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[UPDATED] Stop Dave. I'm afraid. - Microsoft tests soft blocking Firefox and Chrome Installs

rcmaehl
35 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I am fairly sure asterisks are needed in order to clarify these types of things which can be misinterpreted in commercials.

Simply being misleading is enough to be classified as false advertisement. What Microsoft means doesn't really matter, because according to the law what matters is how people interpret it.

Here is a quote from the Australian competition & consumer commission:

 

Nope, they all get away with it for that very reason:

 

How many:

-news outlets claim to be first and exclusive

-analgesics claim to be the fastest acting

-car dealers claim to be the best in town

-shops claiming to have the lowest prices

-to be the only supplement that actually works

-any product advertised with the words: "free", "easy" and "garunteed", however the product is anything but.

 

 

They are just words and it seems you need to show it is correct in one instance.

 

35 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Do you not believe that the statement made by Microsoft is likely to create a false impression that Edge is faster and safer than let's say Chrome on a Windows 10 computer? Not just faster at one specific thing, but faster overall.

see here:

10 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

Personally I would like to see a global crack down on dodgy advertising and misleading statements, but it isn't going to happen anytime soon.  The best we can do is try to educate the consumer, however as has been pointed out several times by prominent psychologists, you can't teach critical thinking, you can only point out the variances as subject and hope they start to critically question them.  From my experience people tend to just assume they already know and consequently don't see the other side of the debate let alone question its validity.  

 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Can you even right click to search with Google in Edge

Create a script in AutoHotKey or the like to search the currently selected text in the search engine of your choice.

This is more useful than if it where to be added to Edge as it works in every application: Edge, Word, Terminal etc.

 

9 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

It is user account, not user. And it is probably used to associate users behavior on multiple devices when they do fancy charts. Regardless it is not being sold directly. The data in Edge, Cortana and other Microsoft services is, or is used for Bing ad platform for targeted ads. But telemetry data collection of Windows isn't.

Do you have a source for that? For an entity like Microsoft whose goal it is to generate as much advertising revenue as possible do you think that they would leave the records of interactions with Windows of > of users

 

6 hours ago, iamdarkyoshi said:

A fresh install will download and install over 1GB of bloatware/crap after doing nothing but sitting there after doing the initial setup. Its completely unacceptable. I'm using enterprise LTSB now for this very reason.

The main issue is you have to download the bloatware unless you uninstall them before connecting to a network as selecting uninstall during the installation simply seems to hide them until the install is complete. Maybe this is just a bug, probably it is by design.

 

4 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Given the text used and the fact that it only appears on installation of a new browser, this is really just UAC that recommends the built in browser.

UAC fulfills a real use, this prompt is not only misleading but also targets specific installers in an attempt to steal market share. This would be the same as you ISP redirecting you to a warning page on how their product is better every time (or at least when you try to buy a product) you attempt to access the website of another ISP.

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Don't get why some are so upset though, just a reminder prompt. We've seen much worse shit from other companies where people are not as half as vocal about it. Also to be fair, many didn't gave Edge a chance though. It's actually very fast. Though personally I use Opera and Vivaldi :)

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59 minutes ago, ScratchCat said:

Create a script in AutoHotKey or the like to search the currently selected text in the search engine of your choice.

This is more useful than if it where to be added to Edge as it works in every application: Edge, Word, Terminal etc.

That's slow, wastes resources and locks up the controls for the duration of the script. It should just be a feature in the browser.

Remember, we're talking about what Edge would have to do in order to make me consider it. Besides, I don't want it everywhere. I just want it in my browser.

 

20 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

Don't get why some are so upset though, just a reminder prompt. We've seen much worse shit from other companies where people are not as half as vocal about it. Also to be fair, many didn't gave Edge a chance though. It's actually very fast. Though personally I use Opera and Vivaldi :)

No, it's not a "reminder prompt". Even Microsoft calls it a warning. A warning to not install other browsers.

"Other companies are doing bad things too" is not shield that blocks Microsoft from criticism. Wanna complain about what other companies are doing? Make threads about that. This thread is about Microsoft and their disgusting behavior, so that is what being discussed in this thread.

Also, I have tried Edge on several occasions, and it's terrible. I find it extremely slow to use not because websites load slowly, but because of terrible GUI, lack of features, and it works in weird ways (like not being able to drag a link to a new tab).

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17 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

 it's not a "reminder prompt". Even Microsoft calls it a warning. A warning to not install other browsers.

"Other companies are doing bad things too" is not shield that blocks Microsoft from criticism. Wanna complain about what other companies are doing? Make threads about that. This thread is about Microsoft and their disgusting behavior, so that is what being discussed in this thread.

