuous.

And the last time I did research (and looked at Reviews on Techpowerup), the difference between 20-80% Load was around 1,5% points and another 1% at 80-100% load...

 

BUT: THe Efficiency under ~20% drops dramatically, so you might gain (half) a percent on the load you use with your PC while loosing 5-10% on the lower end.

Yeah, it can be that drastic...

And modern PCs idle at around 50W (+/- 20W)

 

5 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

2. I keep my machines for a long time, and tend to upgrade them. I like a margin of safety and will err on the side of suggesting the same for others when I don't know their whole situation. Having a little MORE headroom is less terrible than having not enough. You never know when someone is going to decide to upgrade by sticking a second graphics card in their PC 2 years later.

I show you what a manufacturer says about his units:

That should prove that you can use a PSU at 100% for a long period of time, doesn't it?

 

But nobody really advertizes to use it at 100% load at all. maybe 70-80% with Worst case...

You could however, as PSU are rated for it

At high ambient of 40 or 50°C by the way...

5 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

3. PSUs designed to run at higher watts tend to have components designed to deal with those higher extremes. Contrary to your assertion about higher RPM fans, my X650 has strong enough passive cooling combined with the active option to deal with 650W that under my typically much lower loads, my fan actually doesn't spin at all. (I admit that feature is not universal so that benefit only accrues to those who seek it out but I suspect there's still a benefit for components that can survive under higher-load conditions.)

No

Look at Techpowerup's Review of the RM550x and RM650i (or was it an x as well?)

Both units are the same on the secondary, but have different components on the primary.

 

And semi fanless is causing more problems than it solves...

For example:

https://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/11/13/corsair_rm750_750w_power_supply_review/

 

And that the Components are designed for the Higher Wattage should be obvious - as that the 60HP car has a different clutch than the 260HP one due to that.

It doesn't mean however that the higher wattage are any quieter or offer an advantage at all.

 

With many modern PSU you often have the same capacitors throughout all models of one series.

For example 450W Bitfenix Whisper M uses the same Cpas than the 850W Whisper M (wich I own)...

 

5 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

4. To be honest, PSU's like everything else fell victim to the marketing "bigger number is better" hype. While the PSU market has thankfully backed off the days when people with 250 watt draws were buying KILOWATT power supplies because of that, most manufacturers have responded to that in a way that means their product stack is weighted. By that, I mean you can find a better range of quality options farther up the stack than you can at the bottom. There are more good options in the 650W range than the 450W range, because that is what people are buying. That's a bit perverse, but it's the reality.

Its not (just) what people are buying, its also what the stuff cost in manufacturing.

In some cases the 450W doesn't cost a noticable amount less than the 550W version, so the manufacturers need to cut their revenue, wich isn't always desirable. So the 450W Version is phased out and scrapped - for example Cooler Master V-Series.

 

In my Region, 450W sell better than in other but the Difference to the 550W is small so its safe to assume that many people might choose those instead.

 

5 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

5. There is typically not a substantial dollar amount to pay up 100 or 200W, especially when you're moving from the lower less common end of the spectrum into a higher-volume segment of the market. Case in point, the Corsair CX450M he's got only costs $10 less than the CX650M right now.

10 Bucks you could have spent elsewhere and gotten either a Pizza or a higher quality PSU.

 

For example, your PC needs/consumes 350W and you have the choice between a 450W Bitfenix Formula or a 650W Corsair CX (or CXM), wich would you choose?

I'd choose the Bitfenix all the time because it is the higher quality PSU, higher efficiency, lower noise.

I'm an advocate of Quality over Quantity...

And right now there aren't many good or even decent 80plus Bronze PSU available because it makes little to no sense for the manufacturers - as they need a different design, that is cheaper than the Goldish one wich means a worse PSU because you have to save on every point to make a somewhat useful PSU...

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

That's actually fair - I accept that critique. I sort of assume people here asking about these kinds of things is also going to be able to differentiate a company's product stack and will also research specific models for reviews, but that's a fair criticism.

