[UPDATED] Stop Dave. I'm afraid. - Microsoft tests soft blocking Firefox and Chrome Installs

[Jtalk4456]

On 9/12/2018 at 12:09 PM, rcmaehl said:

Firefox was ruined for me when they nuked 90% of their add-ons/extensions with an update. I can no longer modify the appearance of firefox in the way that I want.

f to pay respects for the too many tabs toolbar...

On 9/12/2018 at 12:03 PM, GoodBytes said:

So the big question, is what would Edge needs to have as feature or improvement that will make you switch to Edge?

Does it need to be faster than Chrome? If so, by how much?

What feature you want? (for me, it is right-click on an image, and pick "View image", even if the image is a URL link. I think, and Media panel), and the Privacy it offers

The issue isn't that I need different features. I prefer the better ideals of firefox (outside of the above mentioned extension/addon nuke) and I love how fast it is, but edge is fine too. The problem is IE was horrible, everyone knows this. Microsoft knows it. Despite knowing how much we hated IE, they couldn't be bothered to make the icon different beyond removing the yellow ring and changing the color slightly. even with the ring removed, they left negative space where the ring was so you can still remember it. The problem with edge is not a lack of anything besides identity. They designed the logo to look like IE, but I don't have fond memories of IE so why would I use something that used to be terrible, even if it's better now? If they had put in some actual effort into designing it to be it's own browser instead of designing the logo and marketing you to remember IE, I might have given it a chance. They simply didn't give me any reason to believe they were different than IE. And even now knowing it's not just rebranded ie, there's nothing in particular about it that makes me want it over what I'm already using. 

[SupremeGOAT]

On 9/12/2018 at 9:14 AM, rcmaehl said:

sees prompt.... WOW! with this new and improved Microsoft edge, I can download chrome and firefox even faster!! thanks microsoft!

[ScratchCat]

17 hours ago, Sniperfox47 said:

The fact that you can force workarounds with another browser is absolutely no incentive to switch to that browser when you already use a browser that **doesn't need those workarounds**.

Of course a browser X which has the same features as browser Y but requires feature A to be added on is worse but that is not what I was pointing out.

18 hours ago, ScratchCat said:

My point is that if you want to use X browser for specific reasons there are workarounds to issues you may have with the program

If browser X has features you wanted to use but due to an issue the browser would be useless without a certain feature which browser Y currently has it is possible just to create your own solution. The competition you mentioned might not have brought around the change you required - Edge has so much competition that Microsoft is resorting to these rather unethical tactics yet it still has flaws.

17 hours ago, Sniperfox47 said:

The question here was about what would make you consider switching to Edge, if those are the things that you need done, they're things your existing browser already does, ans you'd need to fight with Edge to jankily shoehorn them onto the side without official support why would you switch over to Edge?

You would shoehorn them in if Edge provided benefits which outweighed the inconvenience of adding in the workaround. Using your Cortana example, you can either try get Firefox and Cortana to work correctly or fix the smaller issues with Edge for that workflow. The same applies to every pair of browsers with differing features.

[ZacoAttaco]

Microsoft: "Instead of improving Edge and actually making a worthwhile competitor...let's just try and stop people from using anything else"

I mean look at 'Firefox Quantum' or just Firefox now, they lagged behind, had other ventures like Firefox OS, but they actually took the time to make a great new competitive browser and now I've swapped from Chrome to Firefox. There's no reason Edge couldn't do this...what's stopping them? In fact, Microsoft actually probably had the edge on Firefox as it was an older browser.

[GoodBytes]

16 minutes ago, ZacoAttaco said:

Microsoft: "Instead of improving Edge and actually making a worthwhile competitor...let's just try and stop people from using anything else"

I mean look at 'Firefox Quantum' or just Firefox now, they lagged behind, had other ventures like Firefox OS, but they actually took the time to make a great new competitive browser and now I've swapped from Chrome to Firefox. There's no reason Edge couldn't do this...what's stopping them? In fact, Microsoft actually probably had the edge on Firefox as it was an older browser.

Sure but, Opera is a much better version of Chrome -> No market increase

Firefox reworked its engine and is really fast now (Quantum) -> No market share increase.

And this is despite each web browser has the ability to copy to import itself all ones bookmarks, passwords, and so on from another web browser without affecting it, so a person can try something new.

