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porina

Water chiller... what have I ordered...

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Posted · Original PosterOP

IMG_20181010_234339.thumb.jpg.7cee3c23d40f0c4532705ba2a53be8f8.jpg

I thought I'd get a chiller to play with. Good enough for Intel. Good enough for Linus. I had a look on Amazon UK and found this one from a company I've used in the past for fish stuff. There were a few models in the range, and this one was biggest, rated by the manufacturer at 3/5 hp. http://www.boyuaquarium.com/en_ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=279

 

After I received it, I thought I'd go back and see what Linus used. 

 

 

It seems to be this https://hydrofarm.com/p/AACH10HP#specifications rated at 1/10 hp. Think I might have gone a bit overkill?

 

What did Intel use in their notorious demo? Half way down the page at https://www.anandtech.com/show/12907/we-got-a-sneak-peak-on-intels-28core-all-you-need-to-know it can be seen it a 1hp unit.

 

I've dug out some aquarium bits and think I have enough to get started... tomorrow. Bit late now. Should be interesting to see how it does. The unit takes 16mm ID tubing which is common in the fishkeeping hobby. I'm not sure how best to connect that up to the PC loop yet, and will likely run two separate loops with a common reservoir to start testing.


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You could probably cool 2 7980XEs and 8 2080tis to sub zero. That is a monster considering Linus doesn't use there's at max power


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Just keeping this here as a backup 980tiZotacStockBIOS.zip☻♥■∞{╚§XÅD{┘Æ╩mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  wumbo

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Posted · Original PosterOP
3 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

You could probably cool 2 7980XEs and 8 2080tis to sub zero. That is a monster considering Linus doesn't use there's at max power

It's a water chiller. Sub zero is not in their design. It supposedly has a protection cut-out if the sensor thinks it is freezing. Will be interesting to see what it gets me.


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Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB SSD

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35 minutes ago, porina said:

It's a water chiller. Sub zero is not in their design. It supposedly has a protection cut-out if the sensor thinks it is freezing. Will be interesting to see what it gets me.

Yeah nvm I was thinking below room temp not below zero. Still condensation 


PC Specs: i7 6EiGht00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GTX1080 Zotac Amp ExTrEme),64Gb DOminator PlatinUm, EVGA G2 seven5zeroWatt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGTX, Windows 10, K70 RGB, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. SAMSUNG 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a backup 980tiZotacStockBIOS.zip☻♥■∞{╚§XÅD{┘Æ╩mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  wumbo

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5 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Yeah nvm I was thinking below room temp not below zero. Still condensation 

dew point for condensation depends on a lot of variables.  relative humidity, current ambient temperature..  just to name a few, but  yea its quite possible to develop condesation with out frost or subzero water conditions,   its just the larger the difference in temp and higher the humidity the more likely some vapor will chill off into liquid again with enough time/ exposure to the tubes,  ( why you should put foam insulation if you mess around with sub ambient/zero temps. )

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Posted · Original PosterOP
6 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Yeah nvm I was thinking below room temp not below zero. Still condensation 

Sub-ambient. I have a cunning plan to deal with condensation... :) 


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Hmm, i cant see what that chillers minimum temp is. All i see is a note on going from 35c to 18c.

 

You could probably modify it relativly easily though if need be.

 

As for subzero, chillers CAN be modded to go sub zero, but they wont be very good, especialy those using r-134a, like this one. You could probably expect -5c once the thermocouple is bypassed.

 

At 3/5hp though, what ever its minimum temp is , be it 4c or 18c, it shoud handle a PC system, even OCed, without issue.

 

I do sugest you build yourself a large res though, have the chiller set to chill the res, and have a seperate loop going from the res to the PC, so you can keep the res chilled 24/7 (like an aquarium) so that you get chilled liquid all the time.

 

If you go sub ambient, sub dew point, your going to have to seriously think about building a chillbox or dry air environment for long term usage, as even with 'normal' moisture protection, it will likely fail eventualy.

 

IF you intend to stay above dew point but below ambient i sugest you get yourself an ambient temp and dew point reader so you can keep an eye on it during use. Ensure your chiller is always set atleast 2c above your average dew point for safety. Also make sure your case is well ventilated, you dont want it to be warmer inside the case than your ambient, otherwise your dew point readings will be off.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
12 minutes ago, SolarNova said:

You could probably modify it relativly easily though if need be.

 

As for subzero, chillers CAN be modded to go sub zero, but they wont be very good, especialy those using r-134a, like this one. You could probably expect -5c once the thermocouple is bypassed.

