Fired Guild Wars dev rails against the community (shades of GamerGate)

[Stefan Payne]

8 minutes ago, NMS said:

Should we ask her opinion on Battlefield 5..?

Rather what was Gamer Gate about...

 

Some say its about harassing women.

Some say its about woman trading some "special favours" with gaming journalists....

 

If you watch the videos, you might keep a puke bag ready...

[Morgan Everett]

I've some sympathy for her. Though I'm somewhat accustomed to it by now, the casual disregard for expertise can be frustrating, whether disregarded politely or not.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

8 hours ago, CoolMarquis97 said:

This is why I'm upset with AreaNet's actions. They have opened the doors to more of this behavior. 

(...)

 

No, firing a person for mistreating customers / partners isn't opening the door for others to request firing a different person due to disliking her opinions.

Whoever wrote the quoted message either did it independently of the Price case, or didn't understand what got her fired in the first place.

 

58 minutes ago, Morgan Everett said:

I've some sympathy for her. Though I'm somewhat accustomed to it by now, the casual disregard for expertise can be frustrating, whether disregarded politely or not.

If you don't like disregard for expertise, you should feel sympathy for Deroid: I'd argue that a person who design games for a living doesn't have any expertise advantage over someone who plays games for a living when it comes to discussing the players' experience and what drives their perception.

He acknowledge her expertise and offered his insight. She disregard his expertise and lashed out like a rabid dog.

 

Just imagine a Formula 1 driver reporting "the car is understeering, we may want to add some degrees to the front wing" and obtaining "shut up, idiot, I'm an engineer. Look everyone, an asshat is trying to mansplain aerodynamics to me!" as a response from his track engineer.

[Humbug]

9 hours ago, CoolMarquis97 said:

if a female gamer tried doing this to a male developer and he shut her down, people would parade that dude in the street.

You really believe this?

That gamers would support a male dev abusing a polite female gamer?

 

9 hours ago, CoolMarquis97 said:

Price did nothing wrong.

Did you read the twitter exchange on the opening post in this thread?

 

9 hours ago, CoolMarquis97 said:

Gaming culture is a cesspool of toxicity and to ignore that is just plain ignorance. 

It seems to be that Price's problem is that she cannot separate issues she has faced in the past from the current person who is talking to her. The gamer who was speaking to her was extremely polite and respectful, yet she went after him because he was a male fan speaking to a female game dev. In her mind he was the embodiment of her frustrations, even though he hadn't done anything wrong.

 

e.g. It would be like you punishing your current girlfriend because your ex-girlfriend cheated on you.... and thereby all girls are evil etc...

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, Morgan Everett said:

I've some sympathy for her.

Why? 
Because she's a woman? 
Have you read what this shit is about??

If you can, watch the videos I provided. Its bad, really bad - for her...

 

1 hour ago, Morgan Everett said:

Though I'm somewhat accustomed to it by now, the casual disregard for expertise can be frustrating, whether disregarded politely or not.

Deroir said:

Quote

Really interesting thread to read :OK

However, allow me to disagree *slightly*. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest). I believe the issu lies in the contraints of the Living Story's narrative design (1 of 3)

Quote

When you want the outcome to be the same across the board for all players' experience, then yes, by design you are extremely limited in how you can contruct the personality of the PC (2 of 3)

Quote

But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express *their* character through branching dialogue options (wich also aren't just onte checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), (3 of 4 cause I count seemingly...)

Quote

then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG

Nontheless, I appreciate the insightful thread! (end)

How can you have sympathy for somone who answers with:

Quote

thanks for trying to tell me what we do internally, my dude

Then Deroir says that he is interested in dialogue and so on

 

to wich she responds:

Quote

today in being a female game dev:

 

"allow me -- a person who does not work with you -- explain to you how you do your job"

 

Quote

like, the next rando a**hat who attempts to explain the concept of branching dialogue to me -- as if, you know, having worked in the game narrative for a f* DECADE, I have never heard of it -- is getting instablocked. PSA.

 

And getting the boot for that seems kinda justified, don't you agree??
And Mike was pretty quick in firing her and the other guy.

