thermal throttling More details about the throttling issues of the 15" core i9 MacBook Pro, this time with Final Cut Pro X

[RotoCoreOne]

2 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

The U series i5 and i7 are only separated by cache and clock speeds so there you go. This proposition has existed for years.

 

And I can only repeat myself again. The low power models suffer the same. So what's the common denominator? 

The whole CFL mobile lineup is plagued by power issues. That's why. It's false packaging. That's not desperation. It's reality. If Apple was the only one with issues I wouldn't even mention it but we see pretty much every vendor have issues to some degree. But people have tunnel vision so it gets turned into "hur dur Apple" which is usually universally true but there's more to it this time. Apple still have their shenanigans but when you have to avoid all but the bottom tier SKU in each lineup to avoid problems then there's an issue. I'd also call it an issue if vendors suddenly need to redesign all their products. Not an unfixable issue but I'm not convinced Intel's partners would be particularly happy having to spend even more money just to do their yearly refresh. There's a reason laptops (or any other product for that matter) don't get redesigned every year. 

But other vendors don't mark up their pricing to ludicrous levels

So for that mark up, I expect a quality product that was tested before release

So unless apple did absolutely no testing, they made the decision to utilize coffee lake in their new macbooks regardless of it thermal throttling or not.

[Trixanity]

23 minutes ago, RotoCoreOne said:

But other vendors don't mark up their pricing to ludicrous levels

So for that mark up, I expect a quality product that was tested before release

So unless apple did absolutely no testing, they made the decision to utilize coffee lake in their new macbooks regardless of it thermal throttling or not.

Certainly. Apple is the most egregious example to the nth degree.

 

The situation is much more complicated than that though. It isn't even just about Apple or Intel when it comes to product launches. People have been wanting the MacBooks refreshed for a while and Apple finally did so and delivered a poor product. They didn't have any alternative except going AMD which would have been an interesting turn of events but really unlikely. Their lineup doesn't quite fit their ecosystem anyway. Either way: a bad product that could be kinda fixed with software but need a hardware fix to really eliminate the issue at no cost to any potential performance.

 

Apple has the biggest profit margins I'm sure but let's not pretend you can't find Apple competitors squeezing their customers similarly. Although I must say Apple went off the rails with this new lineup. Not only do they suck but they cost a lot more than the previous models. Essentially paying more for less performance. But at least the keyboard won't break this time.

[RotoCoreOne]

10 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

Certainly. Apple is the most egregious example to the nth degree.

 

The situation is much more complicated than that though. It isn't even just about Apple or Intel when it comes to product launches. People have been wanting the MacBooks refreshed for a while and Apple finally did so and delivered a poor product. They didn't have any alternative except going AMD which would have been an interesting turn of events but really unlikely. Their lineup doesn't quite fit their ecosystem anyway. Either way: a bad product that could be kinda fixed with software but need a hardware fix to really eliminate the issue at no cost to any potential performance.

 

Apple has the biggest profit margins I'm sure but let's not pretend you can't find Apple competitors squeezing their customers similarly. Although I must say Apple went off the rails with this new lineup. Not only do they suck but they cost a lot more than the previous models. Essentially paying more for less performance. But at least the keyboard won't break this time.

It's a shame too. I prefer macOS for notebooks (trackpad and gestures). Unfortunately, I haven't heard of AMD cpus supporting thunderbolt yet. If they did, I wonder if Apple would switch over to ryzen.

[AnonymousGuy]

1 hour ago, DrMacintosh said:

btw here is a more in depth video

 Its actually not that bad, and the MacBook can actually perform a little better, the fan curve just doesn't let it.  

What the fuck?  There's no way it's thermal throttling after 5 seconds of running Cinebench, even if the cooling solution is massively undersized it takes a little while to reach heat saturation.  @3:33 in the video.  I'm going to guess now that this guy is making shit up, especially since CB isn't power virus program like say P95.

 

He also seems to not understand that "it's rated to" means turbo boost, which Cinebench is not a single threaded application.  

[Drak3]

2 hours ago, Arika S said:

You seem real desperate to hate on Intel for this, for some current unknown reason.

 

So let's change the scenario a bit.

A car manufacturer produces this brand new supercar looks amazing and is capable of going 250km/h. However they decided to grow on some tires that were designed for sedans that are only rated to go 130 km/h anything above this and they would rip apart. So to prevent this the manufacturer imposed a system that when the car is reaching 130km/h they restrict the amount of power coming from the engine so the tires don't destroy themselves.

