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Jtalk4456

Apple's claiming their headquarters is worth only $200

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3 minutes ago, peanuts104 said:

They probably wouldn't want to give them a number because they just want the lowest number they can get.

That's called tax evasion, if I claimed I only made $200 last financial year instead of $70k the tax office would be on my ass.

 

Who in their right mind in any kind of capacity would accept that building is worth $200? There is no need for a placeholder when valuations exist. You don't run a trillion dollar company and not know what your HQ is worth


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Just now, Arika S said:

That's called tax evasion, if I claimed I only made $200 last financial year instead of $70k the tax office would be on my ass.

 

Who in their right mind in any kind of capacity would accept that building is worth $200? There is no need for a placeholder when valuations exist. You don't run a trillion dollar company and not know what your HQ is worth

No, it's called protesting your taxes.  The tax office may require that you input what you think the assessment should be.  You wouldn't put in what you think it's worth because you don't know what the county will accept as a more reasonable assessment.  Therefore you put in an absurdly low value that obviously isn't correct to start the negotiation process.  If Apple paid the county whatever percentage of $200 and said we're all Gucci, then yes, that would be fraud.  Right now they're protesting their taxes, just like you can do if you own real property.  

 

Also, it's not the same as federal or state income tax.  Property taxes are handled by much smaller jurisdictions, in this case Santa Cruz County.


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3 minutes ago, peanuts104 said:

No, it's called protesting your taxes.  The tax office may require that you input what you think the assessment should be.  You wouldn't put in what you think it's worth because you don't know what the county will accept as a more reasonable assessment.  Therefore you put in an absurdly low value that obviously isn't correct to start the negotiation process.  If Apple paid the county whatever percentage of $200 and said we're all Gucci, then yes, that would be fraud.  Right now they're protesting their taxes, just like you can do if you own real property.  

 

Also, it's not the same as federal or state income tax.  Property taxes are handled by much smaller jurisdictions, in this case Santa Cruz County.

Given that apple have been dodging taxes for years, I don't accept this argument, being the company the are, they have to know what their assets are worth (otherwise they can't claim they are worth a trillion dollars) this includes any property, and again, with them being apple the county will also know what it's worth since property valuations are a thing and the county will be trying to get the taxes owed to them. But they will fight tooth and nail to pay as little as possible, because apple has a massive aversion to paying out.

 

So the county knows what it's worth, apple will say it's only "$200" and so they will "negotiate" a compromise that is well below it's actual value meaning the county will not be paid what they are owed, but they will feel like it's a win (though it a actually isnt) or they will refuse to negotiate with Apple who will then threaten to up and leave leaving the county no choice but to accept a lower figure or risk losing the company completely


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13 minutes ago, peanuts104 said:

No, it's called protesting your taxes.  The tax office may require that you input what you think the assessment should be.  You wouldn't put in what you think it's worth because you don't know what the county will accept as a more reasonable assessment.  Therefore you put in an absurdly low value that obviously isn't correct to start the negotiation process.  If Apple paid the county whatever percentage of $200 and said we're all Gucci, then yes, that would be fraud.  Right now they're protesting their taxes, just like you can do if you own real property.  

 

Also, it's not the same as federal or state income tax.  Property taxes are handled by much smaller jurisdictions, in this case Santa Cruz County.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/30/eu-apple-ireland-tax-ruling-q-and-a Ya, they're totally protesting...

 

 

2 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Given that apple have been dodging taxes for years, I don't accept this argument, being the company the are, they have to know what their assets are worth (otherwise they can't claim they are worth a trillion dollars) this includes any property, and again, with them being apple the county will also know what it's worth since property valuations are a thing and the county will be trying to get the taxes owed to them. But they will fight tooth and nail to pay as little as possible, because apple has a massive aversion to paying out.

 

So the county knows what it's worth, apple will say it's only "$200" and so they will "negotiate" a compromise that is well below it's actual value meaning the county will not be paid what they are owed, but they will feel like it's a win (though it a actually isnt) or they will refuse to negotiate with Apple who will then threaten to up and leave leaving the county no choice but to accept a lower figure or risk losing the company completely

As I mentioned above they're far from protesting as they're claiming.  They tax evade in every country they have a footprint in, and the EU already forced them to pay Ireland back.


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20 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Given that apple have been dodging taxes for years, I don't accept this argument, being the company the are, they have to know what their assets are worth (otherwise they can't claim they are worth a trillion dollars) this includes any property, and again, with them being apple the county will also know what it's worth since property valuations are a thing and the county will be trying to get the taxes owed to them. But they will fight tooth and nail to pay as little as possible, because apple has a massive aversion to paying out.

