Qualcomm Snapdragon 850 revealed - Exclusive for full Windows 10, not your phone.

[GoodBytes]

In a previous news, I mentioned Dell was making a convertible dual screen phone/tablet device, with a supposed next gen Snapdragon CPU designed for Windows 10 specifically via partnership between Microsoft and Qualcomm with speculation that it would be the 850. Now it is confirmed, and true. The Snapdragon 850 is real, and it is designed for Windows 10, full Windows 10.

 

 

Microsoft has been working with Qualcomm for a few years via partnership, to make Windows 10 on ARM powered chip a reality. Since then, Qualcomm has been inserting technologies in their high-end processors to help run complex and demanding OS such as Windows, and help make the Win32 x86 emulation a reality.

 

From a very soft launch of Windows 10 on ARM based systems with a select number of OEMs partners and Qualcomm, to make a limited production of system a reality, it was shown that Windows 10 on ARM on a Snapdragon 835 (latest at the time) was actually running pretty well. While benchmarks could not be executed on the system (as it would go through then Win32 x86 emulation layer as, as of yet, none are compiled native for ARM64 for native execution to know the real performance and how it compares),  in summary, reviewers said it runs like a Core i3 CPU when running ARM64/UWP apps, however, if you run Win32 x86 programs, you quickly notice a degradation in performance reaching Atom CPU performance, making it OK to run very simple programs, like a music program, and maybe Photoshop if you stick to small images, simple filters and very few layers and simple brushes, but that was, with the Snapdragon 835.

 

Now arrived the Snapdragon 850. This new processor is 350MHz faster than the 835 (which was the SoC that Windows on ARM was running on), and 150MHz faster than the 845, but is designed for PC and not for phones. What does that mean? Well without knowing all the details:

• SoC power saving system is not longer super aggressive to save every drop of battery and limit heat production. Instead it favors performance. As a result, it needs a larger cooling solution. With the faster SoC it brings a 30% performance increase compared to the 835. This is with the introduction of the Kyro 385 CPUs.
   
• GPU gets a 30% increase in performance (compared to the 835). And yes, like the 835, it has DirectX support.
   
• Native 4K UHD video capture capture. Not only it can do 4K playback but also capture without the need of any software trickery.
   
• Native multiple display support (hint hint: dual screen convertible device, and laptops with video output, like what you would expect from a normal laptop)
   
• Using Windows power saving communication system the OS supports, despite the reduction of the aggressiveness of the SoC power saving, it has a 20% reduction in power consumption running Windows that it would otherwise have. Once again, compared to the 835.
   
• 20% increase in Gigabit LTE speeds over the 835, and support more mobile carriers worldwide. This is thanks to the new X20 LTE modem chip it now sports.
   
• Improved sound via the new Hexagon 685 digital signal processor (DSP) chip that the chip includes. This includes: Qualcomm Aqstic and Qualcomm aptX audio, which brings: Virtual surround sound, Up to native Direct Stream Digital (DSD) format, High-dynamic-range and ultra-low Total Harmonic Distortion plus Noise (THD+N), and aptX HD support. These technology works on both USB Type-C and Headphone plug.
   
• Hardware optimized for Machine Learning and AI via Microsoft's Machine Learning SDK. Basically, instead of letting the CPU or GPU handle any machine learning/AI tasks, you have a dedicated specialized processor for this task. At a consumer level, this would allow (assuming the software utilizes it), theoretically, provide better spell checking, grammar checking, increase in performance in digital assistance, and such at reduce system load. I expect the next generation of Office to use it, and so in Cortana later on.

 

 

 

 

Quote

While many of the components in the new Snapdragon 850 are found in the Snapdragon 845, the 850's tends to be clocked higher and tuned for Windows 10 due to better thermal space, larger batteries, different drivers, and unique hardware. As such, we will never see a Snapdragon 850 in any smartphone.

For instance, the Kyro 385 CPU is the same as found in the current Snapdragon 845, but instead of a 2.8GHz clock speed, it now goes up to 2.95GHz (the Snapdragon 835 was even lower at 2.6GHz).

 

Additionally, the Snapdragon 850 brings support for Microsoft's Machine Learning SDK and artificial intelligence (A.I.) initiatives. As developers being to leverage A.I. in their apps, the Snapdragon will support them through direct hardware acceleration.

[...]

