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Jtalk4456

Apple's claiming their headquarters is worth only $200

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Just now, potoooooooo said:

They do. This is a standard negotiating tactic.

Unfounded claim with no evidence, seems about right for an apple damage control thread

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2 hours ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Their fuckup was picking a dollar figure so absurdly low that it would never stand or even be considered remotely reasonable in any court.

 

And surely there has to be a criminal penalty for providing false information on government forms?  Once again they picked a number so low that they're exposing themselves here too where they can't claim "we just used a different accounting method!"

I think a case can be throw out on such grounds. At least that is how civil cases are so I am unsure if the same can be done with this type of case. 

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1 hour ago, Swatson said:

Oh yea I'm sure Google lists their property values in the hundreds of dollars

That's why I don't give a solid yes, but leave it as "other companies" because I'm not sure if Google is one of the said companies who pull crap like this.  Well, to be fair, Google is one of the companies caught tax evading in Ireland, but I don't think they listed their property value at 200.


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29 minutes ago, Swatson said:

Unfounded claim with no evidence, seems about right for an apple damage control thread

Ahem.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Want-a-lower-tax-bill-So-do-Apple-and-Genentech-13148121.php?utm_campaign=thirdparty&utm_source=article&utm_medium=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Ftechnology%2Fbusinessinsider%2Farticle%2FApple-is-reportedly-arguing-that-buildings-at-its-13154475.php

 

"In the Bay Area, Genentech and Apple are particularly aggressive in opposing tax assessors..."

 

"Genentech, the biotech giant best known for making blockbuster cancer drugs, has been embroiled in an 18-year battle with San Mateo County over the value of hundreds of pieces of equipment and machinery and dozens of parcels of land in its sprawling South San Francisco headquarters. "


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3 hours ago, peanuts104 said:

Business taxes != Property taxes.  They were dodging business taxes in Europe.  I'm not saying that wasn't shady either, it was.  But protesting property taxes in the US is normal. 

They didn't even dodge taxes in the EU though, the Irish Government made a deal with apple to get their headquarters in their country.  The EU didn't like it.  According to EU law a an EU country isn't allowed to wave corporate taxes in favor of more business.  


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2 minutes ago, peanuts104 said:

Ahem.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Want-a-lower-tax-bill-So-do-Apple-and-Genentech-13148121.php?utm_campaign=thirdparty&utm_source=article&utm_medium=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Ftechnology%2Fbusinessinsider%2Farticle%2FApple-is-reportedly-arguing-that-buildings-at-its-13154475.php

 

"In the Bay Area, Genentech and Apple are particularly aggressive in opposing tax assessors..."

 

"Genentech, the biotech giant best known for making blockbuster cancer drugs, has been embroiled in an 18-year battle with San Mateo County over the value of hundreds of pieces of equipment and machinery and dozens of parcels of land in its sprawling South San Francisco headquarters. "

You see guys. This other company is doing the same horrible things as apple. That makes it less bad right? Oh wait that's not how that works. One does not excuse the other. I do understand fight the evaluation of a property if you think it's too high but 200 dollars is just stupid. Either come up with a reasonable number or get out. 

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7 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

You see guys. This other company is doing the same horrible things as apple. That makes it less bad right? Oh wait that's not how that works. One does not excuse the other. I do understand fight the evaluation of a property if you think it's too high but 200 dollars is just stupid. Either come up with a reasonable number or get out. 

I agree the number is stupid but fighting property taxes isnt, and considering all the other business taxes and astronomical land values companies in California have to deal with, this is the result. 

 

While Apple is obviously profitable and could likely absorb the full tax hit without blinking, smaller companies with tighter margins sometimes need this tactic in order to keep the lights on especially in tax heavy states like California.  And sometimes the assessors get it wrong.  The counties like money too, and they can be known to artificially push values up for increased revenue, although that depends on the temperment of that particular jursdiction.


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15 minutes ago, peanuts104 said:

Ahem.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Want-a-lower-tax-bill-So-do-Apple-and-Genentech-13148121.php?utm_campaign=thirdparty&utm_source=article&utm_medium=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfgate.com%2Ftechnology%2Fbusinessinsider%2Farticle%2FApple-is-reportedly-arguing-that-buildings-at-its-13154475.php

 

"In the Bay Area, Genentech and Apple are particularly aggressive in opposing tax assessors..."

 

"Genentech, the biotech giant best known for making blockbuster cancer drugs, has been embroiled in an 18-year battle with San Mateo County over the value of hundreds of pieces of equipment and machinery and dozens of parcels of land in its sprawling South San Francisco headquarters. "

So not Google, also don't see any valuation as crazy as $200

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2 minutes ago, Swatson said:

So not Google, also don't see any valuation as crazy as $200

Did you even read the article?

 

"

In Santa Clara County, more than half of the $76 billion in disputed assessments stems from property belonging to 10 large tech companies, including Apple, Google, Applied Materials and Sun Microsystems.

 

"Applied Materials, for instance, has 94 appeals totaling $6.1 billion in disputed value. Google has 132 appeals covering $2.7 billion in disputed value."


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Just now, peanuts104 said:

Did you even read the article?

 

"

In Santa Clara County, more than half of the $76 billion in disputed assessments stems from property belonging to 10 large tech companies, including Apple, Google, Applied Materials and Sun Microsystems.

 

"Applied Materials, for instance, has 94 appeals totaling $6.1 billion in disputed value. Google has 132 appeals covering $2.7 billion in disputed value."