 

So the county knows what it's worth, apple will say it's only "$200" and so they will "negotiate" a compromise that is well below it's actual value meaning the county will not be paid what they are owed, but they will feel like it's a win (though it a actually isnt) or they will refuse to negotiate with Apple who will then threaten to up and leave leaving the county no choice but to accept a lower figure or risk losing the company completely

You can call it what you want, but most companies protest their real estate taxes.  I'm not an apple fanboy in any way.  They know what they paid for it (approx $5 billion).  They county assessed it at approx $1 billion, so they obviously aren't basing it on what it cost apple to build it.   

 

My main point is that it's perfectly normal to protest your property tax assessment, at least in the US.  Most companies are going to fight tooth and nail to pay as little as possible.  Hell if I owned a home I would be in the tax office every year trying to talk them down.

 

Also, that's the thing about property taxes, they can't just move their building.  The county obviously wouldn't want them to leave but if they did, the new owners would have to pay property taxes, so the county wouldn't really lose anything.  Besides, Apple just built the thing.  Threatening to leave really wouldn't give them as much leverage as you would think.


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8 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/30/eu-apple-ireland-tax-ruling-q-and-a Ya, they're totally protesting...

 

 

As I mentioned above they're far from protesting as they're claiming.  They tax evade in every country they have a footprint in, and the EU already forced them to pay Ireland back.

Business taxes != Property taxes.  They were dodging business taxes in Europe.  I'm not saying that wasn't shady either, it was.  But protesting property taxes in the US is normal. 


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1 minute ago, peanuts104 said:

Business taxes != Property taxes.  They were dodging business taxes in Europe.  I'm not saying that wasn't shady either, it was.  But protesting property taxes in the US is normal. 

My point is that a company known for tax evasion isn't going to get credit for protesting when they do evasion all the time.  It's really not looking good for them.


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1 hour ago, asus killer said:

i raise you some venezuelan bolivars, i stopped counting, it's the money for today's breakfast.

 

2017-10-22-petrobolivar-78494.jpg

I raise you my stack of monopoly money, a jar of mayonnaise, a squirrel, and I'll thrown in a slice of pizza ?

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Their fuckup was picking a dollar figure so absurdly low that it would never stand or even be considered remotely reasonable in any court.

 

And surely there has to be a criminal penalty for providing false information on government forms?  Once again they picked a number so low that they're exposing themselves here too where they can't claim "we just used a different accounting method!"


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2 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Their fuckup was picking a dollar figure so absurdly low that it would never stand or even be considered remotely reasonable in any court.

 

And surely there has to be a criminal penalty for providing false information on government forms?  Once again they picked a number so low that they're exposing themselves here too where they can't claim "we just used a different accounting method!"

It's called fraud and tax evasion, which you can go to federal prison for plus be fined out the ass over.


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21 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Their fuckup was picking a dollar figure so absurdly low that it would never stand or even be considered remotely reasonable in any court.

 

And surely there has to be a criminal penalty for providing false information on government forms?  Once again they picked a number so low that they're exposing themselves here too where they can't claim "we just used a different accounting method!"

That's not really how it works.  They aren't picking the assessment value.  They are giving their own opinion of what its assessed at.  They aren't dictating to Santa Cruz County that is what the assessment is.   Apple would have to prove $200 is a reasonable assessment, which it isn't.  Santa Cruz County may decide, however, that their original assessment was too high and bring it down some after they go through the appeal process. 

 

Also I should have been more clear, but my placeholder thing is a theory and I am unfamiliar with California specifically. I do have a good working knowledge of how real estate tax assessments are generally handled in the US, however the bureaucracy behind it is a little fuzzier for me.


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2 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Let’s assume for a moment that Tim Cook, Apples tax department and income managers were all in on this and thought it would fly.......

That would be incredibly stupid. You don’t build the worlds most valuable company in the world and then squander it by committing tax fraud after you just hit $1 Trillion.....

 

Now lets also assume for a moment that there might be a disgruntled employee, a error when filing their paperwork, or corporate espionage.....

Now between those two hypothetical scenarios, which one do you think makes more sense?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Or they figured out that keeping their tax litigations in court is cheaper than actially just paying taxes. In that case the blame is on Congress and the House for letting BS like that stand. 

 

Apple essentially has internal security and investigators, so once we get an official statement those people will have probably already been dispatched if the later case is true rather than the former. 

its not tax fraud if they dispute the 1 billion price that was what the county says its worth. Anyone can dispute there house or buisness building value to there county thats not illegal. Though the Price there arguing is dumb AF im sure there paying a ton to Argue there point of why. 