Qualcomm is also making a subtle shift away from the previous 'Mobile PC Platform' with the Snapdragon 835 to the newer and more ambiguous 'Mobile Compute Platform' with the Snapdragon 850.

 

These changes should make Win32 x86 emulation run faster, and improve further the overall experience, including ARM64 native programs

Full specs sheet:

Quote

Cellular Modem – Snapdragon X20

• Peak Download Speed: 1.2 Gbps
• Peak Upload Speed: 150 Mbps

CPU – Kryo 385

• CPU Clock Speed: Up to 2.96 GHz
• CPU Cores: 8 x Kryo 385 CPU

Adreno Subsystem – Adreno 630

• Open GL ES 3.2, Open CL 2.0, Vulkan, DirectX 12
• Ultra HD Premium video playback and encoding @ 4K (3840x2160) 30fps
• Slow motion HEVC video encoding of FHD (1080p) up to 120fps
• H.264 (AVC), H.265 (HEVC), VP9, DisplayPort over USB Type-C support

Camera – Spectra 280

• New architecture for 14-bit image signal processing, with support for up to:
• Single HFR 16 MPix camera at 60fps ZSL
• Dual 16 MPix cameras at 30fps ZSL
• Single 32 MPix camera at 30fps ZSL
• Multi-frame Noise Reduction (MFNR) with accelerated image stabilization
• Hybrid Autofocus with support for dual phase detection (2PD) sensors
• Ultra HD Premium video capture @ 4K (3840x2160) 30fps

Wi-Fi – 802.11ad Multi-gigabit

• Wi-Fi integrated 802.11ac 2x2 with MU-MIMO
• 2.4 GHz, 5 GHz and 60 GHz

Bluetooth – Bluetooth 5

Charging – Qualcomm Quick Charge 4+

 

The company said to expect new devices using this new ship at the end of 2018 and 2019.

 

 

Source: https://www.windowscentral.com/qualcomm-snapdragon-850

 

 

[Princess Luna]

Brace yourself for the Can it run Crysis jokes... Seriously though it'd be cool have a Qualcomm high end CPU to break some the Intel & AMD paradigm.

 

Imagine yourself in 2020 running a gaming PC powered by Qualcomm CPU and Intel GPU for the lulz.

[Starelementpoke]

Neat, but how much will it hurt my wallet?

[captain_to_fire]

Well looks like Intel should be concerned now. Apple is going ARM for their laptops, Microsoft is pushing ARM for laptops and Intel failed in mobile with their attempt to push Atom to phones and tablets around 2012 to 2013.

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

5 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

The company said to expect new devices using this new ship at the end of 2018 and 2019.

Now that an ARM chip can now run full Windows 10, can it now emulate 64-bit Win32 programs? Saw this another article from Android Police:

 

In the realm of laptop-specific features, there's really not much to go on aside from the fact that Qualcomm is now promising native support in Windows 10 for ARM64 applications via the 64-bit Win32 SDK. There's also support for the 64-bit version of Microsoft's Edge Browser.

[Arika]

7 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Snapdragon CPU designed for Windows 10

a full version of windows 10? not S? is this the beginning of a new CPU manufacturer in the desktop market?

[captain_to_fire]

2 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

Brace yourself for the Can it run Crysis jokes... Seriously though it'd be cool have a Qualcomm high end CPU to break some the Intel & AMD paradigm.

 

Imagine yourself in 2020 running a gaming PC powered by Qualcomm CPU and Intel GPU for the lulz.

Which means all ARM based PCs are pre-built with the memory and storage soldered to the board so it's not for PCMR people

[captain_to_fire]

5 minutes ago, Starelementpoke said:

Neat, but how much will it hurt my wallet?

Current SD835 Windows 10S laptops and tablets are expensive. [here] [here]

[Deli]

A 30% faster Atom CPU is still very underwhelming......Maybe after a few more generations. It'll reach the point becoming "usable".

[AlTech]

@GoodBytes Typo. Your post says Snapdragon 950 instead of 850.

[GoodBytes]

55 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

Now that an ARM chip can now run full Windows 10, can it now emulate 64-bit Win32 programs? Saw this another article from Android Police:

 

In the realm of laptop-specific features, there's really not much to go on aside from the fact that Qualcomm is now promising native support in Windows 10 for ARM64 applications via the 64-bit Win32 SDK. There's also support for the 64-bit version of Microsoft's Edge Browser.