 

So who do you blame? The manufacturer for choosing absolutely dumb tires that can keep up with the engine? Or the tire manufacturer for creating tires that can not go over 130km/h despite never being designed to go on a supercar?

I blame the Mexicans.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kappa.

[mrthuvi]

Lmao, get a free performance upgrade for your i9 macbook pro now by disabling 2 out of 6 cores. You just can't make this stuff up.

[DrMacintosh]

13 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Using external storage with OSX is a pain in the ass

? What is difficult about it?

[DrMacintosh]

3 hours ago, NowakVulpix said:

Can't wait until Apple damage controls this by claiming that only a "small percentage" of Core i9 MBPs thermal throttle when literally every Core i9 MBP thermal throttles and then proceed to do nothing about it, like they have with a number of other issues that Mac owners have run into.

Why would they do anything about it? Had any OEM done anything about their laptops overheating? 

[Nowak]

2 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Why would they do anything about it? Had any OEM done anything about their laptops overheating? 

No, but I'm making a joke about how Apple told iPhone 4 owners that they were "holding their phone wrong"

[DrMacintosh]

2 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

No, but I'm making a joke about how Apple told iPhone 4 owners that they were "holding their phone wrong"

They were holding it wrong. Phone antennas then all the had similar signal issues. I think Cnet did some testing comparing leading phones of the time. It was an industry wide issue.

 

But anyway, thats off topic. 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

We and people who were interested in this machine do.

 

Simply put, there's no reason to sell a machine with a super high-end CPU that not only performs worse than its base model counterpart but also its predecessor simply because the cooling system is unable to keep the machine cool enough to maintain base clocks, let alone turbo.

 

You're paying $300 extra for what's basically a performance downgrade in heavy tasks.

 

You can't defend Apple from this in any way or form.

If they make money from it (and people obviously buy it) why shouldn't they sell it? Apple is business orientated - if they can make money, they will. Not saying its a good enough product but, if you can jump up the price by $500 and people will pay that, then why not. 

[captain_to_fire]

13 minutes ago, mrthuvi said:

Lmao, get a free performance upgrade for your i9 macbook pro now by disabling 2 out of 6 cores. You just can't make this stuff up.

Well the performance benefits of disabling two out of the six cores using XCode is rather measly 

 

3 hours ago, NowakVulpix said:

Can't wait until Apple damage controls this by claiming that only a "small percentage" of Core i9 MBPs thermal throttle when literally every Core i9 MBP thermal throttles and then proceed to do nothing about it, like they have with a number of other issues that Mac owners have run into.

They do it all the time way back when Steve Jobs is still alive. The one I remember the most is with the 2010 Antennagate issue when Steve Jobs downplayed the issue by replying to an email saying you're holding it wrong. Then there's the bendgate in 2014, touch disease for the iPhone 6/6+, performance and thermal differences of the TSMC vs Samsung made A9 chip, then shitty iOS 11 and so on. The only time Apple did "man-up" is in 2012 when Tim Cook publicly acknowledge the shitty iOS 6 Maps and fired Scott Forstall.

6 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

They were holding it wrong. Phone antennas then all the had similar signal issues. I think Cnet did some testing comparing leading phones of the time. It was an industry wide issue.

 

But anyway, thats off topic. 

Apple silently acknowledged the antennagate with the mid season refresh (Feb 2011) of the Verizon iPhone 4. The weak spot was relocated at the top so iPhone 4 for Verizon Wireless which does better voice calls than the AT&T iPhone. It is also this time that AT&T's network was hammered and everyone was begging Jobs to bring the iPhone 4 to Verizon.

[Belgarathian]

14 hours ago, captain_to_fire said:

0.61" MacBook Pro + core i9 (6c/12t) + mediocre cooling = yes it will thermal throttle

Yeah, but it shouldn't be expected. 

[captain_to_fire]

2 minutes ago, Belgarathian said:

Yeah, but it shouldn't be expected. 

Well the iPhone X (7.7 mm) was slightly thicker than the 8 Plus (7.5 mm) and nobody seemed to care or even get bothered so I'm pretty sure actual pros will not care if Apple makes the 15" MBP 3/4"/1.9 cm thick as long as proper cooling is in place.