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isn't the problem that it's Apple deciding how much the building is worth? in my country the tax authority is the one deciding that, you may not agree and contest but you'd probably just get a no, we're right, pay up.

Taxes in the US seem to work very poorly.


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39 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

It's called fraud and tax evasion, which you can go to federal prison for plus be fined out the ass over.

 

42 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Their fuckup was picking a dollar figure so absurdly low that it would never stand or even be considered remotely reasonable in any court.

 

And surely there has to be a criminal penalty for providing false information on government forms?  Once again they picked a number so low that they're exposing themselves here too where they can't claim "we just used a different accounting method!"

 it is not tax evasion and its not fraud . They were given a valuation of the building at a dollar amount and they dispute that dollar amount and argue what they think its worth.

 

its not the same as you filing your taxes this year and putting you made 30k income but Really made 120k and submited this to the government as a true statement. there's not arguement here you made 120k. The value of something can be argued though.  you can Argue the value of your house also with your own county 

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3 minutes ago, michaelocarroll007 said:

 

 it is not tax evasion and its not fraud . They were given a valuation of the building at a dollar amount and they dispute that dollar amount and argue what they think its worth.

 

its not the same as you filing your taxes this year and putting you made 30k income but Really made 120k and submited this to the government as a true statement. there's not arguement here you made 120k. The value of something can be argued though.  you can Argue the value of your house also with your own county 

Even so, there is no fucking way that place is worth 200 bucks.


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2 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

In pure numbers 35% of $1 is not much....but 35% of a million dollars is a lot more both numerically and perceptually, especially when you are a corporation with overhead and a payroll. 

 

 

Yeah but if you only have a dollar and 35% is taken away you are hurting while if you are making billions 35% isn't going to hurt you much. Also I was under the impression that companies were taxed on profit so they can deduct all those overhead cost from their taxes. 

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It feels like we're repeating a familiar LTT forum pattern:

 

1. See something vaguely outrageous-sounding about Apple

2. Gripe about Apple with a fundamental misunderstanding of what it's actually doing

3. Swear never to use Apple products based on this misunderstanding

4. Embrace a rival doing virtually the same thing as Apple

 

This isn't to let Apple off the hook, but for goodness' sake, people, it's not actually evading taxes unless it tries to pay that amount.  It's a negotiating tactic.  Cynical and likely to give the city less in taxes than it might have hoped for?  You bet.  Illegal?  No.

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4 minutes ago, Commodus said:

4. Embrace a rival doing virtually the same thing as Apple

 

Oh yea I'm sure Google lists their property values in the hundreds of dollars

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5 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

I didn't need this situation to decide that, Apple convinced me long ago not to use their products (for reasons too extensive to go into).

Oh, I know some people have sincere reasons not to use Apple gear.  This is more for the people who gripe about, say, the harsh working conditions at Foxconn's iPhone factories only to buy a Samsung phone made in the same conditions, a Dell PC made in the same conditions... you get the idea.  It's this Only Apple Does Bad Things myth that people cling to when trying to justify what's ultimately an irrational hatred for Apple.

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3 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Oh didn’t think of that. Solid strat. Congress and the House should do something about it. 

 

Until then though.....? It’s legal. 

Solid start indeed.

 

Honestly tho, America should be ashamed of their system for having this kinda holes in their laws.

I mean, seriously. 200$? How can a system be dumb enough to allow directly lying in your face, so obviously?

If they claimed 500million when in reality it was 550million. Fine. There could be arguments and fluctuations which would be determined by a court.

 

But 200 bucks?

They would just be fined a flat 5 billion for lying in the EU, before being asked again for a better estimate.

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19 minutes ago, Arkheias said:

Someone should push for that land to be seized under eminent domain for the $200 that it's apparently worth.

Funnily enough that wouldn't work.  Even if they decide it's worth $200 an independent appraiser would have to appraise as a neutral third party between the owner and the government.


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3 hours ago, Arika S said:

That's called tax evasion, if I claimed I only made $200 last financial year instead of $70k the tax office would be on my ass.

 

Who in their right mind in any kind of capacity would accept that building is worth $200? There is no need for a placeholder when valuations exist. You don't run a trillion dollar company and not know what your HQ is worth

Except this is just an application. They're not filing the value as 200 dollars, they're filing an application and that's their initial valuation. The town will come back with the actual valuation and apple will be forced to accept. If the town doesn't come back with an actual valuation then 200 dollars will be the tax value. That's why they do this.

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