From what we know so far, Windows on ARM is 64-bit OS, the chip is 64-bit, you can run 64-bit (ARM64) native programs from the web (VLC released their own ARM64 version of the program, fully featured and functional, which you can download from their website, when you have Windows 10 on ARM powered PC. Yes already! Nice of them to do so. I hope Firefox and Chrominium will too, or at least have a branch made by someone until official support becomes a reality. I expect official Chrome to be the last web browser due to the Google and Microsoft having long standing issues between each other).

 

As for running x86 programs, it can only do 32-bit as of yet. Maybe Microsoft is in the works for 64-bit support, but so far, we don't know for sure. I doubt that they will bring it, as Microsoft seeks ARM64 native apps. They want devs to recompile their stuff for ARM64. Microsoft has added support for this, SDK is fully released, and even made a 1-click solution in the latest version of Visual Studio to compile their x86 programs to ARM64. Microsoft is treating x86 Win32 emulation as a fallback for consumers, in the case the program you want is not available in ARM64.

 

Also, keep in mind that, so far, the systems that is and will be running Snapdragon CPUs aren't aimed at demanding professionals who seeks high performance or accuracy. Maybe, in the future, if the system sells well, and even more powerful chips comes out (maybe even a few desktop variants), this might be a possibility, but Microsoft certainly does NOT want devs to ignore ARM based devices. They don't want devs to go: "the emulation will take care of it, so no need to do anything", and just ignore the fact that the user experience is affected. So, I think their current strategy is a balance between pushing devs for native ARM64 version and not ignore the market, and consumers having the ability to run all their programs that don't have native support yet.

 

[GoodBytes]

6 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

@GoodBytes Typo. Your post says Snapdragon 950 instead of 850.

Oops! Thank you! I guess I had the Samsung 950 SSD in my head

[AlTech]

1 minute ago, GoodBytes said:

Oops! Thank you! I guess I had the Samsung 950 SSD in my head

or the Lumia 950 rip .

 

Also, why didn't Qualcomm just offer a Configurable TDP?

 

E.g. Offer 10w Snapdragon 850 for 12-14" laptop at higher clockspeed with better performance.

 

And then if an OEM wants to have it in 5w mode or 15w mode then they should be able to.

[GoodBytes]

38 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

Current SD835 Windows 10S laptops and tablets are expensive. [here] [here]

I think it has more to do with the fact that these are very small productions. I don't think manufactures expected them to sale at all. The whole thing so far is a VERY soft launch. OEMs, Microsoft, and Qualcomm barely talk about it. It was always "yea, we have this.. ARM... Windows, it is pretty cool... yay... In other news, look at THIS!!!!". They were just testing the waters, maybe try and get some early enthusiastic devs to have a platform to test their stuff. Performance needed work from reviews, and I think everyone knew this.

 

So I expect an official lunch at the end of the year, and I expect system with variety of prices to come.

 

[AlTech]

5 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

From what we know so far, Windows on ARM is 64-bit OS, the chip is 64-bit, you can run 64-bit (ARM64) native programs from the web (VLC released their own ARM64 version of the program, fully featured and functional, which you can download from their website, when you have Windows 10 on ARM powered PC. Yes already! Nice of them to do so. I hope Firefox and Chrominium will too, or at least have a branch made by someone until official support becomes a reality. I expect official Chrome to be the last web browser due to the Google and Microsoft having long standing issues between them).

 

As for running x86 programs, it can only do 32-bit so far. Maybe Microsoft is in the works for 64-bit support, but so far, we don't know for sure. I doubt that they will bring it, as Microsoft seeks ARM64 native apps. They want devs to recompile their stuff for ARM64. Microsoft has added support for this, SDK is fully released, and even made a 1-click solution in the latest version of Visual Studio to compile their x86 programs to ARM64. Microsoft is treating x86 Win32 emulation as a fallback, in the case the program you want is not available in ARM64.

Well that's part of the problem.

 

Win32 Emulation should work in both 32 Bit and 64 Bit and then if an app supports ARM64 then it should use that instead. But not allowing x86-64 apps to run is stupid unless they legitimately can't get it working at an acceptable level of performance.

[GoodBytes]

2 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

or the Lumia 950 rip .