Also, I have tried Edge on several occasions, and it's terrible. I find it extremely slow to use not because websites load slowly, but because of terrible GUI, lack of features, and it works in weird ways (like not being able to drag a link to a new tab).

I mean, calling it a warning, wouldn't that mean that software you're about to install is potentially harmful. And for something like popular browsers it can't be. Just saying. Ow and I didn't meant it as a shieldblock, it's just funny that for some much worse shit people just shug it though. 

Just curios when was the lat time you tried Edge I wonder. Featurs aside, the main thing I find slow and annoying in it as in UI is it's tabs use and how they tend to hang for a bit from time to time. 

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38 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

I mean, calling it a warning, wouldn't that mean that software you're about to install is potentially harmful. And for something like popular browsers it can't be. Just saying.

"Warning" is not my words, it's Microsoft.

If you look at the screenshot of the popup that appears when you try to install Chrome, Microsoft labels the popup as a warning.

 

39 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

Ow and I didn't meant it as a shieldblock, it's just funny that for some much worse shit people just shug it though. 

I'm just happy that people notices some of the shit going on. For a lot of the terrible stuff happening there is at least some kind of defense. Like with telemetry in Windows 10 people can claim that it's just for making Windows better. I don't believe in that argument, but some people do and use it as a justification. In this scenario though, there really is no valid justification. It's just a very bad thing to do.

 

41 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

Just curios when was the lat time you tried Edge I wonder. Featurs aside, the main thing I find slow and annoying in it as in UI is it's tabs use and how they tend to hang for a bit from time to time. 

I tried it when Edge 17 was released, which was I believe in July.

I also tried it for a little while when writing that previous post, because I wanted to make sure my list didn't include anything that had been fixed.

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19 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

So the big question, is what would Edge needs to have as feature or improvement that will make you switch to Edge?

Does it need to be faster than Chrome? If so, by how much?

What feature you want? (for me, it is right-click on an image, and pick "View image", even if the image is a URL link. I think, and Media panel), and the Privacy it offers

Tab stacking, PIP web panel, all the extensions I use, search bar/adress bar at the top when you open a new tab and not in an effin center of the screen

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4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

What Microsoft has done:

Shown a quite large ad among the search results on Bing when searching for Chrome.

  Reveal hidden contents

desperate-microsoft-attempt-to-prevent-google-chrome-download-goes-viral-519204-2.jpg.72ed0b7463d75e475b01525d6f9ad26a.jpg

 

Pushed their own shopping assistant addon through notifications that seem to come from Chrome.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

ad.PNG.cf144bf713f55d07d880c3e2076e61ae.PNG

 

 

 

Pushed popup ads for Bing rewards if Edge is in the taskbar.

  Reveal hidden contents

windows-10-toolbar-ad-100691547-orig.jpg.364fdcc5caef6def77053e981455c1f4.jpg

 

Shown "tips" that Chrome is draining their battery and recommend switching to Edge instead.

  Reveal hidden contents

battery-drain-100691606-orig.thumb.jpg.2fb321b934ad89751f0bae6b69c5a005.jpg

 

 

These pop-ups or ads are ones I have never seen before (Except the first one, may have seen it before). It's most likely that the options I disabled at initial install may prevent this from happening. Regardless, it's a rather cheeky move from Microsoft. If this does eventually go through, they will have a lot of backlash in the tech community. 

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33 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

That's slow, wastes resources and locks up the controls for the duration of the script. It should just be a feature in the browser.

How does it waste resources?

  • Memory: AutoHotKey uses around 2.5MB of memory, less than both the non-UWP calculator and task manager. You seem to be complaining about a 0.5% increase in memory usage while one tab is open in Firefox. Here someone mentions that their 1500 line script takes up around 4MB of memory.
  • CPU: We are talking about 3 lines of a script being executed in comparison to a complete webpage. Even spamming the hotkey I cannot get the process to move from 0% in task manager.

image.png.f6ef8fab7742ee834f063f15998a4fa5.png

 

How is it slow? Really the key combination would be faster - pressing one or more keys compared to right click, wait for context menu to open with an animation, navigate to the correct entry and then clicking.

 

Locking up - Not for me and even if it did, the < 0.1s it takes to execute would hardly impeed you.

 

33 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Remember, we're talking about what Edge would have to do in order to make me consider it. Besides, I don't want it everywhere. I just want it in my browser.

Sometimes you have to solve the problem youself (As you have said Microsoft are not particularly keen on improving Windows for the end-user), be this in the form of an extension, a change in the browser config or a script.

You can configure it to only work when certain windows are selected.

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20 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

"Warning" is not my words, it's Microsoft.