Right but the claim was that Google is using this tactic, namely MASSIVELY and purposefully undervaluing property. Disputing assessments is not the same thing

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5 minutes ago, Swatson said:

Right but the claim was that Google is using this tactic, namely MASSIVELY and purposefully undervaluing property. Disputing assessments is not the same thing

Apple isn't determining the assessment though.  They submitted an opinion as an obvious negotiation tactic.  Apple is disputing $8.5 billion in total and Google is disputing $2.7 billion in total.  However, Google has 1/4 the amount of apppeals as Apple, 489 versus 132.  When you break it out, apple averages aprox $17 mil per appeal versus Google's higher $20 mil per appeal.  Google is doing the same damn thing.

Edited by peanuts104
Got my millions and millions mixed, fixed the numbers

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2 minutes ago, peanuts104 said:

Apple isn't determining the assessment though.  They submitted an opinion as an obvious negotiation tactic.  Apple is disputing $8.5 million in total and Google is disputing $2.7 billion in total.  However, Google has 1/4 the amount of apppeals as Apple, 489 versus 132.  When you break it out, apple averages aprox $17k per appeal versus Google's higher $20k per appeal.  Google is doing the same damn thing.

Google is not submitting valuations of $200 on multimillion dollar properties, they aren't the same thing. It's completely fine to dispute property taxes, it's not fine to say your HQ (or former HQ) is worth $200.

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14 minutes ago, Swatson said:

Google is not submitting valuations of $200 on multimillion dollar properties, they aren't the same thing. It's completely fine to dispute property taxes, it's not fine to say your HQ (or former HQ) is worth $200.

The only way you're going to have an average disputed value of $20 million per property is if you are doing exactly that, because I'm sure if you look at the average assessment for all 132 of those properties, it would be about $20 million. And no I'm not going to look through all 132 properties.  That seems like it would be a somewhat reasonable average number for an office building assessment in California.    And it's not just Apple or Google, it's all the tech companies most of the tech companies, though apparently Facebook has 0 appeals according to the article.  It is nonetheless a widely used practice.  


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2 hours ago, Swatson said:

Right but the claim was that Google is using this tactic, namely MASSIVELY and purposefully undervaluing property. Disputing assessments is not the same thing

That's literally exactly what apple is doing. The property was given a value, they disputed the value, claiming it was actually 200 dollars.

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1 minute ago, potoooooooo said:

That's literally exactly what apple is doing. The property was given a value, they disputed the value, claiming it was actually 200 dollars.

Stop being obtuse. I obviously meant the process of normally disputing a property value. Intentionally lying (YES LYING) about property value is not the same as just disputing it. And dont try to say they aren't lying. No one, LITERALLY NO ONE would actually value that property at $200

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2 hours ago, peanuts104 said:

The only way you're going to have an average disputed value of $20 million per property is if you are doing exactly that, because I'm sure if you look at the average assessment for all 132 of those properties, it would be about $20 million. And no I'm not going to look through all 132 properties.  That seems like it would be a somewhat reasonable average number for an office building assessment in California.    And it's not just Apple or Google, it's all the tech companies most of the tech companies, though apparently Facebook has 0 appeals according to the article.  It is nonetheless a widely used practice.  

Or maybe they think the property is just worth 20 million less on average? You realize most of these large high tech buildings plus land value are in the hundreds of millions in value right?

 

I should point out that averages are also a terrible way to look at this. If they think the googleplex which is almost certainly worth BILLIONS, was valued like 100 million too high, that's 5 buildings worth of 20 million "average" valuation difference

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21 minutes ago, Swatson said:

Stop being obtuse. I obviously meant the process of normally disputing a property value. Intentionally lying (YES LYING) about property value is not the same as just disputing it. And dont try to say they aren't lying. No one, LITERALLY NO ONE would actually value that property at $200

I don't know, there are some people that wouldn't take it. Even if they were paid.

 

just poking a bit lol.

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35 minutes ago, Swatson said:

Stop being obtuse. I obviously meant the process of normally disputing a property value. Intentionally lying (YES LYING) about property value is not the same as just disputing it. And dont try to say they aren't lying. No one, LITERALLY NO ONE would actually value that property at $200

Literally the entire point is to lowball so that the government forced to respond with a better value. If they don't respond, then the tax value becomes 200 dollars. That's the point.

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12 minutes ago, potoooooooo said:

Literally the entire point is to lowball so that the government forced to respond with a better value. If they don't respond, then the tax value becomes 200 dollars. That's the point.

No the point of disputing property taxes is not "blatantly lie so you can pay tax on a value of $200 because your paperwork got lost in the bureaucracy." The mental gymnastics on show in this thread is astounding, I'm out!

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13 hours ago, YedZed said:

You can't even buy a decent iPhone with $200 xD 

I sold my iPhone 6 64GB with a replacement battery for $225 NZD. 

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4 hours ago, Swatson said:

No the point of disputing property taxes is not "blatantly lie so you can pay tax on a value of $200 because your paperwork got lost in the bureaucracy." The mental gymnastics on show in this thread is astounding, I'm out!

????  not sure you understand how bureaucracy works.      It's not lying, it's haggling.  Not sure why you think there is any mental gymnastics going on it's pretty straight forward. 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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1 minute ago, mr moose said:

????  not sure you understand how bureaucracy works.      It's not lying, it's haggling.  Not sure why you think there is any mental gymnastics going on it's pretty straight forward. 

not sure you understand the definition of lying

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