PSA: A reminder on why you should maintain copies of movies

[LAwLz]

48 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I linked to the ACCC earlier, region locking is not considered DRM in Australia, you are free to unlock your dvd player, buy an unlocked one or even  run a business unlocking them.

Nowhere in that link does it say region locking isn't considered DRM. That is your interpretation of it, and I am not sure how you come to that conclusion.

 

48 minutes ago, mr moose said:

While the Copyright Act 1968 prevents Australian retailers and wholesalers from importing DVD movies for resale or other commercial purposes, consumers are lawfully entitled to buy DVD movies from overseas for personal use.

That does not say region locks aren't DRM. It just says that you are allowed to import region locked movies for personal use. It does not however specify if you are allowed to circumvent the region locks on them.

 

 

53 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Fact of the matter is region locks are viewed by the consumer affairs department and the atorney general as little more than a hindrance to consumers. So,  in the words of the ACCC " These restrictions are artificially imposed by a group of multinational film entertainment companies " that we me step around anyway we see fit.

I'd say that all DRM is little more than a hindrance to consumers, and they are artificially imposed by a group of multinational companies.

 

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

The WIPO document linked is interesting in that it claims the Libraian found it to be DRM yet the documents I linked (which are the congress librarian conclusions on DMCA only mentions region once and that is with regard to a request for exemption on consoles.   CSS and region locks are different, you don't need to decrypt anything to make a player region free, there is no actual circumvention, you simply tell the firmware to accept all codes.  The CSS that document is talking about is the actual encryption on the disc.   It is like clicking the button on a porn site saying you are 18 years old.  You are not hacking or circumventing the code on the website to get access, you are just telling the website what it wants to hear to give you access.

It seems like you are actually correct when you say it is legal in Australia. The Australian law seems to have made a very specific exclusion of region locks in the "you aren't allowed to circumvent DRM" clause. My guess is that this was done because you got shafted hard on the DVD regions. If you were in region 1 or 2 chances are the exception would not have been made.

 

Anyway,  you seem to be right that it would be legal to circumvent region locks in Australia (specifically Australia, this does not apply to for example the US where it is illegal).

It still seems like kind of a gray zone to me though, and I wouldn't be 100% sure that I'd win a court battle against let's say Disney if they got pissed that I circumvented their region locks.

 

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

The Australian courts will rule any modification of code as DRM circumvention, but they will not rule bypassing Region locks as circumvention.  Again because the Australian legal system see them as two separate issues and consumer law trumps corporate law.

That's not what they are saying at all.

By that same logic, injecting a SLIC certificate into your BIOS to fool Windows to activate is legal too, because it doesn't modify the Windows code. It just "tells the OS what it wants to hear to give you access".

[Tellos]

@mr moose keep in mind whatever aussie land does in its home is one thing rest of the world does not follow Aussie laws.

[Linus_torvalds]

14 hours ago, J.b091 said:

Please don't shame Georgia (caucasus). I'm from there too and I do not promote piracy like you do. Also no it's not justified for you. It doesn't matter how much you make per year, it's not excuse. It's like saying I'm stealing because I don't have money. Stealing is still crime and it shouldn't be glorified but shamed.

It's not stealing! It has separate section in law different from theft!!! How to not shame it? In Georgia 98% of windows users ARE PIRATES!!! None of them buy windows, movies, music, games,software. Everything they use is pirated. Even government does this. I have worked one of the ministry of Georgia between 2011-2012 and they had pirated windows 7. I tried to convert them to linux but no luck. They could not use it because of libreoffice.

[mr moose]

7 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Nowhere in that link does it say region locking isn't considered DRM. That is your interpretation of it, and I am not sure how you come to that conclusion.

 

That does not say region locks aren't DRM. It just says that you are allowed to import region locked movies for personal use. It does not however specify if you are allowed to circumvent the region locks on them.

 

 

I'd say that all DRM is little more than a hindrance to consumers, and they are artificially imposed by a group of multinational companies.

 

 

It seems like you are actually correct when you say it is legal in Australia. The Australian law seems to have made a very specific exclusion of region locks in the "you aren't allowed to circumvent DRM" clause. My guess is that this was done because you got shafted hard on the DVD regions. If you were in region 1 or 2 chances are the exception would not have been made.

 

That's because Australian law doesn't recgonise region locks as DRM.

Quote

Anyway,  you seem to be right that it would be legal to circumvent region locks in Australia (specifically Australia, this does not apply to for example the US where it is illegal).