 

 

WHY is nobody talking about the White Knight who came to her defense?! He also got fired!!

 

[Stefan Payne]

9 hours ago, CoolMarquis97 said:

if a female gamer tried doing this to a male developer and he shut her down, people would parade that dude in the street.

The outcome wouldn't be much different.

While the male would also have been fired, nobody would have cared.

 

9 hours ago, CoolMarquis97 said:

Price did nothing wrong.

And wat about Peter Fries?? You know, the dude that came to her defense...

 

Yes, she did.

She was a bitch to a very polite influencer, who probably would have had good connections to arena.net.

Big Mistake...

9 hours ago, CoolMarquis97 said:

Gaming culture is a cesspool of toxicity and to ignore that is just plain ignorance. 

Yes, but to everyone equally. And if you are a female, you usually have the "Boob Bonus"...

Its not like Gamers are especially mean to females, they are equally mean to everyone. Nobody cares how you look on the other side or about the Gender. 

 

So your post is just full of misinformation and couldn't be further from the truth....

She messed up, she treated a customer in  a wrong way. Got fired for that. End of story.

[GilmourD]

8 hours ago, Gullerback said:

Everyones wrong here tbh.. She i dont think deserved to be fired (tho clearly reprimanded).  The customer isn't always right.

If the dude she responded to were being a toxic, sexist, mansplaining asshole I would agree with you.

Turns out she was the asshole.

[Morgan Everett]

29 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Why? 
Because she's a woman? 
Have you read what this shit is about??

 

And getting the boot for that seems kinda justified, don't you agree??

 

For the reason stated; no; yes; no.

[FratStar]

2 hours ago, Morgan Everett said:

I've some sympathy for her. Though I'm somewhat accustomed to it by now, the casual disregard for expertise can be frustrating, whether disregarded politely or not.

Just because you do something professionally that doesn't mean you can't receive feedback. Remember customers engage with the product just because you create it doesn't mean a person who engages with it doesn't know anything.

You have to use your professional judgement to determine which feedback has merit and Deroir's did especially when the person is a partner for the exact product that you're talking about. like @SpaceGhostC2C said it's like an engineer ignoring a race car driver's feedback because they aren't an engineer.

 

If you think working on something (a product) means you're immune to feedback that is willful ignorance, and you won't get very far with that attitude in most situations.

[EarthWormJM2]

16 hours ago, Humbug said:

Having said that she also seems delusional person to me, she thinks it's ok to attack random innocent members of the community based on injustices that she has faced in the past, she cannot understand the responsibility of representing her employer in public. Amazingly she thinks the community is more toxic than her.

...this. Using your gender as an excuse to be a dick is not ok, especially when no one was hostile towards you and even apologized. (unfortunately this is becoming more the norm these days) Are there other cases of inequality towards women in gaming, yes, but this is clearly not one of them and areanet has a reputation to uphold with their community. If you work at a restaurant and go off on a customer, you probably would get fired too, not because of gender, but because you were an ass, same idea.

[GilmourD]

Just remember, guys... Thinking that this is her fault BECAUSE she's a woman is just proving her right.

She got fired because she was an asshole to somebody that gave her respectful constructive criticism, not because she's a woman.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Crunchy Dragon

[Morgan Everett]

1 hour ago, FratStar said:

Just because you do something professionally that doesn't mean you can't receive feedback.

The trouble is that, no matter how well-meaning they may be, it can be pretty irritating when a layperson offers unsolicited, contrary views about some aspect of your field of expertise, as I know from experience. I imagine it must be still more frustrating when this happens routinely, and relates to broader, problematic gender dynamics. 

[EarthWormJM2]

11 hours ago, Eaglerino said:

I don't understand how people are smart enough to go through school and start developing for a relatively sizeable gaming company, yet are still too stupid to remember not to waste their effort and opinions on Twitter. Twitter has gotten more people into trouble than if they had committed some political scandal

That seems to be the culture social media has created for these people. They can block and ignore anything they don't like or agree with so they never have to see anything they don't like and can be surrounded by people with their same views and ideas on social media. Then these people get out into the real world and don't know how to handle themselves when they are presented with differing opinions or people and things they don't like or agree with. It's kinda sad the direction things are going...