[ZacoAttaco]

13 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Sure but, Opera is a much better version of Chrome -> No market increase

Firefox reworked its engine and is really fast now (Quantum) -> No market share increase.

And this is despite each web browser has the ability to copy to import itself all ones bookmarks, passwords, and so on from another web browser without affecting it, so a person can try something new.

Well, I swapped, so there is a 0.0000000001% increase in market share, thank you very much.

 

I use EverSync for Bookmarks so I'm free to swap between Firefox and Chrome and I generally use Google services, I just find Firefox more enjoyable to use. I particularly like the way it fades to full screen, rather than Chromes staggered zoom to full screen, so clearly just personal preference

 

I think more people should try Firefox again, it deserves more attention than it's getting I say.

[LAwLz]

4 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Sure but, Opera is a much better version of Chrome -> No market increase

"Much better" how exactly? 

[alicskysareblue]

The title is misleading Microsoft is not "soft blocking"  they are just putting an annoying message in your screen. I doubt it will change much

[dalekphalm]

56 minutes ago, elderago said:

The title is misleading Microsoft is not "soft blocking"  they are just putting an annoying message in your screen. I doubt it will change much

What would you consider a "soft block", then?

 

It does block the installation at first - and you must override the block (by clicking the smaller and less prominent button) to continue installation.

 

I'd say "soft block" is a fairly decent description of that.

[mynameisjuan]

3 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

What would you consider a "soft block", then?

 

It does block the installation at first - and you must override the block (by clicking the smaller and less prominent button) to continue installation.

 

I'd say "soft block" is a fairly decent description of that.

So does that mean UAC is a soft block as well? 

[rcmaehl]

3 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

So does that mean UAC is a soft block as well? 

Yes. Sometimes a very annoying one.

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

So does that mean UAC is a soft block as well? 

Yes - I would say so. The difference is that UAC has a legitimate and pro-consumer purpose:

 

To ensure you actually meant to double click that EXE file, in case malware or other malicious software is attempting to make changes to your computer that you didn't intend.

 

The difference is that UAC is a good soft block, with a legitimate purpose, and this is anti-consumer and intended to scare people into using Edge who wouldn't know better.

[SolarNova]

Ah Windows 10, it just keep getting worse.

 

More reason to stick with Windows 7 (minus certain post W10 updates)

[mynameisjuan]

10 minutes ago, rcmaehl said:

Yes. Sometimes a very annoying one.

Then how would you survive OSX or Linux and  having to enter a password instead?

[dalekphalm]

Just now, mynameisjuan said:

Then how would you survive OSX or Linux and  having to enter a password instead?

You would suffer through the same annoyances.

 

Of course, on Linux, you don't need to enter your password unless you sudo, etc. I couldn't tell you how often that's required in day to day usage though.

 

For macOS, you need to enter the password when installing stuff - it's annoying, yes, but it's also a security feature.

 

THIS is not a security feature - despite the misleading wording of Microsoft's "pop up". This is designed to get greater Edge market share, not to "protect" users.

[GoodBytes]

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

Of course, on Linux, you don't need to enter your password unless you sudo, etc. I couldn't tell you how often that's required in day to day usage though.

Agree with what you say, but I'll add:

It can be a lot actually, depending on what you do (say you work on a backend system), while you don't do as much under Windows as you can just run the Command Prompt or program as admin and have it run all the time, and not do it on each command. Of course you could do su, and/or run as root, but then some program will not run, telling you can't be root, as a active to ensure people aren't true admin all the time.

 

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

THIS is not a security feature - despite the misleading wording of Microsoft's "pop up". This is designed to get greater Edge market share, not to "protect" users.

Well MS probably will argue the same argument that Apple users like to use: If market share is low, you are less likely to be a target, so it is more secure. 

[mynameisjuan]

6 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Of course, on Linux, you don't need to enter your password unless you sudo, etc. I couldn't tell you how often that's required in day to day usage though.

Same with windows. Its just an administrator prompt when installing. 

 

I am not saying that is on the same level as UAC. People were essentially saying earlier how they would just go through the trouble or installing different browsers other than Firefox or Chrome just to get around this intrusive pop-up rather than just click install anyway. Which completely ridiculous for a 1 time popup.

 

In reality its no different in terms of inconvenience.  

