Should We Use UPS?

[_Hustler_One_]

I'm always worrying about random unstable electricity and power outage. Is there any direct negative effect on PC hardware if those electricity problems occur?

 

I was searching some Line-Interface UPS that has same power as my PC PSU (650W), the choices are UPS that has over 1000VA and they are so heavy that makes the shipping cost is huge.

 

I'm worried but unsure.. Do we really need UPS or is it a mandatory to have one for safety?

[Supportsneedlove]

It's mostly so that you don't lose your work. If you aren't doing anything important like that you don't need it. 

[_Hustler_One_]

6 minutes ago, Supportsneedlove said:

It's mostly so that you don't lose your work. If you aren't doing anything important like that you don't need it. 

How to choose the right UPS properly?

[Supportsneedlove]

2 minutes ago, _Hustler_One_ said:

How to choose the right UPS properly?

No idea mate, I just know what they're used for. 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

On 10/4/2018 at 2:29 AM, Supportsneedlove said:

It's mostly so that you don't lose your work. If you aren't doing anything important like that you don't need it. 

Actually, cold shutdowns can damage the OS and even render it unusable, especially after multiple cold shutdowns.

 

On 10/4/2018 at 2:35 AM, _Hustler_One_ said:

How to choose the right UPS properly?

First, a UPS has two ratings: a larger one rated in VA and a smaller one rated in watts. Considering both are important for determining the minimum size you need.

 

VA means volt/amp and, for the purposes of this discussion, can be treated the same as watts (volts x amps = watts). The VA rating is how much power the UPS will draw from the wall socket it is connected to. It's always higher that the output rating mostly because the UPS needs extra capacity for recharging battteries after an outage or brownout (system inefficiency and parasitic power needs add a small percentage to the input draw; I won't bore you with the explaination since it has no bearing on this discussion).

 

The wattage rating is how much power is capable of delicering to whatever you plug into it.

 

Ideally, you want the largest UPS that your wall circuit can handle. When determining the VA rating, you need to also allow for the ammount of power being drawn by other devices on the circuit. The reason why you want the largest UPS you can accomodate is the larger the battery capacity, the less you will draw down the batteries before you can shut down the computer, etc. The less you draw down the batteries before recharging, the longer they will last. Also, the less you draw down the batteries, the more likely the UPS will still be able to prevent a cold shutdown before the batteries have a chance to recharge after the previous outage. Add to that, frequently running a UPS near or at its capacity will also shorten its life.

 

Another factor is the larger the UPS, the more time you will have to safely shut down the computer. However, this does not mean you can get long term operation from a UPS during an outage. For that you, you need a standby generator. Those are expensive, large, noisy, need to be located outside, and require periodic maintenance.

 

For use with computers, especially those with PFC PSUs, you should use a UPS  with a pure sine wave output. A computer may just refuse to run on a PSU with a modified or stepped sine wave.

 

To accurately size a UPS, you need to know the actual power draw of your computer. Just because you have a 650W PSU doen't mean that is what the computer will actually draw. You need to either get some kind of power meter to measure peak power your computer actually draws or just deliberately "oversize" to make sure it's big enough.

 

There is no point in wasting money on a UPS that is too small for your load or will not last long due to overuse.

[_Hustler_One_]

40 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

peak power your computer actually draws or just deliberately "oversize" to make sure it's big enough.

Thanks for the explanation..

So choosing the UPS that has Watts matches with the PSU has is not the wrong thing to do either, right? It means also oversized the power draw of my PC as you said above, or am I wrong?

[Lady Fitzgerald]

9 minutes ago, _Hustler_One_ said:

Thanks for the explanation..

So choosing the UPS that has Watts matches with the PSU has is not the wrong thing to do either, right?...

It's not exactly wrong but it doesn't give you a true picture of your actual needs. Some people use grossly oversized PSUs (I know of one guy who could have used a 650W PSU but was forced to buy a 1000W PSU to get the number of peripheral outlets he needed without making up new cables) and others cut it too close.