[AngryBeaver]

Honestly,

 

People need to understand that what we do outside of work can now effect us at work. If you want to act like an ass on a forum or social media and you are someone of public interest then don't be surprised when stuff like this happens. I know our current president doesn't exactly embody this ideal, but he should be an example of what saying dumb stuff on social media can do to you.

 

I mean for her to snap on this guy for what he said was already pretty extreme, then she wanted to throw things in the sex card. I don't care what race, sex, species, whatever you are... there is still a right and wrong way to treat people and her actions were not in the right. Hopefully she will learn from this and keep her mouth in check in the future.

[AngryBeaver]

12 minutes ago, Morgan Everett said:

The trouble is that, no matter how well-meaning they may be, it can be pretty irritating when a layperson offers unsolicited, contrary views about some aspect of your field of expertise, as I know from experience. I imagine it must be still more frustrating when this happens routinely, and relates to broader, problematic gender dynamics. 

It can be irritating, but as an adult you have to let it go. If I am confident in my knowledge and skill in my field of expertise then I can shrug off any differing opinions from people not in the know.

 

Now if you not confident in yourself or insecure in your abilities then you can react poorly in a way similar to how she did.

 

Just because someone offers their opinion or a differing view is not a reason to lose your shit. This is life, there are going to be back and forth dialogues and this was one she willfully participated in. So I am even less willing to here excuses for her.

[Morgan Everett]

7 minutes ago, AngryBeaver said:

It can be irritating, but as an adult you have to let it go. If I am confident in my knowledge and skill in my field of expertise then I can shrug off any differing opinions from people not in the know.

 

Now if you not confident in yourself or insecure in your abilities then you can react poorly in a way similar to how she did.

 

Just because someone offers their opinion or a differing view is not a reason to lose your shit. This is life, there are going to be back and forth dialogues and this was one she willfully participated in. So I am even less willing to here excuses for her.

I didn't see any evidence that she 'lost her shit'; she just responded sharply. It's perhaps not quite the way I would have responded, but I wouldn't rule out doing something similar, and have done so previously. 

[AngryBeaver]

6 minutes ago, Morgan Everett said:

I didn't see any evidence that she 'lost her shit'; she just responded sharply. It's perhaps not quite the way I would have responded, but I wouldn't rule out doing something similar, and have done so previously. 

Just look at the comments from the OP. That is not a normal reaction by any means.

[Morgan Everett]

15 minutes ago, AngryBeaver said:

Just look at the comments from the OP. That is not a normal reaction by any means.

I've read them. I can't say whether it's a normal reaction in those circumstances. 

[Humbug]

4 minutes ago, Morgan Everett said:

I've read them. I can't say whether it's a normal reaction in those circumstances. 

The circumstances being when somebody politely and respectfully disagrees with one of your points on social media.

 

The issue is she attacked an innocent person. We all have frustrations in our lives, we all have people who piss us off. But we don't go around attacking random people and then using our frustrations as an excuse. It's very childish behaviour.

[GilmourD]

1 minute ago, Humbug said:

The circumstances being when somebody politely and respectfully disagrees with one of your points on social media.

The guy even thanked her for her original thread and she threw a hissy fit.

[Jito463]

13 hours ago, Thaldor said:

WHAT?!? On the year 2018 IGDA makes a guide for social media rules?!?

As I read it, they merely called for companies to make the guidelines themselves, not that they were creating any guidelines of their own.

8 hours ago, FratStar said:

If you think working on something (a product) means you're immune to feedback that is willful ignorance, and you won't get very far with that attitude in most situations.

I do computer repair for a living and have done so for 2 decades (been working with computers for even longer than that); yet I still am learning new things all the time, even from customers.

9 hours ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Just imagine a Formula 1 driver reporting "the car is understeering, we may want to add some degrees to the front wing" and obtaining "shut up, idiot, I'm an engineer. Look everyone, an asshat is trying to mansplain aerodynamics to me!" as a response from his track engineer.