I was wondering if adjusting the temperature probe would fool it into going lower, but that's way away. Haven't even fired up the unit yet!

 

12 minutes ago, SolarNova said:

At 3/5hp though, what ever its minimum temp is , be it 4c or 18c, it shoud handle a PC system, even OCed, without issue.

I note 1hp is 745W, and by my own rule of thumb, active cooling rating should be at least equal to what you're cooling to have much long term impact. It means this unit would be ball park 450W effective, so still plenty for non-extreme cooling.

 

Also, as I'm only intending to use this to bench, I doubt I'll run this 24/7. 

 

12 minutes ago, SolarNova said:

I do sugest you build yourself a large res though, have the chiller set to chill the res, and have a seperate loop going from the res to the PC, so you can keep the res chilled 24/7 (like an aquarium) so that you get chilled liquid all the time.

That's my current plan, although in part due to me not having compatible fittings to use on the chiller loop and PC loop. Having a shared res would allow me to join them, and also provide a good lump of thermal mass.

 

12 minutes ago, SolarNova said:

If you go sub ambient, sub dew point, your going to have to seriously think about building a chillbox or dry air environment for long term usage, as even with 'normal' moisture protection, it will likely fail eventualy.

I am planning on going as cold as practical, and I'm not planning on any moisture prevention at all. On this last point, my plan was to run the mobo inverted. If any condensation happens, it would run down away from the mobo. This assumes the CPU produces enough heat, such that the socket/mobo itself around it doesn't drop far below ambient.

 

I have some more extreme ideas for moisture prevention that don't rely hardware modification, but will come to that only if required.


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Aquatuning rates the Hailea 1hp 550W chiller at 1650w of cooling. Which is likely at room temp, the colder you go the less efficient it is.

The 1/2hp 375w chiller is rated at 790w cooling, again likely at room temp.

 

Obviosly theres more to it than just compressor power, but bassed on others experience with the Hailea HC500 and 300 (1/4hp 395w cooling) that i have seen around, a 3/5hp chiller like the one you have should have no issues.

 

 


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Posted · Original PosterOP
12 minutes ago, SolarNova said:

Aquatuning rates the Hailea 1hp 550W chiller at 1650w of cooling. Which is likely at room temp, the colder you go the less efficient it is.

The 1/2hp 375w chiller is rated at 790w cooling, again likely at room temp.

 

Obviosly theres more to it than just compressor power, but bassed on others experience with the Hailea HC500 and 300 (1/4hp 395w cooling) that i have seen around, a 3/5hp chiller like the one you have should have no issues.

I might have over-spec'd it then? :D There isn't much price difference between lower models and the one I got, so I went for it. Note I have done phase change cooling before in the past, but I haven't tried chilled water before so this will be interesting... first victim will be my 7800X and will be interesting to see what that does with more cooling. I don't have HCC OC CPUs though.


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Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB SSD

Total CPU heating: i7-7800X, 2x i7-6700k, i7-6700HQ, i5-6600k, i5-5675C, i5-4570S, i3-8350k, i3-6100, i3-4360, 2x i3-4150T, E5-2683v3, 2x E5-2650, R7 1700, 1600

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Massivley overspecing is what you want :D

 

Me personaly, when i was considering buying a chiller and moding it for subzero, i was looking at the Hailea HC1000, which is the 1hp varient , estimated cooling of 1650w, i have since decided if/when i finaly build my rig i will be scratch building a chiller using Propene (r1270) refrigerant and a plate heat exchanger, as it should be cheaper and perform better.

But that plans on the back boiler now since im spending £14k on a car :P ..and self immesive displays are still not a thing in the "40 size range..so building a beast machine for my current 1080p screen is kinda pointless.

 

Anyway i look forward to seeing how it performs for you. Good luck 👍

 


CPU:Intel i7 3930k w/OC & EK Supremacy EVO Block | Motherboard: Asus P9x79 Pro  | RAM: G.Skill 4x4 1866 CL9 | GPU: EVGA GTX 780 Classified w/OC & EK Water Block | SoundCard: Asus Xonar D2X - FiiO X3K DAP/DAC for Headphones | Storage: Samsung 850 Pro 1TB SSD + Corsair Performance Pro 128gb SSD | Cooling: XSPC D5 Photon 270 Res & Pump | 2x XSPC AX240 White Rads (Push) + NexXxos Monsta 80x240 Rad (Push/Pull) | PSU: Seasonic Platinum 1000w | Case: Modded CM Storm Stryker

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Posted · Original PosterOP
20 minutes ago, SolarNova said:

when i was considering buying a chiller and moding it for subzero

Out of interest, what was your intention?

