[UPDATED] Stop Dave. I'm afraid. - Microsoft tests soft blocking Firefox and Chrome Installs

[Jito463]

1 hour ago, Master Delta Chief said:

Only reason you should use Edge is when something doesn't work in Chrome or Firefox.

Wait, so everyone else doesn't have half a dozen other browsers installed for testing?

 

..

 

No, just me then?  Alrighty.

 

^{(to be accurate, I don't even let Chrome near my computer, much less use it for "testing")}

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

Safari is not a threat nor is netscape. Opera is and it is weird its not included. Also Safari has the same market share but 99.99999% of that is because Macs. 

True, but the option is there, and without a warning for these other browsers, it could hint people towards them, instead of edge. 

[mynameisjuan]

Just now, RorzNZ said:

True, but the option is there, and without a warning for these other browsers, it could hint people towards them, instead of edge. 

So its easier to try other browsers than just hit "install anyway"? 

 

People are blowing up the importance of this 1 time popup

[Guest]

Just now, mynameisjuan said:

So its easier to try other browsers than just hit "install anyway"? 

 

People are blowing up the importance of this 1 time popup

I think its more because this is the first time its a pretty large soft block for this type of thing. Just about everyone on here uses Chrome, so it's a big deal. 

[Master Delta Chief]

2 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

Wait, so everyone else doesn't have half a dozen other browsers installed for testing?

 

..

 

No, just me then?  Alrighty.

 

^{(to be accurate, I don't even let Chrome near my computer, much less use it for "testing")}

I should rephrase what I said: Only use Edge as a testing browser or just when all else fails. Of course there are plenty of other browsers out there besides the two I mentioned. I just pointed those two out as they are in the top 3 used browsers these days. 

 

Oh and no, you're obviously not the only one out there with more than one browser installed on a single computer. I currently have 3 installed (Ofc not counting Edge). 

[Jito463]

Just now, Master Delta Chief said:

Oh and no, you're obviously not the only one out there with more than one browser installed on a single computer. I currently have 3 installed (Ofc not counting Edge).

Oh, I know.  I was being facetious for humor's sake.

[Trik'Stari]

I bet a lawyer could argue that this particular "Warning" is misleading and could this be considered anti-competitive (nevermind that it is completely anti-competitive and an absolutely shit move by Microsoft) or possibly damaging to Chrome or FireFox.

 

If it interrupted you to simply say "why don't you try MS Edge for free?" that would be just advertising, but claiming to be "the faster, safer browser" could be consider misleading to the lay-person.

 

I won't be surprised if Chrome and FF sue the shit out of M$ over this language if they end up implementing this in the wider-spread version of W10.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Trik'Stari said:

If it interrupted you to simply say "why don't you try MS Edge for free?" that would be just advertising, but claiming to be "the faster, safer browser" could be consider misleading to the lay-person.

Except that more often than not, Edge is the faster, safer browser.

[iamdarkyoshi]

11 hours ago, LAwLz said:

This is the kind of shit they should be sued over. It should be completely unacceptable behavior from a legal and ethical standpoint. 

 

Fuck off Microsoft. 

Its the forced updates, ads, self installing bloat, etc that should already have been a lawsuit. My fucking zip manager got changed to winzip from 7zip as it downloaded, installed, and set defaults to winzip the day I put a fresh copy of windows 10 on my desktop.

 

A fresh install will download and install over 1GB of bloatware/crap after doing nothing but sitting there after doing the initial setup. Its completely unacceptable. I'm using enterprise LTSB now for this very reason.

[Jito463]

48 minutes ago, iamdarkyoshi said:

Its the forced updates, ads, self installing bloat, etc that should already have been a lawsuit

While I agree with this in vanilla Windows 10, a properly tweaked install doesn't have to deal with any of this.  I should know, I haven't had a problem with a single one of those things since about a month after I installed 10.  Neuter Cortana, strip out the store and set updates to only download/install when I tell it, and Windows 10 is a whole different beast.

