Germany Bans Pre-Orders for Video Games Without a Specific Release Date

[ZacoAttaco]

I don't agree with pre-ordering games being banned in general, while I don't recommend pre-ordering most times, people are free to do what they want and it ensures they get the product on launch. Most companies show no respect to consumers who don't want to pre-order and the add bonuses should never really be incentive to pre-order.

 

Having said that, I agree with "Coming Soon" games not being allowed to take pre-orders. You're asking the consumer to put money down on a game they don't know enough about. Generally speaking if a game says "Coming Soon" then you're aren't seeing much of the product or gameplay, so why should I give you money now? Anyone could say they're making a game "Coming Soon" and just start taking pre-orders. Just not right.

[Clanscorpia]

2 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

We are talking about digital items with no set release date. Digital items that may be years away from being released. Digital items that do not have any limitation to the number of copies available.

Okay... And why is that a reason to ban it? If you dont agree with it dont buy it

[ZacoAttaco]

12 minutes ago, Clanscorpia said:

Okay... And why is that a reason to ban it? If you dont agree with it dont buy it

While I agree, people can use their own judgement, personally it seems like an unethical move for the publisher to begin selling copies of a game without the public knowing when to expect it.

 

Studio can't get theatres to sell tickets for a new film without a release date, so why should gaming publishers be allowed to?

[Clanscorpia]

1 minute ago, ZacoAttaco said:

While I agree, people can use their own judgement, personally it seems like an unethical move for the publisher to begin selling copies of a game without the public knowing when to expect it.

 

Studio can't get theatres to sell tickets for a new film without a release date, so why should gaming publishers be allowed to?

Sure its unethical but that doesnt mean they shouldnt be allowed. Lots of things are unethical but that doesnt mean they should be illegal because it might not be unethical to everyone or for every case. And its not that its not allowed they just dont do it.

[ZacoAttaco]

6 minutes ago, Clanscorpia said:

Sure its unethical but that doesnt mean they shouldnt be allowed. Lots of things are unethical but that doesnt mean they should be illegal because it might not be unethical to everyone or for every case. And its not that its not allowed they just dont do it.

You make good points, unethical does not equal illegal. But for me, in an industry where companies like EA and Activision will try anything to rip off consumers for a quick buck, regulation even on a small scale like this is a noticeable step forward.

[Mooshi]

This says more about German citizens that their government needs to babysit them from bad financial decisions lmao

[JoseGuya]

nanny state gonna nanny state

[vanished]

I would prefer that people just use their brains without the government needing to take control and restrict freedoms, but sadly that seems so rare these days that I don't see another option.  Ultimately this will be good for the people who were too stupid to know they shouldn't have been doing this, and probably won't impact anyone else, so a net benefit I suppose.

[Doobeedoo]

Well that's actually not bad. It makes sense too, cause if a game is so far away from release no point pre ordering a year early. And also make devs slack cause of reassurance from pre-orders. 

[Stefan Payne]

13 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

Germany has just banned pre-ordering products including video games which don't have a specific release date.

It would be nice for other countries to follow suit. Ultimately banning pre-orders for products would be great.

So yeah, what do you guys think?

I think its about the unspecific release date and nothing else.

 

The BGB (wich handles business transactions) likes to be pretty clear, uncertain release dates are not clear and that might be the problem.

 

But there is another problem with this:
it was _ONE COURT_ in Germany. So other Courts might see it differently.

We don't have the precedence thing you in the US have here in Germany. So other Courts aren't bound by this decision and can do their own ruling.

13 hours ago, Evanair said:

I wonder how this would apply to things like Kickstarter

Kickstarter isn't a preorder.

Its a completely different thing.

 

Here  its about getting things eventually and you paid for the things.

WIth Kickstarter you pay to support the development of something and might get something in return.

[Stefan Payne]

9 hours ago, ZacoAttaco said:

I don't agree with pre-ordering games being banned in general,

Its not about preordering.

Its about not knowing when you get your preordered thing.

 

This is a normal Consumer to Business Contract. Consumer gives Business Money, Business gives Consumer Product or provide Service. To pay before you get something is not uncomon.

In some case like ordering a car. You pay up front and get a car and also have a date when you get car.

 

In this case its like you pay Business but don't know when you get Service or Product. 

 

 

Easy as that...