7 hours ago, Morgan Everett said:

The trouble is that, no matter how well-meaning they may be, it can be pretty irritating when a layperson offers unsolicited, contrary views about some aspect of your field of expertise, as I know from experience. I imagine it must be still more frustrating when this happens routinely, and relates to broader, problematic gender dynamics. 

I get that in my job, customers occasionally thinking that they know how to diagnose a problem better than me.  I just shrug it off, because that's what an adult does.

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Crunchy Dragon

[Morgan Everett]

12 minutes ago, Humbug said:

The circumstances being when somebody politely and respectfully disagrees with one of your points on social media.

I don't think that's a complete picture, of course. 

[Thaldor]

13 minutes ago, AngryBeaver said:

Honestly,

 

People need to understand that what we do outside of work can now effect us at work. If you want to act like an ass on a forum or social media and you are someone of public interest then don't be surprised when stuff like this happens. I know our current president doesn't exactly embody this ideal, but he should be an example of what saying dumb stuff on social media can do to you.

 

I mean for her to snap on this guy for what he said was already pretty extreme, then she wanted to throw things in the sex card. I don't care what race, sex, species, whatever you are... there is still a right and wrong way to treat people and her actions were not in the right. Hopefully she will learn from this and keep her mouth in check in the future.

People need to understand when they are representing the company they work for and when they are only representing themselves. It might be very imitating to show off who you work for in your social media frontpage, but at the same time you are actually representing your employer. Same thing if you openly discuss what is your job and don't even try to conseal anything as in it's clear for everyone who you work for. Making second accounts and clearly dividing your life is too much hassle for way too many and without that this kind of idiotism happens.

 

From personal experience (or more like lack of it) I don't disclose anywhere online what company I work for or even the name of my own company, mostly because it's not a matter for everyone and secondly I can say what I want and where I want and it cannot be mirrored to my company or my employer. Those who know me and who I work for know also very well what is the difference between my online presense and my business presense. Of course I have CV and portfolio which both disclose everything, but I show them to only those who they concern. I cannot brag about who I work and what I do, but then again maybe I don't even want to, it eats my creditability but who cares.

 

If I ever hire someone who goes and publicly while representing my company says that some part of people who very well might be my companys potential customers are asshats, I would fire them as soon as possible and rehire them just to fire them again. As Arenanet wrote in their respondence to Otaku (or was it Polygon), every employee has choices, they can take the criticism as constructive and answer to it politely and respectfully, they can walk it off and leave it be or then they can attack and feel the consequenses.

 

What comes to the critic and laymans telling how professionals should do their job. Part of the professionalism is to be able to take the critic and forget it or learn from it.  Especially in game industry it's the worst if you don't listen to the audience and especially those who are active, because it is way too common to get blinded by your creation and so get blind for your mistakes. Also if you start to attack those who are trying to start discussion even about somethign that is so dear to you and you will never change it, you may at the same time silence those who have actually found critical problems in your product. Yeah yeah yeah, you are the professional because you have done it and you get paid to do it, but at the same time on the other side of the wire can be someone who actually knows your game better than you know it (in bigger games only handful of developers actually know the game and can build same kind of image as the players) and then there is tons of people who are better doing what you do than you are (like the one twitter guy named Ponylover2837462 might actually be John Carmack (he isn't, but for example) who just came to say that you could code that part differently nd make it better that way, and that is just the magic of the internet).

[AngryBeaver]

9 minutes ago, Morgan Everett said:

I don't think that's a complete picture, of course. 

It very rarely is. That being said there is never and excuse for someone to behave in the way she did. I mean she goes on to speak about how she felt betrayed because of promised made to her about how they would fix gender issues.... then she turns around and makes gender specific insults on her rant...

 

So now she wants gender equality to just go in one direction? In the end she made her own bed and now she can sleep in it. This is just more cause = reaction.

[Humbug]

33 minutes ago, Morgan Everett said:

I don't think that's a complete picture, of course. 

It never is. But you have to own it and take responsibility for your actions.