 

Mine is competitive overclocking. Once this is online I'll go into the sub-ambient category having lingered in the enthusiast category on hwbot for long enough.

 

Personally I don't see these as 24/7 or general use items, and only make any resemblance of sense when going for higher OC.


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Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB SSD

Total CPU heating: i7-7800X, 2x i7-6700k, i7-6700HQ, i5-6600k, i5-5675C, i5-4570S, i3-8350k, i3-6100, i3-4360, 2x i3-4150T, E5-2683v3, 2x E5-2650, R7 1700, 1600

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Long story short ...

 

About 4 years ago i had an idea of building a sub ambient system, that idea then evolved into a sub zero modded chiller system which would be built in a custom sealed case fiiled with nitrogen with liquid temps around -5 to -10c. That idea then evolved into a custom built chiller aiming for -40c with the same sealed case.

The kicker is, it was/is to be a system that 'looks' like a normal high end bootique water cooled system, but would infact be a subzero liquid chilled beast.

 

ALOT of research went into this, planning, 3d modeling the case, contacting manufactuers checking o-ring integrety at subzero temps for blocks and fittings etc.

 

ofc heavy overclocking would ensue, but it would be a system that could be used like any 'normal' watercooled PC, i.e for gaming and long term use.

 


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1 hour ago, porina said:

 

That's my current plan, although in part due to me not having compatible fittings to use on the chiller loop and PC loop. Having a shared res would allow me to join them, and also provide a good lump of thermal mass. 

Ebay has plenty of metric/ imperial brass fittings that could be mated together,

 

i have a custom Peltier block that is 1/16th NPT (just means tapered threaded for squished fitting with teflon tape)     and i got  the brass fitting for that side, and then  1/4 to 1/2 converters so i could use some soft tube if i needed.  but then i found out the 1/4 and 1/2  fittings are screwed together with g 1/4 threads so i can put any fitting i want on the  other side of the tip to convert to the 1/4 id line

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Posted · Original PosterOP
26 minutes ago, Neo-revo said:

Ebay has plenty of metric/ imperial brass fittings that could be mated together,

I'm looking at this in two parts. What do I need to get a system running this weekend, and what do I need to have something nicer for the long term.

 

The short term part I've got just about enough stuff. The chiller side, I have an aquarium pump with 16mm barb and compatible tubing to suit the chiller. The PC side, I'll reuse the existing loop but will just need to manually prime it.

 

The longer term plan I've yet to decide on. I think I'd like to retain a large res (10L+) as I'm not sure the chiller will be too happy if the driven water volume was too small and ended up with faster temperature fluctuations depending on load. I have seen PC watercooling barbs with 1/2" (12 or 13mm, close enough) which I can adapt to 16mm further away.

 

I'm even wondering if I should maintain dual loop, or use heat exchanger, to reduce the number of variables at the same time retaining flexibility as I may cool different test systems from time to time.


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Ryzen rig: Asrock B450 ITX, R5 2600, Noctua D9L, Corsair Vengeance LPX 3000 2x4GB, Vega 56, Corsair CX450M, NZXT Manta, Crucial MX300 525GB, Acer RT280K

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Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB SSD

Total CPU heating: i7-7800X, 2x i7-6700k, i7-6700HQ, i5-6600k, i5-5675C, i5-4570S, i3-8350k, i3-6100, i3-4360, 2x i3-4150T, E5-2683v3, 2x E5-2650, R7 1700, 1600

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after messing around with one of my 12710 TEC1, cold side mounted to my cpu block that was available for the test, due to reasons,  with zero flow mods: which i would do to say the acetyl top of the spare gpu thingy i got from back in the day,   cause in a chill block doesn't need die precision, just exposure,

 

 

i found that i was relativity easy to take the excess thermal input away from water (to ambient) the btu's/hp/joules/watt's  whatever you want convert you energy into for a measurement is the most import part of an active cooling loop, not the volume of water, (although to little may make it hard to keep chilled, but too large a volume means the chiller would need a day or to to get a nice equilibrium on depending on the volume of the water in the tank, insulated, etc, ambient...

 

Since my somewhat ambitious goal is to use this GAST vane rotary pump that can make 22" vacuum, and do a mini-itx chill box in a probably custom acrylic box of some sort.

