[Update] Google to be fined 5 billion dollars by the EU for breaching Antitrust laws

[Trixanity]

1 hour ago, Noctus said:

 

But can't that be countered with the fact apple won't provide for the lower end market that make up the grand portion of that 74%? That and my previous point of "you CAN change the search and browser options"... Basically the same as windows' Bing and Explorer, no?

You can change the browser, sure, but Samsung can't fork Android without basically killing their entire Galaxy lineup. That's why they're pushing Tizen in other products.

 

Also, you could also change the browser on Windows for decades but bundling software is the difference. To access Google services you need to comply. Compliance results in a chain reaction of benefits to Google: everyone uses chrome, Google search, AdSense and so on. They basically lock you in even if you could technically leave the room at any time. If you don't bundle Google's products you can't have play services and store. If you do bundle them they become the default more often than not because people don't like changes.

 

What Apple does or doesn't do is not relevant. It'd be like if VW is the dominant car manufacturer and gets fined but Ferrari does not but their practices are the same and Ferrari could just make affordable cars to gain market share. Ferrari would not get punished for not trying to compete on market share. It's not really an argument. The outcome is the same but circumstances are different. Another more morbid comparison would be murder vs manslaughter: there is a dead body in both cases but the sentences are quite different.

[Noctus]

11 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

You can change the browser, sure, but Samsung can't fork Android without basically killing their entire Galaxy lineup. That's why they're pushing Tizen in other products.

 

Also, you could also change the browser on Windows for decades but bundling software is the difference. To access Google services you need to comply. Compliance results in a chain reaction of benefits to Google: everyone uses chrome, Google search, AdSense and so on. They basically lock you in even if you could technically leave the room at any time. If you don't bundle Google's products you can't have play services and store. If you do bundle them they become the default more often than not because people don't like changes.

 

What Apple does or doesn't do is not relevant. It'd be like if VW is the dominant car manufacturer and gets fined but Ferrari does not but their practices are the same and Ferrari could just make affordable cars to gain market share. Ferrari would not get punished for not trying to compete on market share. It's not really an argument. The outcome is the same but circumstances are different. Another more morbid comparison would be murder vs manslaughter: there is a dead body in both cases but the sentences are quite different.

That's why this fine makes no sense to me tho (and generally the entire beef around it) those who want to change are generally knowledgeable enough to actually able to do that. Those who couldn't care less or have no clue about changing in the 1st place and just want a cheap (android) phone that works get exactly that: "reliable google services" etc and go on about their day. I just don't get why is a "bad" thing to supply your OWN android software with your OWN tools to use it. 

 

Don't google own the play store/services? Why should they HAVE to make it available to others with out the correct "key" ?

[Orangeator]

But it's Googles products, their eco-system. If other companies want to use their products then they should be able to put restrictions. I don't see the issue. This is no different then Apple putting Safari on their devices....

[mynameisjuan]

3 minutes ago, Orangeator said:

But it's Googles products, their eco-system. If other companies want to use their products then they should be able to put restrictions. I don't see the issue. This is no different then Apple putting Safari on their devices....

I am not sure why companies are so restricted by laws on their own products. Its their product, they can do what they want. 

[RotoCoreOne]

8 hours ago, Sfekke said:

Mhh I should take a look at it, maybe I'll switch since Chrome memory usage is bugging me a little.

Especially since I come from Devils Canyon with DDR3 and recently upgraded to Coffee Lake with DDR4 but prices are insane so I only got 16GB's instead of a cheaper CPU.

Coming from 32GB's it hurts .. a lot lol

Keep in mind I'm experimenting with VM's a lot while doing the usual tasks.

Opera has been my daily for a couple years now. Love it.

[Thaldor]

5 hours ago, Rupe said:

I don't know what Google is being accused of honestly. I just read the article on Reuters and nowhere does anyone explain exactly what Google has done wrong or what the EU is really accusing them of. Bundling apps with their own software? Google should be able to decide what they want to do with their own software. Have as many caveats to using Android as they see fit in a free market if people/companies don't like it don't use it. I'm pretty sure I'm probably missing something but it looks as though the EU has fined googled for as far as I'm concerned nothing.

IIRC EU accused Google not only bundling their software with the Android but demanding manufacturers to ship those apps with their phones to get access to the Play Store. At least I remember reading something like that a while ago.

 

If this part of that, I'm ok how it turned out. Just the sheer marketshare that Google has with Android compared to the size and needfulness of Play Store makes very monopolistic setup. And if Google really demands manufacturers to ship their phones with Chrome and Gmail or their phones cannot access Play Store that turns quite fast a lot like misusing their monopolistic situation.

 

Those who call this wrong because Apple. I don't like how North-Korea Apple is, but still they don't have >70% smartphone markets and don't license their product outside. Google on the other hand has >70% of the markets just because almost everyone uses Android and Google basicly forces them to ship their phones with Chrome and Gmail because if they don't, they could just as well use Windows Phone with desert like software store and probably everyone can understand how important a software store for a phone aimed for consumers is.

 

Edit: Sorry, not Gmail but Google Search. By now everybody should know how much EU has fought with Google because of their search and forced Google to get transparent about advertising in their search engine.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Thaldor

[vanished]

That doesn't sound right to me.  Yes, it ships with Chrome, but Windows ships with Edge, MacOS ships with Safari - what's the difference?  It's certainly not "forced" last I checked - Firefox (and even Edge iirc if you can imagine) is available for Android so you do actually have choices - again, same as Windows, MacOS, etc.

[Guest]

Great news. It's time to hold large companies like Google, Microsoft and probably Apple to account for collecting data and unfair practices. This has been a big year for getting a better deal for the consumer already. Great work. 