[iamdarkyoshi]

Just now, Jito463 said:

properly tweaked install doesn't have to deal with any of this

But a "professional" marketed OS still does it. While you can disable stuff, you shouldn't have to. Win10 pro costs 200$ on their site. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/windows-10-pro/df77x4d43rkt/48DN

 

A 200$ operating system shouldn't be this awful

[Dabombinable]

4 minutes ago, iamdarkyoshi said:

But a "professional" marketed OS still does it. While you can disable stuff, you shouldn't have to. Win10 pro costs 200$ on their site. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/windows-10-pro/df77x4d43rkt/48DN

 

A 200$ operating system shouldn't be this awful

Which is I went back to Windows 7 Pro. I might have to pay for a separate program to get perfect multi screen functionality (which I'm not using at the moment anyway-need a bigger desk), but I don't have to put up with Windows 10 Pro's shit, and I can control every aspect of the OS.
I can even remove components such as IE from Windows 7 completely without breaking its functionality. And I don't have to uninstall the crappy mobile game ports and apps that come pre-installed.

[Jito463]

15 minutes ago, iamdarkyoshi said:

But a "professional" marketed OS still does it. While you can disable stuff, you shouldn't have to.

I can't disagree with you, I'm simply saying that it is possible to make Windows 10 behave itself.  Of course, it does pretty much require having the professional version, since you can't easily disable Windows updates with the Home edition.

[MEC-777]

Keep it up, Microsoft. The arms of Linux are wide open, ready to embrace.  

[Drak3]

Meh, no more annoying than UAC prompts.

[Jito463]

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Meh, no more annoying than UAC prompts.

It's a bit more annoying.  UAC just tries to (rather hamfistedly) prevent you from doing something stupid, this tries to get you to do something stupid (a.k.a. use Edge).

[Drak3]

Just now, Jito463 said:

It's a bit more annoying.  UAC just tries to (rather hamfistedly) prevent you from doing something stupid, this tries to get you to do something stupid (a.k.a. use Edge).

Given the text used and the fact that it only appears on installation of a new browser, this is really just UAC that recommends the built in browser.

 

And Edge is rather good, better than Chrome and trading blows with Firefox.

[LAwLz]

16 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

The battle of pop-ups to switch to a service provider clearly is ongoing with Google showing pop-ups to use its Chrome web browser, and Microsoft pushing pop-ups on its site, and soon Windows 10 to use Edge. Microsoft previously attempted to show different pop-ups in Windows 10 to push Edge, but has backtracked them after backlash.

 

 

If you want to think about it positively:

1. You can turn it off (if it wasn't already), and the option seems to sync with your MS profile and should not pop-up on your next re-install (if you use a MS linked account)
2. It shows up once, when you install Chrome or Firefox, and not each time you start the web browser, like website does when you visit them (although Microosft does it for its services)

Why are you trying to pretend like this is some battle where Google and Microsoft are both doing bad things?

This is what Google has done:

Shown a little ad in the top right corner when you visit google.com in a non-Chrome browser.

 

What Microsoft has done:

Shown a quite large ad among the search results on Bing when searching for Chrome.

Spoiler

 

Pushed their own shopping assistant addon through notifications that seem to come from Chrome.

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Pushed popup ads for Bing rewards if Edge is in the taskbar.

Spoiler

 

Shown "tips" that Chrome is draining their battery and recommend switching to Edge instead.

Spoiler

 

Blocks third party browsers from being submitted to the store (all of them are just reskinned versions of Edge, with possibly some minor tweaks).

 

They also interrupt attempts to change default browser in the settings by asking if you're really sure that you want to switch default browser. This does not happen when you try to change the default program for anything else, like maps.

 

And now they are literally showing huge warnings to users when they try and install another browser.

 

 

16 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

If you want to think about it positively:

1. You can turn it off (if it wasn't already), and the option seems to sync with your MS profile and should not pop-up on your next re-install (if you use a MS linked account)
2. It shows up once, when you install Chrome or Firefox, and not each time you start the web browser, like website does when you visit them (although Microosft does it for its services)

That's not thinking absolute it positively. That's just saying "things could have been worse".

If you get HIV then it's not positive that "it's not AIDS". Same thing here, it's not positive that it only shows up once when it is a really bad thing that it shows up at all.

Stop trying to make all the terrible things Microsoft does sound positive and good.

 

 

16 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Edge has been downloaded from the Google Play Store over 5 million times so far, with a review score of 4.4/5, and includes passing links from Phone to PC feature.

Fun fact, the "edge" in the Google Play Store is just a reskinned version of Chrome. Edge on Android doesn't even use Microsoft's browser engine (even though it is allowed).

 

 

 

 

 

16 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

This is also bad - two wrongs don't make a right.

 

We should be calling out both Google and Microsoft for their anti-competitive/anti-consumer actions.