 

Preordering will probably never be banned in Germany as it is a normal service, where its clear what you get and when you get it. Especially preordering games with a date.

 

If the product is delayed, that might be a problem and eventually void your contract.

But that depends on the circumstances and why that happned...

[mr moose]

8 hours ago, Clanscorpia said:

Sure its unethical but that doesnt mean they shouldnt be allowed. Lots of things are unethical but that doesnt mean they should be illegal because it might not be unethical to everyone or for every case. And its not that its not allowed they just dont do it.

Because while we can argue that one person may want to pay an exorbitant amount for a game that is not likely to be released for a while and that is fine and their personal problem to deal with should they see it that way, but it effects every single other consumer who wants that same product.  Because should enough enough people be suckered into doing that then the game dev has already made enough money that they can wind back content and move it to DLC without risking their revenue. It essentially opens the door for fraudulent behaviour as there are no contractual obligations on the developers part (something that is essential for consumer protection). 

 

It would appear this law allows developers to sell pre-releases so long as they commit to a release date.  It looks like it might also prevent them from shifting content into the DLC realm which is becoming a major problem with the game industry today, you don't get a finished game anymore you effectively pay $60--80 for the shareware version then continue to buy the rest of the game in installments.

[Peskanova]

7 hours ago, Mooshi said:

This says more about German citizens that their government needs to babysit them from bad financial decisions lmao

I guess that says more about your ignorance, I'm glad that germany did that, that's called consumer rights, and if a product its not for sale they can shield on the pre-order state to cover his ass now it need to be a full product, It's not about if we are not allowed to pre-order things its about the state of pre-order right now... just it isnt like 5 years ago, like nowadays all companies needs to pre-order to fund the product (wtf).

I dont know where you live but thats not a babysit to german citizens thats a statement against funding scams or anything like that. Better to protect your customer from this funding preordering fashion than get of the record deals with big companies and force laws like TTIP or Net neutrality , geez...

Its like saying that all countries are babysiting their citizens because bad bitcoin financial decisions..... no dude gov needs to regulate to pour scam from serious bussines
 

[Peskanova]

4 hours ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

I would prefer that people just use their brains without the government needing to take control and restrict freedoms, but sadly that seems so rare these days that I don't see another option.  Ultimately this will be good for the people who were too stupid to know they shouldn't have been doing this, and probably won't impact anyone else, so a net benefit I suppose.

I love people like you, waving freedom flag like you are told to do so, Germany is a democracy they can kick that law if  they want, but they have the freedom to protect themselves against scams. 

 

Instead saying freedom as a excuse to ignorance just inform a bit more, did you know that Germany are one of the best democracy in the whole world? , just as a canadian try to go and live in germany (without a job, find one there) and do the oposite in your country with a german citizen.... Im not from Germany dude but just saying that's against freedom is just misunderstanding democracy,freedom,germany and their people.

[ZacoAttaco]

49 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Its not about preordering.

Its about not knowing when you get your preordered thing.

Yeah agreed, even if people think pre-ordering is only for 'stupid' or 'dumb' people that doesn't mean it should be banned. But no doubt pre-ordering 'coming soon' games is wrong. It's not tolerated in other industries and shouldn't be allowed in the games industry.

[spellmanuk]

I think this is a reasonable comprimise honestly I have no problem with preorders personally but sometimes they are rediculous. however whats to stop them doing what they do on amazon and saying our release date is 1/1/2022 then move it forward later?

[Brooksie359]

2 hours ago, Peskanova said:

I love people like you, waving freedom flag like you are told to do so, Germany is a democracy they can kick that law if  they want, but they have the freedom to protect themselves against scams. 

 

Instead saying freedom as a excuse to ignorance just inform a bit more, did you know that Germany are one of the best democracy in the whole world? , just as a canadian try to go and live in germany (without a job, find one there) and do the oposite in your country with a german citizen.... Im not from Germany dude but just saying that's against freedom is just misunderstanding democracy,freedom,germany and their people.

Preordering without a release date isn't smart but it isn't a scam either. I mean you shouldn't need the government to make the choice if you can preorder without a release date or not. If you say the citizens can choose if they want it or not by changing the law if they don't like it then why have the law in the first place? Why not just let them choose if they want to preorder a game without an official release date? I think you are misunderstanding the point being made by others. It's not so much about waving the freedom flag as much as not creating unnecessary laws. People should make decisions themselves otherwise you end up with people who are unable to make decisions for themselves. It's just like if you shelter someone it becomes difficult when they enter a place where they are no longer sheltered. It's not the government job to protect people from making decisions that may not be the greatest. If these were simply scams then I would say good on them but they aren't. Are they the greatest practice? No but it doesn't mean it should be banned.