 

9 minutes ago, _Hustler_One_ said:

...It means also oversized the power draw of my PC as you said above, or am I wrong?

Again, it depends on how much much power the PC actually consumes compared to the size of the PSU.

 

My recently departed X79 desktop rig (may it rest in peace <sniff>) had a 750W PSU but peak draw was under 400W (and that figure included the draw of three 24" monitors and two powered HDMI splitters).

[_Hustler_One_]

24 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

It's not exactly wrong but it doesn't give you a true picture of your actual needs. Some people use grossly oversized PSUs (I know of one guy who could have used a 650W PSU but was forced to buy a 1000W PSU to get the number of peripheral outlets he needed without making up new cables) and others cut it too close.

 

Again, it depends on how much much power the PC actually consumes compared to the size of the PSU.

 

My recently departed X79 desktop rig (may it rest in peace <sniff>) had a 750W PSU but peak draw was under 400W (and that figure included the draw of three 24" monitors and two powered HDMI splitters).

My PC also only draw around 400W roughly.. I'm looking for any chance to get APC BX1100LI which has Watts nearly same with my PSU Watts. How is this UPS from your prespective?

[Guest]

9 hours ago, _Hustler_One_ said:

I'm always worrying about random unstable electricity and power outage. Is there any direct negative effect on PC hardware if those electricity problems occur?

 

I was searching some Line-Interface UPS that has same power as my PC PSU (650W), the choices are UPS that has over 1000VA and they are so heavy that makes the shipping cost is huge.

 

I'm worried but unsure.. Do we really need UPS or is it a mandatory to have one for safety?

Depends on the PSU.

 

And a UPS is more for complete power failures.  If you're suffering from brown outs, voltage sags, etc., but the power is still "on", a decent PSU won't even flinch and is still, in most cases, way cheaper than a UPS.

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

4 hours ago, _Hustler_One_ said:

My PC also only draw around 400W roughly.. I'm looking for any chance to get APC BX1100LI which has Watts nearly same with my PSU Watts. How is this UPS from your prespective?

It's output is a "stepped approximation to a sinewave", one of the things I warned you against. While it's possible it might run your PSU, why gamble on it (espeically when they cost so much to buy and ship)? Depending on what your wall socket circuit can handle, it would be better to go higher to get more life from the batteries and to have protection from a second outage before the batteries have been fully recharged from the first one.

 

I'm only familiar with Cyberpower UPSes and never bothered to try APC since I was plenty happy with Cyberpower. Cyberpower also tends to cost a bit less than APC. However, APC has a good reputation.

[_Hustler_One_]

19 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

It's output is a "stepped approximation to a sinewave", one of the things I warned you against. While it's possible it might run your PSU, why gamble on it (espeically when they cost so much to buy and ship)? Depending on what your wall socket circuit can handle, it would be better to go higher to get more life from the batteries and to have protection from a second outage before the batteries have been fully recharged from the first one.

 

I'm only familiar with Cyberpower UPSes and never bothered to try APC since I was plenty happy with Cyberpower. Cyberpower also tends to cost a bit less than APC. However, APC has a good reputation.

By checking my system spec on my signature, please also note the monitor I use. Which UPS would be the most ideal for my system with $90 budget?

[Lady Fitzgerald]

4 minutes ago, _Hustler_One_ said:

By checking my system spec on my signature, please also note the monitor I use. Which UPS would be the most ideal for my system with $90 budget?

You will not be able to buy one even close to what you need for only $90. I suggest waiting until you have enough money to buy one that is capable of meeting your needs.

[_Hustler_One_]

1 minute ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

You will not be able to buy one even close to what you need for only $90. I suggest waiting until you have enough money to buy one that is capable of meeting your needs.

OK, by that being said, how much the budget that I need to get an ideal UPS for my system plus monitor? Also by the recommended budget which UPS to get?

[Acecool]

A brownout is what causes electrical equipment to fail in most cases. A surge isn't a huge deal. A UPS removes those possibilities altogether - the power is either on or off and at a proper level. Never operate good equipment without one.