I don't think Google showing an ad on google.com is anti-competitive.

I mean, I wouldn't complain if the only thing Microsoft did was show an ad for Edge when browsing bing.com. Especially not if it just showed up once and could be dismissed with a single click.

 

Starting to show system notifications warning users.

Making it seem like the third party program is sending ads.

Hijacking and interrupting installations of third party software.

Stuff like that on the other hand seems very anti-competitive.

 

What Google is doing is advertising their software.

What Microsoft is doing is making competing software seem worse (pushing ads through them) and attempting to make it difficult to install competing software (and in the case of the store and Windows 10 S, completely blocking it).

[LAwLz]

16 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

So the big question, is what would Edge needs to have as feature or improvement that will make you switch to Edge?

Does it need to be faster than Chrome? If so, by how much?

What feature you want? (for me, it is right-click on an image, and pick "View image", even if the image is a URL link. I think, and Media panel), and the Privacy it offers

Stop trying to derail the thread.

 

This thread is about Microsoft's attempt at hijacking installs of third party software in an attempt to scare people into using their products, and how despicable that is.

This is not a "imagine how great Edge could be" thread.

 

This is the second time I see you trying to steer the conversation away from discussing Microsoft's actions.

 

 

But if you really want an answer:

1) Make it open source. Not just part it, all of it. And put it under a good GPL-compatible license.

2) Decouple it from Windows completely, as in, it can even be uninstalled. If I don't want it, then I shouldn't be forced to have it.

3) Fix their quite lacking CSS support (overall web standard support has gotten a lot better though, because that used to be terrible too).

4) Allow me to drag text into the address bar and have it open in a new tab. Actually, allow me to drag anything (like files) into the address bar and have it open would be good (just like Chrome and Firefox does). I use this all the time.

5) More customization, like in Firefox where you can move buttons around.

6) Fix their horrible right click menu. It used to not even have "save target as". It does now but I constantly run into situations where I right click and the option I want doesn't exist when using Edge. Can you even right click to search with Google in Edge?

7) Fix the terrible UI. Lists upon lists upon lists.... I have a wide screen monitor Microsoft. A very narrow list that I have to scroll through is one of the worst ways you can arrange your options in. Just look at the advanced settings for example. There are no categories, just a long list. Check out the way they present the SSL certificates too. Terrible.

8) Search in your web history.

9) Stop trying to push it in these horrible, unethical ways.

10) Don't track anything I do through the browser. I know Chrome does this too, but my primary browser is Firefox. Would that mean they wouldn't make any money from Edge? Probably, but that's their problem. It is one of the reasons my browser comes from a non-profit organization and I won't switch unless Microsoft can match that.

11) Fix their terrible image scaling algorithm. Seriously. Visit this page in both Chrome and Edge, and you will see how shitty the Edge picture looks. I've added a comparison in the spoiler (click on this link to open the image in full res, and not just look at it through the forum software). This becomes a very big issue when websites don't generate separate files for thumbnails, and instead just constrict full size images into a thumbnail space. I don't have any examples of this right now, but I could probably find a few if I looked around. In any case, images will look horrible in Edge if they are high res images that tries to be displayed in a small space. Chrome and Firefox don't have this problem.

Spoiler

12) Be better than my current browser in some way(s) which is a big enough deal for me to actually switch. Not sure what that is yet, because so far I have only listed things which would bring it somewhat on-par with Firefox or Chrome. But just being on-par isn't enough to make me switch, because you know, I have no reason to switch unless the thing I switch to is BETTER.

 

That's all I can think of for now, but since I rarely use Edge I find it hard to come up with things that annoy me. The more I use it, the more things I would probably find.

[GoodBytes]

43 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Why are you trying to pretend like this is some battle where Google and Microsoft are both doing bad things?

This is what Google has done:

Shown a little ad in the top right corner when you visit google.com in a non-Chrome browser

 

Oh yes, poor little Google, the perfect company.

[GoodBytes]

12 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Stop trying to derail the thread.

 

This thread is about Microsoft's attempt at hijacking installs of third party software in an attempt to scare people into using their products, and how despicable that is.

This is not a "imagine how great Edge could be" thread.

 

This is the second time I see you trying to steer the conversation away from discussing Microsoft's actions.

What derailment? We are still talking about the same topic. It is called pushing the conversation forward. Now, look who is derailing? Do you want to talk on that?