It still seems like kind of a gray zone to me though, and I wouldn't be 100% sure that I'd win a court battle against let's say Disney if they got pissed that I circumvented their region locks.

 

The courts actually did have a case regarding this when the sony PS 1 was hard moded to circumvent the need for original discs, the courts originally rulled in favor of the defendant because they interpreted what he had done as circumventing region locks,  on appeal they they decided that hard modding the PS1 constituted changing the code to circumvent copy protection DRM.  That is where the difference lies.

 

Quote

 

That's not what they are saying at all.

By that same logic, injecting a SLIC certificate into your BIOS to fool Windows to activate is legal too, because it doesn't modify the Windows code. It just "tells the OS what it wants to hear to give you access".

As I said above, telling the dvd player to play all regions (using the firmware that came with the dvd player is not the same as bypassing encryption or copy protection using some other device or software, as I have highlighted several times, Australian law does separate the two.

5 hours ago, Tellos said:

@mr moose keep in mind whatever aussie land does in its home is one thing rest of the world does not follow Aussie laws.

I know this, as I said in one of my very firsts posts, it is law even though it can't be enforced internationally.   

 

EDIT: also if you search any of the US homethreatre forums you'll see it is hotly debated if region locks are DRM.

[LAwLz]

15 minutes ago, mr moose said:

As I said above, telling the dvd player to play all regions (using the firmware that came with the dvd player is not the same as bypassing encryption or copy protection using some other device or software, as I have highlighted several times, Australian law does separate the two.

Injecting the SLIC certificate is in my eyes exactly the same as "just modding the DVD player". You're modifying the firmware of something (motherboard vs DVD player) so that when the software restriction (region lock or serial key) check is done, it gets a pass because it thinks it's on something it isn't.

 

 

19 minutes ago, mr moose said:

EDIT: also if you search any of the US homethreatre forums you'll see it is hotly debated if region locks are DRM.

Are you sure it's debated if region locks are a "DRM" or if it's just OK to circumvent it?

I don't think there is any debate whether or not the use of region locking is a form of digital rights managements. 

Anything which deliberately limits the way content can be used or viewed is DRM. It can be serial keys, online checks, geochecks or anything else of similar nature.

Like I showed earlier, WIPO even has region restrictions on DVDs as an example for what they define as DRM. That Australia has a specific exception in the law does not change that fact. 

 

You won't find any definition of DRM which region locks doesn't fit.

[Tellos]

@mr moose forums are not the Law the Law says it is illegal.So I'd avoid using random Forums .

[J.b091]

2 hours ago, mate_mate91 said:

It's not stealing! It has separate section in law different from theft!!! How to not shame it? In Georgia 98% of windows users ARE PIRATES!!! None of them buy windows, movies, music, games,software. Everything they use is pirated. Even government does this. I have worked one of the ministry of Georgia between 2011-2012 and they had pirated windows 7. I tried to convert them to linux but no luck. They could not use it because of libreoffice.

And it's not something to be proud. And yes, you should be ashamed if our country is pirating things like left and right. There are some normal people like me who doesn't pirate/steal & buy games and other things officially how it's supposed to be for normal people and society. For only 35 lari you can subscribe for Netflix ultraHD package. It's not that big money to cry for and pirate things. FHD package even costs less, which I'm using right now. And games are also quite cheaper on Steam for us comparing to other countries and me and my other friends, we all buy games and don't pirate and yes, they are Georgian too. Saying I'm doing crime because everyone does here doesn't justify you. If everyone would do same like you do, there wouldn't be games, movies and anything anymore. Thank God, there are normal thinking people in this world who realize what's wrong and right.

[Linus_torvalds]

1 hour ago, J.b091 said:

And it's not something to be proud. And yes, you should be ashamed if our country is pirating things like left and right. There are some normal people like me who doesn't pirate/steal & buy games and other things officially how it's supposed to be for normal people and society. For only 35 lari you can subscribe for Netflix ultraHD package. It's not that big money to cry for and pirate things. FHD package even costs less, which I'm using right now. And games are also quite cheaper on Steam for us comparing to other countries and me and my other friends, we all buy games and don't pirate and yes, they are Georgian too. Saying I'm doing crime because everyone does here doesn't justify you. If everyone would do same like you do, there wouldn't be games, movies and anything anymore. Thank God, there are normal thinking people in this world who realize what's wrong and right.