 

I run 3 or more ups's at any given time. The primary one can run my computer for around an hour and the others power the extra monitors. I usually have my primary monitor either on its own ups or on the system ups.

 

Things such as speakers, I don't use the ups for except on surge protection - they're off in most cases anyways. I typically run anywhere from 3 to 6 monitors at any given time. I also have a rework station, a dentists light for electrical work, and a few other things. The dentists light doesn't require the ups although I may convert it over to use LEDs instead of the halogen, or whatever it is, 3 phase bulb...

[W-L]

14 hours ago, _Hustler_One_ said:

OK, by that being said, how much the budget that I need to get an ideal UPS for my system plus monitor? Also by the recommended budget which UPS to get?

Depends on the hardware you are running as that will determine the needs (load) not the PSU wattage, if the specs are what you have in your sig for the main system then something like this would be my recommendation. Your system shouldn't draw more than 350W at max load, this would give you more than enough overhead for monitors, peripherals and networking equipment. 

 

https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/product/ups/cp1000pfclcd/

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/Back-UPS-PRO-BR-1000VA-SineWave-10-Outlets-2-USB-Charging-Ports-AVR-LCD-interface/P-BR1000MS

[vanished]

Whether or not you need one is something you'll have to decide based on what you know your power is like.  It will protect you from power issues, but so should a good power bar (if it's actually got stuff in it and not just a bunch of ports on a wire).  I've always feared brownouts, even moreso than a total power cut, since that's at least clean, but JonnyGURU says a good PSU will handle it fine so unless your power is absolute garbage, you probably don't need one.  That said, I have one, and it's been handy on numerous occasions even though I'd call our power pretty good.

 

For sizing, I'll keep it simple.  You want more wattage than your PSU since it needs to potentially take the full load of your PC, plus your monitor and anything else you want to plug in.  Additionally, the drain rate tends to be dramatically non-linear (for example, it might last 20 minutes at 50% load but 5 minutes at 100% load), so the more excess you can go, the longer it's likely to last when on battery.  You should be able to look up expected runtimes for any given load on the product page of any good model.

[Guest]

On 10/4/2018 at 7:13 AM, _Hustler_One_ said:

Thanks for the explanation..

So choosing the UPS that has Watts matches with the PSU has is not the wrong thing to do either, right? It means also oversized the power draw of my PC as you said above, or am I wrong?

If your load is only 400W, you don't need a 600W UPS.  Getting a bigger UPS, however, will extend your battery time.  Thing is, a good UPS that's that big is going to cost you a lot more (over $100).

 

For just under $100, you can get the CyberPower AVRG900U.  It's a 480W UPS.

 

Your PSU has line filtering, MOV, and a 16ms hold up time at 100% load.  So if you're just experiencing brown outs and surges, your PSU should be fine.

 

 

 

 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

1 minute ago, jonnyGURU said:

If your load is only 400W, you don't need a 600W UPS.  Getting a bigger UPS, however, will extend your battery time.  Thing is, a good UPS that's that big is going to cost you a lot more (over $100).

 

For just under $100, you can get the CyberPower AVRG900U.  It's a 480W UPS.

 

 

 

 

I used to have a high opinion of you. Not anymore. The UPS you recommended has a simulated sine wave output which may or may not work with the OP's PSU.

 

 

[vanished]

36 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

If your load is only 400W, you don't need a 600W UPS.  Getting a bigger UPS, however, will extend your battery time.  Thing is, a good UPS that's that big is going to cost you a lot more (over $100).

 

For just under $100, you can get the CyberPower AVRG900U.  It's a 480W UPS.

 

Your PSU has line filtering, MOV, and a 16ms hold up time at 100% load.  So if you're just experiencing brown outs and surges, your PSU should be fine.

You reminded me of something important that is often a sticking point in these threads - what is your take on pure sinewave output?  Based on what I've heard (that some PSUs will reject anything else), it seems to me it's a must for a UPS used on a PC, but is this true?