To get there i am messing with these peltiers cause i like science, and  don't really care about the wasted energy if i can tweak the voltage input to the TEC and fiddle with fluid speed and optimize fans for the hot side exchange i think  if i could mitigate with like a neoprene backing a layer or two and some thought out stuff for a cpu socket area protection from the front i might be able to convert my series pumps into dual  loop and make my monster the franken-cooler

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radiators should not be added, unless the goal is the chill air pushing air though a chilled rad loop. unless you mean something else by heat ex changer.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
8 minutes ago, Neo-revo said:

unless you mean something else by heat ex changer.

I mean heat exchanger when I say heat exchanger. Think of it like a rad, but both sides are water, not water-air.


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yes that's a decent idea, run the hot side on a easily mountable CPU solution,  and submerge it int eh chiller tank if your looking to get good results for a benching

 

dew point and condensation would still be an issue if you took the hot side down to far

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 hour ago, Neo-revo said:

dew point and condensation would still be an issue if you took the hot side down to far

The way I'm looking at it, if I don't get condensation risk, this wasn't worth the effort :D 

 

This is my first step towards more extreme cooling. I definitely want to try way below zero in the future.


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Posted · Original PosterOP

Just powered it on for first time and compressor activated at 8:40pm. Room and water temp is around 22.x C. On initial compressor activation I saw around 500W taken at the wall, but it stabilised around 400W. Test reservoir is around 12L estimated or just over 3 USgal. I've set the target temperature to 4C but will see how far it gets, in how long. This is only a test run and I wont leave it running for more than a couple hours or so.

 

Noise levels, definitely can't call it silent, or even quiet. I'd compare it to a small aircon unit with a mix of mechanical hum and some air noise. It takes air in from the front and blows out the back of the unit, so some consideration is needed on placement.


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The only time its worth using a heat exchanger is if the coolant cannot be used in the item being cooled. For example you cant run refrigerant through a normal PC loop, so instead you use the refrigerant and a heat exchanger to chill the liquid coolant (thats what the chiller iis for)

 

Since you can just use the chilled coolant in a PC loop, there really is no point using another heat exchnager in the system.

 

if you want some flexability to use the chiller/res combo with another system, just use quick disconects on the PC side of the res so you can unplug ur main rig, and plug in another when needed.


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6 minutes ago, porina said:

Just powered it on for first time and compressor activated at 8:40pm. Room and water temp is around 22.x C. On initial compressor activation I saw around 500W taken at the wall, but it stabilised around 400W. Test reservoir is around 12L estimated or just over 3 USgal. I've set the target temperature to 4C but will see how far it gets, in how long. This is only a test run and I wont leave it running for more than a couple hours or so.

 

Noise levels, definitely can't call it silent, or even quiet. I'd compare it to a small aircon unit with a mix of mechanical hum and some air noise. It takes air in from the front and blows out the back of the unit, so some consideration is needed on placement.

Lol ..some timing on those posts :P

 

Anyway sounds good. Glad to hear it has a 4c min temp like most good chillers. One of the reasons to use a large res is to reduce the chillers cycle duration and number of cycles. Make sure you heavily insulate the res to help with this.  In regards to noise, if you can, you can always locate it in a different room to the PC. In an loft/attic for example.


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Posted · Original PosterOP

9:20 manually stopping experiment.

 

Room temp 23.x, water temp 6.0c. Water temp reduction of 16C in 40 minute. It probably isn't a linear effect so don't read too much into that, other than, it really didn't take long. Of course, if I scale it up, that should take proportionately longer. There is some condensation on the outside of the res/tubes, so some kind of insulation will be desired.

 

Power consumption at wall was 500W when I turned it off.

 

35 minutes ago, SolarNova said:

Glad to hear it has a 4c min temp like most good chillers.

I don't know what the minimum actually is. I just put it to 4C as a test. The manual suggests it will go into protection mode if it measures 0.

 


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Total CPU heating: i7-7800X, 2x i7-6700k, i7-6700HQ, i5-6600k, i5-5675C, i5-4570S, i3-8350k, i3-6100, i3-4360, 2x i3-4150T, E5-2683v3, 2x E5-2650, R7 1700, 1600

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Interesting, wonder if the protection can be bypassed in the menu, i mean its there obviosly to protect an aquarium, dont want it freezing lol, but still if the protection could be turned of without needing to modify the chiller that would be great news for future subzero attempts if you wished ot go that far.


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