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SnowWolf370

Windows 10 automatic updates during hospital operation

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Hello,

 

Tech news from Sarpsborg, Norway. Where a computer with Windows 10 started to perform automatic updates for over an hour during an operation at the counties biggest and main hospital (Sykehuset Østfold Kalnes).

 

Sources:

https://www.moss-avis.no/

https://www.sa.no/

https://www.f-b.no/

https://www.nrk.no/ostfold/sykehuset-matte-avbryte-narkose-fordi-pc-ble-oppdatert-1.14206040

 

Translated using Google with minor corrections

Quote

The PC automatically began to update the software and the patient was unnecessary in anesthesia for one hour. Several times throughout the year, the Hospital Østfold publishes so-called 3-3 reports, non-disclosure reports, in anonymized form. A number of new non-conformities are now published in September.

 

Among other things, it emerged that an investigation into patients with anesthesia had to be interrupted when the PC suddenly began to automatically update the software. Unnecessary in anesthesia "There was no backup PC with the same program available.

 

The patient could therefore not be tested and lay unnecessarily in an anesthetic for an hour," the hospital writes. The PSU considers that the department must clarify with ICT how similar events can be prevented in the future. Measures suggested are that PCs used for investigation should not be connected to the network and that they must have procedures to ensure that such PCs are always updated to avoid this.

 

Among the 3-3 reports there is also another deviation associated with weakness in the hospital's IT system. The dissemination of a test response was delayed three hours. The weakness of the system was known from earlier, and measures were taken in the form of a routine that weakness should not lead to a failure in patient treatment.

 

However, the routine was not followed properly and the tests were delayed. The delay should not have affected the outcome, but at worst it could have serious consequences. What is a 3-3 message: All Norwegian hospitals have a statutory duty to report serious incidents. This applies to both events that have led to, or could have resulted in, significant personal injury.

 

These messages are called 3-3 messages pursuant to section 3-3 which describe the notification obligation in the Special Health Services Act.

Quote

"It was completely unexpected and was completely surprising for the personnel to investigate the patient," says Jostein Vist, head of the patient safety committee for somatic medicine at Østfold Hospital. It was before summer that the technology failed at the worst possible time when a patient in anesthesia was to be examined at one of the hospital's departments.

 

The PC used was automatically updating the software in the middle of the survey, which therefore had to be canceled because the hospital did not have a backup PC available. "Of course, it will not happen and the event has been carefully followed by the hospital," said Vist. The Østfold hospital was drawn last year as one of Europe's very best in the use of new technology in treatment.

 

At times high risk of serious failure in the heart department Updates must now be started manually The patient should undergo a scheduled examination, and therefore it was not a question of emergency assistance being interrupted. However, the unexpected interruption caused the patient to remain unnecessary in anesthesia for an hour.

 

The patient later had to re-examine with new anesthesia. Jostein Shown at the hospital Østfold Jostein Vist at the hospital Østfold says that the PC update came surprisingly at the staff at the hospital. The incident was not dangerous to the patient. But it is a burden to be put into anesthesia and, of course, you do not want patients to be put into anesthetic more times than is strictly necessary, "said Vist.

 

The hospital has subsequently modified routines so that such events can not happen again. - The routines have been reviewed and changed, and in principle it should not happen again. This type of PC should no longer be able to go to update without getting started manually, says Vist.

 

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Posted · Original PosterOP
2 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

Why is the IT department not managing the updates?

In the article above and from the way I interpret it, is that the IT department should keep computers up to date and that they should not be connected to the network/internet during operations etc. But this was not done... Even though it's a regulation.

 

From the article and written above

Quote

"Measures suggested are that PCs used for investigation should not be connected to the network and that they must have procedures to ensure that such PCs are always updated to avoid this."

 

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Regardless of proper IT procedures, the Windows 10 update regime is a disaster and something like this should never be possible to happen in the first place because Windows 10 should never be restarting without permission from the system and Windows owner.

 

Microsoft unilaterally accessing and modifying the data on people's hard drives and in their personally-owned Windows OSes is vandalism of private property.