 

Also, as a sidenote I wouldn't think 16 ms was enough to be worth anything... I've seen dips on the scale of ~half a second before (and shockingly our den PC running an Integra R2 actually handled it fine) and I would think any event big enough to call an event would be multi-second if not multi-minute.  I figured the hold up time in PSUs was just enough to carry them over spikes and ripples, nothing "serious"?

 

32 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

I used to have a high opinion of you. Not anymore. The UPS you recommended has a simulated sine wave output which may or may not work with the OP's PSU.

That seems like kind of an extreme reaction... he's known as an expert in this field for a reason.  I wouldn't let one comment completely change your opinion especially without even attempting to clarify his position first.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

I used to have a high opinion of you. Not anymore. The UPS you recommended has a simulated sine wave output which may or may not work with the OP's PSU.

 

 

For the record:  I don't care what your opinion of me is.  Your own arrogance makes mine look mild

 

The OP says he has a TX650M Gold.  There's no issue with using a step sine wave UPS with that PSU.

 

Do you even understand WHY some PSUs have an issue with step sine wave output while others don't?  Probably not.

 

Get off your damn high horse.

 

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

You reminded me of something important that is often a sticking point in these threads - what is your take on pure sinewave output?  Based on what I've heard (that some PSUs will reject anything else), it seems to me it's a must for a UPS used on a PC, but is this true?

Some PSUs have a wide enough input range that it can handle the higher voltage of the squared off wave.  Your PSU included.  I wouldn't recommend a step sine wave to everyone, but you'll be fine.

 

57 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Also, as a sidenote I wouldn't think 16 ms was enough to be worth anything... I've seen dips on the scale of ~half a second before (and shockingly our den PC running an Integra R2 actually handled it fine) and I would think any event big enough to call an event would be multi-second if not multi-minute.  I figured the hold up time in PSUs was just enough to carry them over spikes and ripples, nothing "serious"?

Defined hold up time is not a linear value.  Stated hold up time is based off 80%~100% of PSU's capability.  The lower the load, the higher the hold up time.

 

[_Hustler_One_]

9 hours ago, jonnyGURU said:

If your load is only 400W, you don't need a 600W UPS.  Getting a bigger UPS, however, will extend your battery time.  Thing is, a good UPS that's that big is going to cost you a lot more (over $100).

 

For just under $100, you can get the CyberPower AVRG900U.  It's a 480W UPS.

 

Your PSU has line filtering, MOV, and a 16ms hold up time at 100% load.  So if you're just experiencing brown outs and surges, your PSU should be fine.

 

 

 

 

Okay.. But is that UPS can handle not only the PC but also the monitor? See my monitor spec on my sig below

[W-L]

3 minutes ago, _Hustler_One_ said:

Okay.. But is that UPS can handle not only the PC but also the monitor? See my monitor spec on my sig below

Monitors use little power only around 10-30W max for most. 

[Donut417]

On 10/4/2018 at 3:22 AM, _Hustler_One_ said:

I'm always worrying about random unstable electricity and power outage. Is there any direct negative effect on PC hardware if those electricity problems occur?

 

I was searching some Line-Interface UPS that has same power as my PC PSU (650W), the choices are UPS that has over 1000VA and they are so heavy that makes the shipping cost is huge.

 

I'm worried but unsure.. Do we really need UPS or is it a mandatory to have one for safety?

I once saw my window air conditioner kick on and it sent a surge that killed the OS drive in my machine. This is why I invested in a UPS. They are handy if you live in an area with shitty power. 

[_Hustler_One_]

@Supportsneedlove @Lady Fitzgerald @jonnyGURU @Acecool @W-L @Ryan_Vickers @Donut417

 

I think I really need a good high reliability UPS then..

So my earlier proposal for $80 APC BX1100LI-MS (1100VA/550W) worth to get?

Or the $110 CyberPower AVRG900U (900VA/480W) is the better investment?

 

Is anyone have other better recommendations to throw here?