 

If they can't even pick the wattage themselves or understand the feature set that differentiates one PSU from another, how do you expect them to actually understand the product stack within a particular company's product line?

[Electric_Eclectic]

4 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

So a good review doesn't really make a good PSU, it only makes a good reviewed unit...

I suppose. But short of owning it and doing your own review, reading a wide variety of reviews is all we have. Some of the independent reviewers who really put a PSU through their paces, and reading the lot of those is the best information we have as consumers. So here I think you're just being argumentative.

4 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

No, its just irrelevant information that doesn't tell you anything, you used it as an argument, I showed that it wasn't a useful one. 

That's not true - I didn't use it as an argument proving the quality of Seasonic power supplies. It was a parenthetical aside, sharing some information about the vendor I was talking about that I thought the OP might not know. I stated my recommendation of a brand (and later accepted your valid critique of that less-than-model specific advice, I might add), shared some information about that brand, and shared a link which the OP could use with any brand of PSU to get some ideas on wattage. The information supplied was information about the brand and nothing more. If you don't realize that after re-reading what I wrote AND my detailed explanation and explicit statement in response to your first objection, then I'm not sure I can help you here and I'll just move on.

 

4 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

You are missing that some Power Calculators make money with selling PSU through Affiliate Links or Partnerships with PSU Manufacturers.

And there you have a financial incentive to overestimate.

I'm not missing that. It just doesn't change my stance that the overestimated recommendation is fine for anyone looking for recommendations, for the reasons I outlined. You have a difference of opinion about the amount of headroom that's appropriate, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean I'm not aware of the bias involved in using a tool from a manufacturer of a product to make purchasing decisions about that product.

 

6 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

And semi fanless is causing more problems than it solves...

For example:

https://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/11/13/corsair_rm750_750w_power_supply_review/

 

And that the Components are designed for the Higher Wattage should be obvious - as that the 60HP car has a different clutch than the 260HP one due to that.

It doesn't mean however that the higher wattage are any quieter or offer an advantage at all.

OK, so you found AN example of a improper implementation (their words) - that means this causes more problems than it resolves? Not at all. That's a great reason to buy my Seasonic X650 over the RM750, but not any damning conclusion about the technology in general. That's like saying you can't trust ANY cryptography because some people implement it wrong. This is a good argument for reading lots of independent reviews before buying any specific model, nothing more.

 

As for being more quiet, I still stand by my original statement, If a PSU has a higher maximum threshold for wattage, it also will tend to have a higher capacity to dissipate the resulting heat. That doesn't mean EVERY 650W PSU will run quieter than EVERY 400W PSU when running at 300 watts (especially if you're comparing only models without a fanless option), but I'll take my bets on the averages there. I will also continue to take the quiet that hybrid-fanless tech brings. It's been a winning move for my home office and I will not buy another PSU that doesn't have that feature.

7 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

Its not (just) what people are buying, its also what the stuff cost in manufacturing.

In some cases the 450W doesn't cost a noticable amount less than the 550W version, so the manufacturers need to cut their revenue, wich isn't always desirable.

OK, that's another valid reason/cause; the result is still that there are a wider variety of good options higher up the product stack in wattage.  (Or to be more precise, in the middle of the product stack - I admit I've never looked at the variety of options at 850+ watts because I've never needed to consider those wattages, but intuitively I expect the options thin out at some point for some of the same reasons.)

 

7 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

10 Bucks you could have spent elsewhere and gotten either a Pizza or a higher quality PSU.

 

For example, your PC needs/consumes 350W and you have the choice between a 450W Bitfenix Formula or a 650W Corsair CX (or CXM), wich would you choose?

I suppose you can debate the relative value of ten bucks, but I'd submit that even if you fully replace your PCs every 3 years (which I personally don't), worrying about a $10 price difference over X years seems foolish.