[Peskanova]

24 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Preordering without a release date isn't smart but it isn't a scam either. I mean you shouldn't need the government to make the choice if you can preorder without a release date or not. If you say the citizens can choose if they want it or not by changing the law if they don't like it then why have the law in the first place? Why not just let them choose if they want to preorder a game without an official release date? I think you are misunderstanding the point being made by others. It's not so much about waving the freedom flag as much as not creating unnecessary laws. People should make decisions themselves otherwise you end up with people who are unable to make decisions for themselves. It's just like if you shelter someone it becomes difficult when they enter a place where they are no longer sheltered. It's not the government job to protect people from making decisions that may not be the greatest. If these were simply scams then I would say good on them but they aren't. Are they the greatest practice? No but it doesn't mean it should be banned.

As I said, like bitcoin market, is a scam? no, Are they the greatest practice? no. but gov are baning from all countries and people doesnt give a fuck about freedom, usa and eu, are baning crypto startups and you dont say that is against freedom. Same way they are protecting people from crypto scam baning crypto-crowfunding they are baning this. All cripto crowfunding are scam? no. But I think despite china, cryptofounding is baned around the world, same practice as preorder ban.

[Thaldor]

I think this is step forward. Game industry doesn't care about it's customers, doesn't give a single cent about morals and they have overstepped the boundaries too far. Keeping games in "early access", "beta" or other v.0.9 state indefinitely has been a long time coming, personally I was really suprised that World of Tanks released v.1.0 (don't really have energy at the moment to check if they left the "open beta" state). And all that s**t just to have one sentence in their ToS:

Quote

At the "open beta" state, everything in the game can change without notice

Really, lootboxes were just the tip of the iceberg and the straw that broke the camels back. And I hope this kind of legal intervention continues. It's just discraceful to see how greedy and just plain evil so many game studios have become and how many game studios are ready to probably sell their mothers to make profit. Looking at how "casino" games rush into the Play Store even openly advertising as games with casinos as sponsors and then someone has the pokerface to say "It's not gambling".

 

There's a lot of good game studios out there who do good work and keep good ethics. It's just that the big players have gone too far far too many times to poison the industry and make it what it is today and it's just a need for legal interruption and making binding laws to where there is none. If you want to have lootboxes in your game, pay up the gabling taxes, if you want to release a game, release it don't just talk about releasing it.

[Brooksie359]

2 hours ago, Peskanova said:

As I said, like bitcoin market, is a scam? no, Are they the greatest practice? no. but gov are baning from all countries and people doesnt give a fuck about freedom, usa and eu, are baning crypto startups and you dont say that is against freedom. Same way they are protecting people from crypto scam baning crypto-crowfunding they are baning this. All cripto crowfunding are scam? no. But I think despite china, cryptofounding is baned around the world, same practice as preorder ban.

Cryptocurrency is a scam alot of the times. Honestly I think the whole thing is a scam but that's at least debatable. And when I say it's a scam alot of the time I am saying people use cryptocurrency as scams just look at bitconnect. With preordering before a release date you are at least getting the game just not when you thought you would. Cryptocurrency is bad more so because it isn't regulated. It's equivalent an unregulated stock market. Alot of stuff people do with cryptocurrency is strait up illegal if it was done with stocks which is why it's simply banned in places as it is extremely hard to regulate it. There is also the issue with it being used for illegal black market deals. There are a whole host of issues that arise from cryptocurrency. To compare this to cryptocurrency is just ridiculous. 

[Tech_Dreamer]

like how this gives consumer a certain amount of control over fraud deals.

[suicidalfranco]

no problem, i got all the game i need in Warframe. All games are shit anyway by it's standards anyway

 

and now we wait for Fortuna...

[TacoSenpai]

I will preorder all the waifu simulators and figures I want thank you very much...

[AnonymousGuy]

Every publisher is just going to set some arbitrary release date in the future and then either call it a pre-alpha release date or just miss the date completely.

 

Should I expect another stupid law requiring devs to hit their stated release dates?

[Jsmith]

This is a good idea.