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1 minute ago, The Benjamins said:

Why is the IT department not managing the updates?

They are most likely not even hooked up to any kind of domain. Running as stand alone PCs. 

Either IT departament is lazy or there's no such thing there. A lot of copmanies have negative attitude towards IT, thinks it's only a waste of money. 


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1 minute ago, SnowWolf370 said:

In the article above and from the way I interpret it, is that the IT department should keep computers up to date and that they should not be connected to the network/internet during operations etc. But this was not done... Even though it's a regulation.

ya this is 100% the hospitals fault. (or the IT dept if a contractor)


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Posted · Original PosterOP
Just now, Delicieuxz said:

Regardless of proper IT procedures, the Windows 10 update regime is a disaster and something like this should never be possible of happening in the first place because Windows 10 should never be restarting without permission from the system and Windows owner.

This has also happend a lot of times, I'm a truck driver and there's been a bunch of times that computers in warehouses. Even computers that control automatic shelfing systems and robots that stack boxes etc, just stop.. Because Windows 10 starts to download updates and restart.

 

Most warehouses wants to go back to using Windows 7, but they aren't allowed by the IT companies because of "safety", but automatic updates have always been a huge pain in the neck. This is the first time it's been in the news and with a hospital, but like I mentioned I've experienced it tons of times in other industries first hand.

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1 minute ago, Delicieuxz said:

Regardless of proper IT procedures, the Windows 10 update regime is a disaster and something like this should never be possible of happening in the first place because Windows 10 should never be restarting without permission from the system and Windows owner.

No if the user should keep the machines updated, it only force restart if the machine has not been restarted for a VERY long time (days, weeks). if you restart windows daily this would not happen.


if you want to annoy me, then join my teamspeak server ts.benja.cc

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Posted · Original PosterOP
2 minutes ago, JuztBe said:

They are most likely not even hooked up to any kind of domain. Running as stand alone PCs. 

Either IT departament is lazy or there's no such thing there. A lot of copmanies have negative attitude towards IT, thinks it's only a waste of money. 

Very correct, for example the biggest companies in Norway that sell fruit and vegetables still uses very old software that was designed for when Windows 98 was the common operating system on their computers...

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Just now, SnowWolf370 said:

This has also happend a lot of times, I'm a truck driver and there's been a bunch of times that computers in warehouses. Even computers that control automatic shelfing systems and robots that stack boxes etc, just stop.. Because Windows 10 starts to download updates and restart.

 

Most warehouses wants to go back to using Windows 7, but they aren't allowed by the IT companies because of "safety", but automatic updates have always been a huge pain in the neck. This is the first time it's been in the news and with a hospital, but like I mentioned I've experienced it tons of times in other industries first hand.

Why not switch to Linux? Mint 19 is very friendly for windows users

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6 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

Why is the IT department not managing the updates?

 

5 minutes ago, Velcade said:

Agreed.  We have our system setup to only update during restarts and is completely managed through the IT department.

idk man, unless you're on LTSB ever since the april update my computer will now plug in its own ethernet cable to run updates. 

 


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There's 3 kinds of hospitals IT

 

A) We keep an IT staff on site 

B) Does it meet HIPAA compliance? Good, no other IT matters

C) What's IT?


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Was it W10 Pro? 


Please tag me if you need assistance or if you want me to contribute to a topic 

 

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, Deus Voltage said:

Why not switch to Linux? Mint 19 is very friendly for windows users

Because most programs for industries only works on Windows computers, and sometimes software is the last part to get updates when it comes to stuff. For example one warehouse I've been too has automatic loading docks that are rather new, but the software for them only works on Windows XP...

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Posted · Original PosterOP
Just now, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

Was it W10 Pro? 

Doesn't say in the article, but Windows 10 Home and Pro has the same issues with Updates. Only the Enterprise edition can forcefully delay/stop updates.

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7 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

Why is the IT department not managing the updates?

6 minutes ago, Velcade said:

Agreed.  We have our system setup to only update during restarts and is completely managed through the IT department.