 

*one small rant. I hope Apple and other tech companies stop bastardizing the imperial system of measurement by using decimals. 0.75" should be 3/4". If the imperial system is just too much of an inconvenience, then use metric system that is base 10.

[schwellmo92]

4 hours ago, RotoCoreOne said:

It's a shame too. I prefer macOS for notebooks (trackpad and gestures). Unfortunately, I haven't heard of AMD cpus supporting thunderbolt yet. If they did, I wonder if Apple would switch over to ryzen.

AFAIK there are some (?one?) AMD motherboard(s) that support TB3.

[D13H4RD]

2 hours ago, RorzNZ said:

If they make money from it (and people obviously buy it) why shouldn't they sell it? Apple is business orientated - if they can make money, they will. Not saying its a good enough product but, if you can jump up the price by $500 and people will pay that, then why not. 

I just don’t think it’s all that worth it, to be frank.

 

If you’re getting worse performance and only a tiny bit better performance in the absolute best case scenario, then I don’t think people should buy it. They’d probably be better off with the 8850H and putting that $400 to something else.

 

NotebookCheck already came out to say that many 8950HK laptops have the same issue, so the 8750H/8850H is the better buy. I wouldn’t be surprised to see 8950HK models have their production rates slowed down.

[FPSwithaWacomTablet]

This is a chip you put in a Sager laptop... NOT a Macbook.

 

Not unless you really want to make planned obsolesence a thing.

[D13H4RD]

4 minutes ago, FPSwithaWacomTablet said:

This is a chip you put in a Sager laptop... NOT a Macbook.

 

Not unless you really want to make planned obsolesence a thing.

Well, you also just can’t just slap it into a Sager. The cooling solution itself has to be upgraded.

 

The Alienware 15 R4 for instance, thermal throttles very badly to the point of 8750H performance or less.

[FPSwithaWacomTablet]

15 minutes ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

Well, you also just can’t just slap it into a Sager. The cooling solution itself has to be upgraded.

 

The Alienware 15 R4 for instance, thermal throttles very badly to the point of 8750H performance or less.

To be fair, they ARE known for slapping desktop-grade components into laptops. Of which are supplied with 300W adapters. Remember dual 1080 + 6700K ?

[D13H4RD]

2 minutes ago, FPSwithaWacomTablet said:

To be fair, they ARE known for slapping desktop-grade components into laptops. Of which are supplied with 300W adapters. Remember dual 1080 + 6700K ?

They have gone extreme 

 

But in this specific case, I think the 8750H is probably the more logical choice 

[JoostinOnline]

16 hours ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

I wonder if they realize that the CPU can consume up to 150W of power (though it will rarely go that high) at that 4.8GHz speed?

Where are you getting that number?  I doubt it's anywhere near that high.

[D13H4RD]

7 minutes ago, JoostinOnline said:

Where are you getting that number?  I doubt it's anywhere near that high.

I remember it was on an MSI image. 

 

Though it's at very high turbo speeds. At 3.8GHz, one mentioned that it had to dissipate 105W of heat 

[D13H4RD]

Here's something. 

 

As it turned out, for CFL, the TDP definition is now pretty much literal. Where past CPUs maintained TDP even within boost clocks, the CFL chips exceed that TDP past base. 

 

Quote

 

 

[JoostinOnline]

2 minutes ago, D13H4RD2L1V3 said:

I remember it was on an MSI image. 

 

Though it's at very high turbo speeds. At 3.8GHz, one mentioned that it had to dissipate 105W of heat 

You need more than "I saw an MSI image once" to make a claim that big.  There is no way any modern mobile CPU is taking up 150W of power. If that number is correct, then it probably had a 1070 in it or something.

[Brooksie359]

5 hours ago, AnonymousGuy said:

What the fuck?  There's no way it's thermal throttling after 5 seconds of running Cinebench, even if the cooling solution is massively undersized it takes a little while to reach heat saturation.  @3:33 in the video.  I'm going to guess now that this guy is making shit up, especially since CB isn't power virus program like say P95.

 

He also seems to not understand that "it's rated to" means turbo boost, which Cinebench is not a single threaded application.  

As someone who has used cinebench as a preliminary overclock stability test I would have to disagree. The heat spikes up real fast so it thermal throttling is actually suspected. I actually see my temps go up faster using cinebench than in prime95 so I really have no idea how you would think that.