 

To the second part of that, that's a false choice. I won't knowingly buy a crappy PSU at any wattage or price point, to be sure, but I'm also not going to handicap myself with a lower wattage quality PSU if I think there's a chance I'll need the headroom - I'll just pay up for a higher wattage version of the same PSU or find another vendor, or another sale. The price difference is rarely if ever an insurmountable obstacle to getting quality PSU with enough headroom.

 

I've spent enough time here intermittently as I'm preparing to leave for a long weekend, so all argumentativeness (is that a word?) aside, I really think we just have a difference of opinion about the value of headroom. I've already acknowledged the validity of other viewpoints on that topic and we've made our cases to the OP, so I don't see any point to continuing this debate.

[Electric_Eclectic]

6 hours ago, jonnyGURU said:

16 hours ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

That's actually fair - I accept that critique. I sort of assume people here asking about these kinds of things is also going to be able to differentiate a company's product stack and will also research specific models for reviews, but that's a fair criticism.

 

If they can't even pick the wattage themselves or understand the feature set that differentiates one PSU from another, how do you expect them to actually understand the product stack within a particular company's product line?

 

Faith in humanity, and faith that those people who land somewhere like here asking question like this are the people who:

 

1. Know what they don't know, and have the humility to ask for help.

2. Are internet-savvy enough to know they should seek more than 1 opinion on the internet

3. Care enough about the result to put in the time to research the choices they make and to learn enough to build their own PC.

 

I admit my faith in humanity is not absolute and is shaken by some experiences *cough*TheVergeBuildsAPC*cough* but sometimes it's all you've got.

 

EDIT: If you're the actual* JonnyGuru I am thinking of and not just a fan, then I should say thank you. I recognize that name as someone of come across in my own attempts to research products and I bet I even read your review in the pool of reviews I read of my current PSU.

[Stefan Payne]

25 minutes ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

OK, so you found AN example of a improper implementation (their words) - that means this causes more problems than it resolves? Not at all. That's a great reason to buy my Seasonic X650

No, I have a couple more. Including your Seasonic X650.

If you use it in the right load range, the fan of your unit will constantly start/stop/start/stop...

And there were a ton of complaints about that when the unit was new and just came out...

 

And I also could force the OTP on my 750W Silverstone Strider Platinum to trip (used it under higher load, unplugged it, restarted the PC and it switched off while loading Windows), the SX700-LPT heats up the Harddrive above it (in a RVZ-01), on another unit the fan constantly starts/stops and causes a hum with a hiss when the fan starts and instantly stops just to start again a couple of seconds later.

 

So no, its not one example of an improper implementation, there's a ton of examples about Semi Fanless causing trouble.

 

In short, if it is implemented, the user should be able to choose to let the fan run constantly...

And there's a ton of cases where it causes issues, fans constantly starting/stopping or having noticalbe Motor/Bearing noise. All that could have been avoided if they wouldn't have used this Semi-Fanless thing that only makes sense when you use high RPM fans, wich many of the ones I mentioned here don't even do...

 

Quote

As for being more quiet, I still stand by my original statement, If a PSU has a higher maximum threshold for wattage, it also will tend to have a higher capacity to dissipate the resulting heat.

 

 

And where should this "higher capacity for Heat" come from?!
You have three options:

a) bigger heatsinks

b) higher airflow

c) let the thing burn (=get hotter).

 

Now lets look at Bitfenix Formula,. Whisper M, Seasonic X/P Series, Prime, Focus, Corsair RMx 2018 (550-850W) for example.

 

All of those use the same heatsinks. Bitfenix Whisper M switches the fan from 0,45A to a 0,6A with 650-850W. I'm not sure about the Formula. Seasonic tends to use 1 fan for the whole series.

 

In general, you have to look at the PSU individually, there is no generalization!
Some PSU switch plattforms at certain wattage, often it is between 750 or 850W. Some (Silverstone Strider Platinum) even higher than 850W.