[Teddy07]

I can´t state how much I hate the EU

[EPENEX]

The people that should be getting fined are the people who lock down the bootloader making it so I can't install a custom rom/root my device. I think that Google should be allowed to do whatever they want with their OS, even if that means making undeletable apps that are set as default. You should be able to just root the device or install a custom rom to circumvent this if you wish, but many service providers and phone manufactures lock down the device. This is what should be discouraged. It's Google's OS- so they can do what they want, to fine them for this is stupid, why isn't Apple being fined then?

[Brooksie359]

42 minutes ago, Teddy07 said:

I can´t state how much I hate the EU

I feel like they are the living embodiment of good intentions but horrible implementation. They have their heart in the right place but have no clue about how technology works and the implications of their regulations and law have on the tech industry. 

[Teddy07]

4 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

I feel like they are the living embodiment of good intentions but horrible implementation. They have their heart in the right place but have no clue about how technology works and the implications of their regulations and law have on the tech industry. 

Yes, for example, the new data protection law. Every stupid website informs me now about their data protection, cookies....  Annoying as hell to press yes I accept

[mr moose]

This is where me and the EU part ways. I can understand a law that prevents OS manufacturers from locking out competing browsers (there is whole other set of dimensions behind that debate) but to outlaw bundling?  nah.   I had the same issue with the IE and when they forced apple to put USB on the phone cables. 

 

 

[ItsMitch]

Fair to say Alphabet investors didn't give two fucks over this

 

[Sakkura]

26 minutes ago, mr moose said:

This is where me and the EU part ways. I can understand a law that prevents OS manufacturers from locking out competing browsers (there is whole other set of dimensions behind that debate) but to outlaw bundling?  nah.   I had the same issue with the IE and when they forced apple to put USB on the phone cables. 

 

 

So bundling one app is bad, but bundling a whole range of them is okay?

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

Then you have to wonder where does this money go towards.

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

So bundling one app is bad, but bundling a whole range of them is okay?

huh?

[Commodus]

4 hours ago, Orangeator said:

But it's Googles products, their eco-system. If other companies want to use their products then they should be able to put restrictions. I don't see the issue. This is no different then Apple putting Safari on their devices....

Two things.  First, Google has majority market share; Apple doesn't.  Antitrust regulation is about altering the behavior of companies in dominant market positions, because their policies can stifle competition and otherwise have a large effect.  Apple is a minority in the smartphone space, so its bundling of Safari isn't going to significantly change the landscape.

 

On top of this, Apple and Google have fundamentally different business models.  Apple only offers Safari on its own devices, so there's no issue of squeezing licensing partners or otherwise having wider control.  Google, meanwhile, offers Android to anyone who'll take up its offer.  Legions of other companies have to agree to Google's terms if they want to carry the Android features people want.  You can't really have a monopoly over your own self-contained product, but you can when you provide a platform for others.

[samcool55]

15 minutes ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

Then you have to wonder where does this money go towards.

It gets split between EU nations. They all get the same amount of money.

 

Anyway, i think some people here are a bit confused. The browser stuff is only a small part of the issue.

The actual issue is that, if you buy a phone from HTC, Samsung, LG, Nokia, whatever, they all come with android AND google stuff. Doesn't matter what brand you pick, google is there if you like it or not. If you buy a Samsung right now, it comes pre-loaded with stuff from a third-party (google) and there's no way to delete it. You can't uninstall stuff like the play store and that's the problem. Also the fact Android itself isn't exactly functional without Google stuff is also a problem...

 

And people saying "but apple has iOS and safari and microsoft has edge", that's more in a gray area. Apple itself is fine because they don't have a massive marketshare compared to Android and it's all from Apple. You buy an iPhone? It's from apple. iOS? From apple. Safari? From apple. It's less of a problem because it's all from the same company.

 

Edge, not sure about that one, but at least you can use windows without Edge (chrome or firefox for example can be used as alternatives) and you can change the OS if you want to (linux isn't a useful option for everyone, but it is one and that is enough, i think, can be wrong but imo it makes sense?)

[vanished]

37 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

So bundling one app is bad, but bundling a whole range of them is okay?

No, bundling any number is fine - forcing others to also bundle what you want, or to block any competitors from even being used is not.

[vanished]

1 hour ago, SC2Mitch said:

Fair to say Alphabet investors didn't give two fucks over this

 

The market is closed right now is it not?  That's why the line is so incredibly flat... so we won't see any reaction until it opens again.

[Sakkura]

4 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

No, bundling any number is fine - forcing others to also bundle what you want, or to block any competitors from even being used is not.

They're effectively forced to bundle everything.

[Jito463]

23 minutes ago, Commodus said:

Two things.  First, Google has majority market share; Apple doesn't.

Ironically, Apple has enough market mind share right now, that if they permitted other companies to build phones with iOS on it, they could sell a ton of them.  However, they won't because: Apple.  The primary reason MS became so dominant in the industry is because Gates understood the intrinsic value of licensing the software and leaving the hardware for others.  Apple never learned that lesson (or rather, they chose to ignore it).

[mr moose]

7 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

They're effectively forced to bundle everything.

Yep, or remove all their software.  Both options are stupid. 

 

I also have to ask, whats the difference between all these "forced options" and the app store? it comes bundled and you have no options to it. Same with ios and WP.

[ItsMitch]

21 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

The market is closed right now is it not?  That's why the line is so incredibly flat... so we won't see any reaction until it opens again.

The market opened right as the ruling was issued. Like 10 minutes after it opened.