I do buy games on steam for cheap on summer sales and i use ONLY free and open source software on my computers. I am a linux user! I care about my privacy. I do not pirate anything i JUST watch movies on online sites! That's it. If it's ilegal then they MUST takedown that websites! Until then i do not give a fuck about others opinions! I like to watch movies and i will continue to do so until those websites exist like imovies or adjaranet or similar websites on different countries!

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Injecting the SLIC certificate is in my eyes exactly the same as "just modding the DVD player". You're modifying the firmware of something (motherboard vs DVD player) so that when the software restriction (region lock or serial key) check is done, it gets a pass because it thinks it's on something it isn't.

There is no modification of firmware when you unlock a dvd player.  You are literally punching a code into the remote and pressing a button to turn off the region lock.  It is more like changing the background in windows than modifying anything. 

 

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

 

Are you sure it's debated if region locks are a "DRM" or if it's just OK to circumvent it?

The threads I have read are actually debating the difference between turning off region locks or buying an already unlocked player (which you can do in the us) and bypassing the content scrambler.

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I don't think there is any debate whether or not the use of region locking is a form of digital rights managements. 

Anything which deliberately limits the way content can be used or viewed is DRM. It can be serial keys, online checks, geochecks or anything else of similar nature.

Like I showed earlier, WIPO even has region restrictions on DVDs as an example for what they define as DRM. That Australia has a specific exception in the law does not change that fact. 

 

You won't find any definition of DRM which region locks doesn't fit.

That's nice, Maybe explain why so many websites sell region free DVD players in the US. Plus the numerous websites that show you how to unlock them?

https://forum.dvdtalk.com/international-dvd-talk/255168-region-free-players-illegal.html

this thread has some answers.

1 hour ago, Tellos said:

@mr moose forums are not the Law the Law says it is illegal.So I'd avoid using random Forums .

Can you show me were the law says it's illegal? you keep telling me all about these laws but you jhaven't actually linked to a single one yet.

I have scoured the DMCA laws and not one says it is illegal to buy or own a region free player in the US and I haven't found a law that says you can't buy DVDs from other regions for personal use either.

[ThreePinkApples]

I've been ripping my Blu-rays for years, mostly because of the convenience of playing them and having the backup, but reading about things like this reminds me to not go digital with my purchases yet, even though it's quite expensive in both per-movie cost and the storage space needed for the movies. 

I just recently got the setup to ripping 4k Blu-rays, and I've ripped all 93 of them now (I don't want to think about how much those have cost me in total), they're taking up 4TB. And my 163 "normal" Blu-rays are taking 3TB, but not all of them are pure rips, a lot of them are compressed down to 10-15GB files. I need more hard drives..

[Jito463]

On 9/19/2018 at 1:20 AM, LAwLz said:

Injecting the SLIC certificate is in my eyes exactly the same as "just modding the DVD player". You're modifying the firmware of something (motherboard vs DVD player) so that when the software restriction (region lock or serial key) check is done, it gets a pass because it thinks it's on something it isn't.

One distinction there, injecting the SLIC grants you access to something you didn't purchase, modding a DVD/Bluray player grants you access to something you did purchase.  That makes them very different things, in my opinion.

[LAwLz]

15 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

One distinction there, injecting the SLIC grants you access to something you didn't purchase, modding a DVD/Bluray player grants you access to something you did purchase.  That makes them very different things, in my opinion.

While that might seem logical from a consumer's POV, from an IP holder's POV you never bought authorization to view the movie in the country you are using it in. So in their eyes you are accessing something you didn't purchase. You didn't purchase the right to view the DVD in the country you're in. You bought the right to view the DVD in some other country.

 

It's similar to how you're not allowed to use a VPN to gain access to the US version of Netflix if you're not in the US. It goes against the terms of use outlined outlined here:

Quote

4.3. You may view the Netflix content primarily within the country in which you have established your account and only in geographic locations where we offer our service and have licensed such content. The content that may be available to watch will vary by geographic location and will change from time to time. The number of devices on which you may simultaneously watch depends on your chosen subscription plan and is specified on the "Account" page.

 

[jagdtigger]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

So in their eyes you are accessing something you didn't purchase. You didn't purchase the right to view the DVD in the country you're in. You bought the right to view the DVD in some other country.

And its this outdated ancient thinking is the reason why piracy is still a thing and its growing no matter how hard they try to keep their obsolete business model.