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Agree with what you say, but I'll add:

It can be a lot actually, depending on what you do (say you work on a backend system), while you don't do as much under Windows as you can just run the Command Prompt or program as admin and have it run all the time, and not do it on each command. Of course you could do su, and/or run as root, but then some program will not run, telling you can't be root, as a active to ensure people aren't true admin all the time.

True, but you could always log into Super User or Root on Linux... not that you should ever run a computer as Root...

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Well MS probably will argue the same argument that Apple users like to use: If market share is low, you are less likely to be a target, so it is more secure. 

They probably did consider that... and they'd be just as wrong as Apple, on that front

1 minute ago, mynameisjuan said:

Same with windows. Its just an administrator prompt when installing. 

 

I am not saying that is on the same level as UAC. People were essentially saying earlier how they would just go through the trouble or installing different browsers other than Firefox or Chrome just to get around this intrusive pop-up rather than just click install anyway. Which completely ridiculous for a 1 time popup.

Yeah - that argument is dumb. If you're gonna use FF or Chrome, use FF or Chrome. Don't install Chromium just to avoid this popup.

 

Instead, we let Microsoft know how stupid and anti-consumer this popup is, and they remove it.

[GoodBytes]

All I get to say, it must suck for the developers at MS who knows that this type of stuff is shit, but do it because they are pushed to do it by upper management/executive a person that doesn't know much or anything on software or its users or consumer coming up with these ideas. I won't be surprised if they are internal battles on this, and the end result is "ok, fine... we won't put it in if there is a backlash, but do it!". and the devs or dev manager goes "fine!". It is like game developers that must put all this micro transaction crap in their game, ruining the initial vision of the game, and possibly ruining kids lifes by introducing them to gambling at such young age. But at least, the devs at Microsoft can sleep at night.

[Kroon]

On 2018-09-13 at 4:27 PM, Sniperfox47 said:

Nah because Edge isn't a market dominance they won't do anything, they'll just sit on their hands. Because shit like this is only anticompetitive if you're the bigger kid on the block /s >.>

Earlier lawsuits against MS prioritising their own browser was not due to IE was dominant but due to Windows was dominant and MS used that dominance to become dominant even with the browser.

 

Sent an mail to EU representative asking about this since he is a lawyer.  He is 100% sure this would be in breach of the agreement MS and EU reach 4 years ago and EU would definitely fine MS. 

[Trik'Stari]

On 9/12/2018 at 9:59 PM, Drak3 said:

Except that more often than not, Edge is the faster, safer browser.

Either way it could still be considered damaging to the competitor, and an unfair advantage to Microsoft. Both of which are potentially legally contentious. Also both of those statements are quite subjective.

 

On 9/12/2018 at 10:15 PM, iamdarkyoshi said:

Its the forced updates, ads, self installing bloat, etc that should already have been a lawsuit. My fucking zip manager got changed to winzip from 7zip as it downloaded, installed, and set defaults to winzip the day I put a fresh copy of windows 10 on my desktop.

 

A fresh install will download and install over 1GB of bloatware/crap after doing nothing but sitting there after doing the initial setup. Its completely unacceptable. I'm using enterprise LTSB now for this very reason.

Oh I agree. I can't wait for someone to finally compromise their update service, hundreds of millions of devices to get infected, and M$ to go out of business from the resulting class action lawsuit combined with negative press.

[Trik'Stari]

On 9/13/2018 at 10:32 AM, GoodBytes said:

Update:

Microsoft said that will not push forward with the pop-up. ZDNet says that they are no longer getting the pop-up in their Insider build, and Microsoft says:

https://www.onmsft.com/news/microsoft-quietly-takes-controversial-edge-ads-offline-says-its-part-of-insider-testing

I wouldn't be surprised if their legal department got wind of this and shat out a massive brick over it.

[Arika]

18 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

I wouldn't be surprised if their legal department got wind of this and shat out a massive brick over it.

agreed it seems like a decision that was made without consulting with the correct departments.

[mr moose]

22 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

I wouldn't be surprised if their legal department got wind of this and shat out a massive brick over it.

I wouldn't be surprised if they only did it to gauge community response.   

[Stefan Payne]

On 12.9.2018 at 4:14 PM, rcmaehl said:

Microsoft is testing adding additional prompts to try to prevent users from switching to alternative browsers.

Isn't that a violation of the EU Ruling that was against Microsoft for integrating Browsers in their Operating systems?

 

That's why we got the "N" Versions of Windows...