Or how about LAwLz is always right, Google is this pure innocent company, has never done any wrong doing, oh poor company, trying to survive in this world of BIG EEEEEVIIILL Microsoft. Please.

[LAwLz]

9 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

Conjugation of the meaning.   It doesn't matter if chrome is faster on youtube, it only has to interact with windows faster than the others to be labeled as such.  In fact it only has to be faster in one thing when running in windows to be accurately labeled faster.  The statement does not indicate it is faster than everything across all uses, just that is the faster browser for windows.  

I am fairly sure asterisks are needed in order to clarify these types of things which can be misinterpreted in commercials.

Simply being misleading is enough to be classified as false advertisement. What Microsoft means doesn't really matter, because according to the law what matters is how people interpret it.

Here is a quote from the Australian competition & consumer commission:

Quote

Businesses are not allowed to make statements that are incorrect or likely to create a false impression.

 

Do you not believe that the statement made by Microsoft is likely to create a false impression that Edge is faster and safer than let's say Chrome on a Windows 10 computer? Not just faster at one specific thing, but faster overall.

[Sauron]

Wasn't MS sued to the moon and back for exactly this sort of abuse of their platform to push their other products?

[LAwLz]

21 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Oh yes, poor little Google, the perfect company.

Never said they were perfect. I will happily talk shit about Google, but only in threads which are actually about Google. You probably know that I don't hold back when it comes to talking shit about Apple, and yet I have not brought up Apple in this thread. Why? Because this thread is about Microsoft, not Apple or some other company. Bringing up other things other companies are doing really doesn't serve any other purpose than to derail the conversation.

 

It's just that your desperate attempt to change the subject to "look at how bad Google is!" whenever Microsoft does something horrible is getting really tiring. I hope I am not the only one noticing that you do this.

Whenever Microsoft does something bad you fly in with "but google!". In this case you're being extra ridiculous because you're comparing a tiny ad in the corner of a website to all this despicable shit Microsoft is doing. What Microsoft is doing is quite possible illegal, and I truly hope they get hit with an anti-trust lawsuit because of this. They truly deserve it. Stop trying to compare all this garbage behavior to that little ad and go "well, looks like both companies are bad!".

 

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

What derailment? We are still talking about the same topic. It is called pushing the conversation forward. Now, look who is derailing? Do you want to talk on that?

Or how about LAwLz is always right, Google is this pure innocent company, has never done any wrong doing, oh poor company, trying to survive in this world of BIG EEEEEVIIILL Microsoft. Please.

You're not trying to "push the conversation forward". Pushing it forward would be discussing things such as the legal ramifications of these actions. What damage could this cause to the market? You know, things which are actually related to Microsoft showing warnings when trying to install third party browser.

You're trying to push the conversation away from the actual news, and instead change the topic to how good Edge could be, and what Microsoft should do to make it good. This thread isn't about how good or bad Edge is. In fact, I'd say this thread isn't about Edge at all. It's about Windows and how it makes it difficult to install some software on purpose.

 

Also, stop with the strawman arguments. I think Google is a shitty company in many aspects too.

But I don't care which company did something when evaluating if the actions are good or bad. If this was Google doing it on Android then I would have been just as upset, and if I had to guess my bet is that you would have been far more upset at Google than you are at Microsoft right now.

A shitty action is a shitty action, regardless of which company is behind it.

 

Now stop trying to derail the thread and start discussing the implications of Microsoft's decision to scare people into using Edge, by hijacking the installation process.

[Sniperfox47]

39 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

What derailment? We are still talking about the same topic. It is called pushing the conversation forward. Now, look who is derailing? Do you want to talk on that?

Or how about LAwLz is always right, Google is this pure innocent company, has never done any wrong doing, oh poor company, trying to survive in this world of BIG EEEEEVIIILL Microsoft. Please.

You're confusing @LAwLz with me. I'm the Google fanboy here. And if Google did this on Android even I'd be calling them out for it. This crosses *way* more lines than anything that Google's done with promoting Chrome. Not only is it *far* more intrusive, intentionally blocking actions the user is trying to accomplish, but it also intentionally misleads users directing them away from products they're seeking to use.

 

If you really want to compare it to Google, this would the the equivalent of doing a Google search for Facebook, having Google hide Facebook in the search results unless you disable a setting burried in it's advanced settings page, and then place a full-page ad over your search results telling you to go try Google+ instead because unlike competitors it has tons of people and makes it easy to share content with friends and family...