Quote

That doesn't mean EVERY 650W PSU will run quieter than EVERY 400W PSU when running at 300 watts (especially if you're comparing only models without a fanless option), but I'll take my bets on the averages there. I will also continue to take the quiet that hybrid-fanless tech brings. It's been a winning move for my home office and I will not buy another PSU that doesn't have that feature.

https://www.hartware.de/2012/11/27/be-quiet-dark-power-pro-10-650w/8/

550W at 100% load quieter than all other at 10%.

 

And your claim violates the laws of thermodynamics as the two PSU have to have at least different heatsinks if not different Heatsinks...

 

Bitfenix Whisper M has almost double the fan RPM with the 650W (~700rpm) over the 450 and 550W (~450rpm). 

 

Buttom line:
At best they are the same.

At worst the higher wattage ones are louder because of the higher RPM fan...

 

We aren't talking about mechanical work here like a Car Motor and a wider transmission that lowers the RPM of the Engine with higher power versions.

ie my Toyota had around 2500rpm or so at 120km/h IIRC; the Scenic 2 we have right now is around 3500rpm or so. The Scenic has around 100HP, the Toyota ~240HP...

 

But that has NOTHING to do with electronics as the only relevant factors are target temperature, heatsinks and fan speed. 

For your claim, that a 650W is quieter than a 450W, to be true, you have to allow the 650W to run hotter than the 450W. Ähh...

And in some cases you have something like the ~550W is OKish, the 650W is garbage, the 750W is OKish again. I'm talking about ~700rpm and ~900rpm...

[Electric_Eclectic]

2 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

22 minutes ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

OK, so you found AN example of a improper implementation (their words) - that means this causes more problems than it resolves? Not at all. That's a great reason to buy my Seasonic X650

No, I have a couple more. Including your Seasonic X650.

If you use it in the right load range, the fan of your unit will constantly start/stop/start/stop...

And there were a ton of complaints about that when the unit was new and just came out...

You could have tons more examples of poor implementations of an idea, and it doesn't mean the idea isn't worth pursuing.

I could find literally 100 examples of poorly implemented cryptography that made that implementation insecure, but I don't think YOU would stop insisting that any internet bank you used was using crypto. Follow me?

8 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

In short, if it is implemented, the user should be able to choose to let the fan run constantly...

That's a good idea. I actually am pretty sure my own has such a switch, but I am not going to open it up right now and look, because I wasn't lying about packing for a long weekend and this laundry isn't going to do itself.

[Stefan Payne]

Checkj my edit, I added a couple of stuff you aren't correct with...

4 minutes ago, Electric_Eclectic said:

You could have tons more examples of poor implementations of an idea, and it doesn't mean the idea isn't worth pursuing.

You want a quieter unit.

Why not just reduce the fanspeed and put a good quality fan with low motor noise in it?

 

basically like this:

https://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/netzteile/be_quiet_straight_power_11/s09.php

 

You don't have any hotspots, you don't have no OTP tripping at medium load, you don't have no fan starting/stopping. 

And the Temperature is 10 or even 20K less than on the Semi-Fanless one.

And when a cheapish company like Xilence  can do something similar with a really cheap 230VAC Gold unit, made by a cheapish manufacturer (XHY), wich got the fan down to 350rpm with a 750W unit, why can't it big companys also archieve that?

There's another example with very low fan RPM (also 350rpm with 750W), wich is ruined by a crap fan.

 

Quote

I could find literally 100 examples of poorly implemented cryptography that made that implementation insecure, but I don't think YOU would stop insisting that any internet bank you used was using crypto. Follow me?

Apples <-> Oranges.

There are some things that are inherent to the design.

 

For example higher temperatures at low loads, wich increases wear and tear of the components...

Quote

That's a good idea. I actually am pretty sure my own has such a switch, but I am not going to open it up right now and look,

No it does not.

The switch was only present with high wattage XM and XP Series, wich started at 850W (wich was quickly EOL) and then only 1000-1250W had that switch.

 

The next to come with that were the KM3 and XP2...