[Dabombinable]

52 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

While that might seem logical from a consumer's POV, from an IP holder's POV you never bought authorization to view the movie in the country you are using it in. So in their eyes you are accessing something you didn't purchase. You didn't purchase the right to view the DVD in the country you're in. You bought the right to view the DVD in some other country.

 

It's similar to how you're not allowed to use a VPN to gain access to the US version of Netflix if you're not in the US. It goes against the terms of use outlined outlined here:

 

That's like saying you bought a left hand drive Ford F150 in Australia and aren't allowed to drive it in the US.

[LAwLz]

8 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

That's like saying you bought a left hand drive Ford F150 in Australia and aren't allowed to drive it in the US.

Yep.

Consumers are constantly getting fucked in the ass by IP laws and contracts.

 

That's because according to the contract you don't actually buy a movie. You buy the rights to view the movie and the studio/creator/IP owner are the ones who decide under what terms you have the right to view the movie. They set the terms and you agree to follow those terms.

[Mihle]

Going around DRM and region locks in my country is a grey ara. The laws themselves and the exception from the laws is really vauge. 

As far as I know no one have been in court with it either in my country.

 

I rip my Blu-ray's and then delete the ones I know I never watch again and probably sell them, while keeping the ones I might watch again.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

While that might seem logical from a consumer's POV, from an IP holder's POV you never bought authorization to view the movie in the country you are using it in. So in their eyes you are accessing something you didn't purchase. You didn't purchase the right to view the DVD in the country you're in. You bought the right to view the DVD in some other country.

 

It's similar to how you're not allowed to use a VPN to gain access to the US version of Netflix if you're not in the US. It goes against the terms of use outlined outlined here:

 

Regardless of what you might assume IP owners think, the fact is it is not illegal to import a DVD from another region in the US or Australia or Canada, therefore changing an existing  setting on your dvd player to allow you to play a dvd you purchased and own legally is not by any stretch of the imagination trying to access something you didn't purchase and own.  There is a reason why there are no DMCA notices on websites that sell foreign region dvd's and/or players that play them or how to go about doing it.

 

 

[corsairian]

On 9/12/2018 at 3:52 PM, Dan Castellaneta said:

There's a reason I buy physical DVDs and CDs.

Choose your words wisely. I got made fun of for buying Physical Games and Movies on here a while ago.

 

I will NEVER stop buying physical copies of Video Games.I WANT MY BOX DAMMIT. 

[jagdtigger]

34 minutes ago, corsairian said:

I will NEVER stop buying physical copies of Video Games.I WANT MY BOX DAMMIT. 

You can push em up into your bottom hole if the activation servers disappear...

Edited September 21, 2018 by jagdtigger

[corsairian]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

You can stick em up into your bottom hole if the activation servers disappear...

That is true. But many of the games I own don't even require an online activation. the 2 games im playing right now Diablo 2 and Morrowind do not require internet. But then you get games like Fallout 4 where the disk only had 7gb of the ~25gb needed to play the game.. that was annoying. 

 

I have been thinking about that possibility happening. What if Steam disappeared tomorrow, what would happen to all of our games?

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, corsairian said:

What if Steam disappeared tomorrow, what would happen to all of our games?

Well since we are talking about stuff that we bought i would go and download them from an another source... (Legally speaking its gray area but i wouldnt skip any sleep because of it.)

 

/EDIT

Now that i think about it this could be a good topic on wan show....   Well what do you think about it @LinusTech?

Edited September 21, 2018 by jagdtigger

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, corsairian said:

 What if Steam disappeared tomorrow, what would happen to all of our games?

A legal shit fight, but those of us lucky enough to be in Australia, the ACCC will likely force all game devs to provide a patch ensuring games purchased continue to function. Because steam is effectively only a retailer. The game dev still has to provide applicable support.

 

 

[Technous285]

13 hours ago, corsairian said:

I have been thinking about that possibility happening. What if Steam disappeared tomorrow, what would happen to all of our games?

Valve has said a few times in the past: If Steam is to be shut down, they'll send out patches so your downloaded games won't need to load Steam to be played.

Effectively: Before Valve shuts down Steam, they'll patch out Steam from your games so you can still play them without the (technically) DRM that is Steam.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Technous285 said:

Valve has said a few times in the past: If Steam is to be shut down, they'll send out patches so your downloaded games won't need to load Steam to be played.

Effectively: Before Valve shuts down Steam, they'll patch out Steam from your games so you can still play them without the (technically) DRM that is Steam.

I've heard this too, although I can;t find it written anywhere.