 

Also, why didn't Qualcomm just offer a Configurable TDP?

 

E.g. Offer 10w Snapdragon 850 for 12-14" laptop at higher clockspeed with better performance.

 

And then if an OEM wants to have it in 5w mode or 15w mode then they should be able to.

Well lower TDP, lower the performance. There is no really any escape for the big steps you are asking. Down-volting on hand picked chips won't help a lot. The die size is the same, the architecture is the same.

[AlTech]

Just now, GoodBytes said:

Well lower TDP, lower the performance. There is no really any escape for the big steps you are asking. Down-volting on hand picked chips won't help a lot. The die size is the same, the architecture is the same.

No, I'm saying OEMs should be able to choose to increase it or decrease it.

 

Personally I think the TDP should have been increased to at least 10w so that it can actually maintain good performance.

[GoodBytes]

Just now, AluminiumTech said:

Win32 Emulation should work in both 32 Bit and 64 Bit and then if an app supports ARM64 then it should use that instead. But not allowing x86-64 apps to run is stupid unless they legitimately can't get it working at an acceptable level of performance.

Ok, name me a program that really need 64-bit support that isn't open source (which I expect someone, as a minimum, to make a branch of it, spend a week-end plugging the project in Visual Studio and hit the compile button for ARM64).

 

Hint: Don't mention PC games, or 3D Studio Max, or Blender, etc. because all these requires GPUs that this SoC really doesn't have.

[GoodBytes]

1 minute ago, AluminiumTech said:

No, I'm saying OEMs should be able to choose to increase it or decrease it.

Yes, and you as a consumer you would buy a 850, and will run like a 1st gen Atom potato, while your friend 850 runs like Core i5, and you won't know why, as a non-tech savvy person.

 

[AlTech]

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Ok, name me a program that really need 64-bit support that isn't open source (which I expect someone, as a minimum, to make a branch of it, spend a week-end plugging the project in Visual Studio and hit the compile button for ARM64).

 

Hint: Don't mention PC games, or 3D Studio Max, or Blender, etc. because all these requires GPUs that this SoC really doesn't have.

Google Chrome. 

Funnily enough, Visual Studio itself .  Good luck trying to fork either of them. Yes I know Chromium exists but most people use Chrome.

 

32 Bit should have died a long time ago. Not providing emulation of 64 Bit Windows is Windows 10 on ARM's biggest problem right now imho. Right behind it is the performance.

[AlTech]

4 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Yes, and you as a consumer you would buy a 850, and will run like a 1st gen Atom potato, while your friend 850 runs like Core i5, and you won't know why, as a non-tech savvy person.

 

Well they could create different SKUs like the 850 running at 5w, 851 running at 10w and 852 running at 18w.

 

Totally up to them but I think a 10 or 15w SOC would be good. With Nvidia's Tegra lineup in the X1 they increased the TDP to 10-15w I believe and it really helped boost performance.

[GoodBytes]

57 minutes ago, Sierra Fox said:

a full version of windows 10? not S? is this the beginning of a new CPU manufacturer in the desktop market?

Unless things changes, you are looking at full Windows 10.

Pro variant available as well!

[GoodBytes]

2 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

Well they could create different SKUs like the 850 running at 5w, 851 running at 10w and 852 running at 18w.

 

Totally up to them but I think a 10 or 15w SOC would be good. With Nvidia's Tegra lineup in the X1 they increased the TDP to 10-15w I believe and it really helped boost performance.

Usually, you want to start small. Having 1 chip ensures the best experience. Qualcomm can focus on 1 set of drivers, Microsoft can focus on 2x CPUs for official support (835 and this one, 850). Maybe later on, but so far, I think their goal is to ensure the best experience possible given the technology.

[Drak3]

Microsoft's really wanting to pull a loaded semi truck trailer with a crappy BMX bike.

[mynameisjuan]

While I am up for competition, this only makes it worse for the consumers. 

 

Devs have to choose what to develop for up front and, while getting better, its still shit in terms of programming for 2 or more OSes. Now its going to be choose OS and then choose architecture. 

 

I am all for ARM chips for laptops but I worry the app market is going to get worse requiring more and more hardware to get the app you want. 

[Doobeedoo]

Well, while I'm aware of target audience and that it's ARM and not x86 I'm still interested to see these devices. Like a dual-screen Windows ARM Surface like device.