If you look at the screenshot of the popup that appears when you try to install Chrome, Microsoft labels the popup as a warning.

I mean ok though it may just be the default notification type used and or they just meant "warning" as prompt. I mean it doesn't really matter much anyway.

20 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I'm just happy that people notices some of the shit going on. For a lot of the terrible stuff happening there is at least some kind of defense. Like with telemetry in Windows 10 people can claim that it's just for making Windows better. I don't believe in that argument, but some people do and use it as a justification. In this scenario though, there really is no valid justification. It's just a very bad thing to do.

Yeah, as far as telemetry used to such extreme to make Windows better I don't buy it either. Sure some type of general data how system works and is being used I can see, but to such lengths about privacy and personalizations that don't have direct use to 'make Windows better' is lame excuse. Like just data harvesting along. I mean if they want to gather as much as possible and not look bad about it they could make everything completely optional with detail description, so maybe some wouldn't mind and they wouldn't get hate.

20 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I tried it when Edge 17 was released, which was I believe in July.

I also tried it for a little while when writing that previous post, because I wanted to make sure my list didn't include anything that had been fixed.

Right, well it's improving so that's good, wish they update it more faster and separate more from Windows updates cycle.

Also it does pass Acid3 test xD

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This really isn't about which browser is "better" as that is very subjective.

 

This is about Microsoft trying to get it's users to use what they want you to use, and trying to block or make it difficult to use what you want to use. It's the principle.   

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I smell another EU cartel investigation with a fine in the billions...

Use the quote function when answering! Mark people directly if you want an answer from them!

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2 hours ago, ScratchCat said:

Sometimes you have to solve the problem youself (As you have said Microsoft are not particularly keen on improving Windows for the end-user), be this in the form of an extension, a change in the browser config or a script.

You can configure it to only work when certain windows are selected.

...why would you go through all of that work hacking a janky solution on top of a browser just to use it when there are browsers that already have it properly implimented that you can just use instead? That's why competition exists to offer options.

 

I could see it being justified if Edge had other massively redeeming features that outweigh the headaches but saying "see this isn't actually a problem, you can just hack in your own fix" is totally missing the forest through the trees.

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13 minutes ago, bowrilla said:

I smell another EU cartel investigation with a fine in the billions...

Nah because Edge isn't a market dominance they won't do anything, they'll just sit on their hands. Because shit like this is only anticompetitive if you're the bigger kid on the block /s >.>

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Update:

Microsoft said that will not push forward with the pop-up. ZDNet says that they are no longer getting the pop-up in their Insider build, and Microsoft says:

Quote

We’ve tested this functionality with Insiders only – The Windows Insider Program enables Microsoft to test different features, functionality and garner feedback before rolling out broadly. Customers remain in control and can choose the browser of their choice.

https://www.onmsft.com/news/microsoft-quietly-takes-controversial-edge-ads-offline-says-its-part-of-insider-testing

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3 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Update:

Microsoft said that will not push forward with the pop-up. ZDNet says that they are no longer getting the pop-up in their Insider build, and Microsoft says:

https://www.onmsft.com/news/microsoft-quietly-takes-controversial-edge-ads-offline-says-its-part-of-insider-testing

So they figured they couldn't get away with it...yet.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, LordOTaco said:

So they figured they couldn't get away with it...yet.

Not in this world line apparently.

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6 minutes ago, rcmaehl said:

Not in this world line apparently.

Don't trust Microsoft.  They have a monopoly on the time machine and tech industry and have coopted with CERN to take full control...El Psy Congroo.

 

 

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On 12/09/2018 at 3:18 PM, PCGuy_5960 said:

Well guess what Microsoft? No one is gonna use Edge anyways.

And now the thought of Linux for my laptop seems more and more like a good idea.

Judge a product on its own merits AND the company that made it.

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3 hours ago, ScratchCat said:

How does it waste resources?

  • Memory: AutoHotKey uses around 2.5MB of memory, less than both the non-UWP calculator and task manager. You seem to be complaining about a 0.5% increase in memory usage while one tab is open in Firefox. Here someone mentions that their 1500 line script takes up around 4MB of memory.
  • CPU: We are talking about 3 lines of a script being executed in comparison to a complete webpage. Even spamming the hotkey I cannot get the process to move from 0% in task manager.

image.png.f6ef8fab7742ee834f063f15998a4fa5.png

 

How is it slow? Really the key combination would be faster - pressing one or more keys compared to right click, wait for context menu to open with an animation, navigate to the correct entry and then clicking.

 

Locking up - Not for me and even if it did, the < 0.1s it takes to execute would hardly impeed you.