For crying out loud, my personal system with 10 Pro is set to only check for updates but never download or install them until I choose.  There is no conceivable way this hospital is running Home edition, so there is literally zero excuse for them not configuring it properly.

 

3 minutes ago, SnowWolf370 said:

This has also happend a lot of times, I'm a truck driver and there's been a bunch of times that computers in warehouses. Even computers that control automatic shelfing systems and robots that stack boxes etc, just stop.. Because Windows 10 starts to download updates and restart.

Same here, there is zero excuse for companies who don't setup their systems properly.  If they can't do it, have an IT expert come in who can.  It's still cheaper than the downtime for having improperly configured computers.

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4 minutes ago, The Benjamins said:

No if the user should keep the machines updated, it only force restart if the machine has not been restarted for a VERY long time (days, weeks). if you restart windows daily this would not happen.

That's not a "No" to what I said. A person exclusively owns their system hardware, the data on their hard drives, and their Windows OSes. There is no room for your or anybody else's opinion on what people should do with their personal and private property. Any risks are theirs alone to choose to take, and theirs to live with the consequences of. Property rights declare that Microsoft is violating the law when they overrule people's will concerning their own Windows OS and system hardware and data.

 

Under no circumstances whatsoever should Microsoft ever unilaterally reset people's machines against the will of those systems' owners. If those people choose to allow Microsoft to do so, then that's OK. But Windows 10 should have easy avenues for people to ensure that automatic resets and also automatic updates never happen.

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1 minute ago, SnowWolf370 said:

Doesn't say in the article, but Windows 10 Home and Pro has the same issues with Updates. Only the Enterprise edition can forcefully delay/stop updates.

Incorrect, I set mine ages ago to only check for updates, not to download or install them.

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3 minutes ago, SnowWolf370 said:

Doesn't say in the article, but Windows 10 Home and Pro has the same issues with Updates. Only the Enterprise edition can forcefully delay/stop updates.

I've always thought the Pro version had the option to defer updates 


Please tag me if you need assistance or if you want me to contribute to a topic 

 

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6 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Why is it auto restarting without permission? 9_9 (Not to mention downloading and installing updates....)

 

6 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

Regardless of proper IT procedures, the Windows 10 update regime is a disaster and something like this should never be possible of happening in the first place because Windows 10 should never be restarting without permission from the system and Windows owner.

 

Microsoft unilaterally accessing and modifying the data on people's hard drives and in their personally-owned Windows OSes is vandalism of private property.

They either didn't spend the extra money for Windows 10 Pro where you can disable updates, or they are incompetent and never properly set up that computer to be on an update schedule or connected to a WSUS server where the IT department can manage it. Very simple stuff that shouldn't have been overlooked. But there are a lot of incompetent IT departments out there. So it's not without their permission, they never set it up to follow their policies in the first place.


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44 minutes ago, SnowWolf370 said:

 Can you link to the articles? I can't find them on those news websites.

 

Found a free version/source: https://www.nrk.no/ostfold/sykehuset-matte-avbryte-narkose-fordi-pc-ble-oppdatert-1.14206040


NotCPUCores Dev | Desktop Build: Ryzen 7 1800X @ 4.0GHz, AsRock Fatal1ty X370 Professional Gaming, 32GB Corsair DDR4 @ 2933MHz, RX480 8GB OC, Benq XL2730 1440p 144Hz FS


 

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2 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

That's not a "No" to what I said. A person exclusively owns their system hardware, the data on their hard drives, and their Windows OSes. There is no room for your or anybody else's opinion on what people should do with their personal and private property. Any risks are theirs alone to choose to take, and theirs to live with the consequences of.

 

Under no circumstances whatsoever should Microsoft ever unilaterally reset people's machines against the will of those systems' owners. If those people choose to allow Microsoft to do so, then that's OK. But Windows 10 should have easy avenues for people to ensure that automatic resets and also automatic updates never happen.

Fair enough but this is a hospital, they have sensitive data and need to have updated systems. 


if you want to annoy me, then join my teamspeak server ts.benja.cc

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