 

Sometimes you have to solve the problem youself (As you have said Microsoft are not particularly keen on improving Windows for the end-user), be this in the form of an extension, a change in the browser config or a script.

You can configure it to only work when certain windows are selected.

Look, if it works for you then that's great.

However, to me it is a really clunky solution to a problem that shouldn't even exist to begin with.

Even if it's just a few MB here, and a few CPU cycles there, it's just so "inelegant". Anyway, GoodBytes asked what I would want from Edge and I answered. There may be workarounds for some other stuff I mentioned, but I'm not going to change browser just to have to implement a bunch of workarounds to get it on par with what I already have.

 

 

1 hour ago, LordOTaco said:

So they figured they couldn't get away with it...yet.

That's what I was thinking too.

Seems to me like they are testing the waters for how much they can get away with. People got upset about this so they backed down. Maybe they will try a slightly less intrusive block later when the dust has settled.

 

 

3 hours ago, WereCat said:

search bar/adress bar at the top when you open a new tab and not in an effin center of the screen

They actually fixed that. You now have the regular address bar plus the centered address bar when opening a new tab.

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57 minutes ago, LordOTaco said:

Don't trust Microsoft.  They have a monopoly on the time machine and tech industry and have coopted with CERN to take full control...El Psy Congroo.

Nope, that's Apple …

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21 minutes ago, bowrilla said:

Nope, that's Apple …

Damn the world line has shifted too much.  Have we gone too far?  Oh god what if we can't go back?

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sniperfox47 said:

...why would you go through all of that work hacking a janky solution on top of a browser just to use it when there are browsers that already have it properly implimented that you can just use instead? That's why competition exists to offer options.

 

I could see it being justified if Edge had other massively redeeming features that outweigh the headaches but saying "see this isn't actually a problem, you can just hack in your own fix" is totally missing the forest through the trees.

 

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

There may be workarounds for some other stuff I mentioned, but I'm not going to change browser just to have to implement a bunch of workarounds to get it on par with what I already have.

My point is that if you want to use X browser for specific reasons there are workarounds to issues you may have with the program. What if you wanted an animated theme in Firefox and you don't want to switch to alternative Y because all your devices use Firefox Sync? Just do 10 minutes of research, alter one config variable and done.

 

That temporary solution was there to point out that there are options other than waiting for Microsoft, Mozilla or Google to fix the issue in the browser, they have millions of other users to deal with.

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22 hours ago, mynameisjuan said:

Well people were annoyed like I have never seen before when Vista was released and there was a new prompt when installing a program. People's heads were exploding. Didnt hurt windows.

 

This is a one time prompt

What exactly do you mean that it didn't hurt windows?

 

Back then i was still a kid but i did hang around the local IT store and almost every laptop that was sold with Vista never booted it a single time.

They came out of the box and first thing that happend with it was starting the installation of XP. It was so common i knew how to install XP perfectly but i never installed Vista a single time. I hated Vista back then and i still hate it today. The fact companies barely deployed Vista is also a clear sign it was crap.

 

This specific case won't hurt Microsoft much. But this is another annoyance of an OS that's already filled with a bunch if little annoyances. It's a bucket that is clearly filling up slowly and we don't know which drop will be the last one, but as time goes by we are getting closer and closer to that point.

It might still be 5 years away, maybe 10, maybe 2, nobody knows but stuff can change fast if people finally have enough of it.

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1 hour ago, ScratchCat said:

 

My point is that if you want to use X browser for specific reasons there are workarounds to issues you may have with the program. What if you wanted an animated theme in Firefox and you don't want to switch to alternative Y because all your devices use Firefox Sync? Just do 10 minutes of research, alter one config variable and done.

 

That temporary solution was there to point out that there are options other than waiting for Microsoft, Mozilla or Google to fix the issue in the browser, they have millions of other users to deal with.

Your comment is missing the point entirely.

 

The fact that you can force workarounds with another browser is absolutely no incentive to switch to that browser when you already use a browser that **doesn't need those workarounds**.

 

The question here was about what would make you consider switching to Edge, if those are the things that you need done, they're things your existing browser already does, ans you'd need to fight with Edge to jankily shoehorn them onto the side without official support why would you switch over to Edge?

 

Just because a thing can be done does not mean it can be done with the same value proposition as another option.

 

Edge is inherently and emperically worse for a workflow that relies on those features. The fact that you can work around those deficiencies doesn't change that fact.

 

And just to be clear this isn't just bashing on Edge. It's literally  no different than how firefox is inherently worse than Edge for a workflow that relies on sharing web pages from the Cortana app on your phone. You can use workarounds to do it, but Edge has an inherently better workflow with it because of the tighter integration.

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