Another Graphite Thermal Pad Test: Panasonic PGS

[T[]RK]

New Graphite sheet is discovered. It's made by Hitachi. It was used in new AMD Radeon VII (TIM model is TC-HM03).

 

Here is it's data sheets: http://www.hitachi-chem.co.jp/english/products/cc/026.html

[Saccaed]

No luck finding a supplier. Interesting though.

[Saccaed]

Switched to Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut for my main laptop(the one I've used in all testing). TLDR: 10C improvement on CPU, 5C gpu improvement with higher sustained clocks. I still will be using soft PGS on lesser setups or maybe the pad from thermal grizzly depending on the performance.

 

Performance with Soft PGS

 

Performance with liquid metal

[genexis_x]

Where can I buy those graphite thermal pads?

[T[]RK]

Back to topic.

 

I talk with Thermal Grizzly Support about Carbonaut

 

Quote

Hi, 
yes carbonaut first batch will be delivered to Caseking end of March / first week of april.

Kind regards
Eike

 

[T[]RK]

Here it is!

 

https://www.caseking.de/en/search?sSearch=Thermal+Grizzly+Carbonaut

 

Not in stock now, but there are some pictures of a box and material itself.

 

25 x 25 mm (GeForce RTX 2080) — €9,90;

32 x 32 mm (Intel LGA115x) — €9,90;

31 x 25 mm (GeForce RTX 2080 Ti) — €10,90;

38 x 38 mm (Intel LGA20xx и AMD AM4) — €12,90;

51 x 68 mm (AMD TR4) — €25,90.

[ImperialKnightErrant]

I just ordered both 0.2mm and 0.1mm versions of the Panasonic soft PGS from http://www.rs-online.com/.

 

I'm a little worried that the thinner version might not have enough volume to fill all the gaps between the IHS and cooler, IC must have chosen 0.2mm for a reason. I'll give it a go once I have them. 

 

For those who lap their IHS and coolers, the thinner version might provide better thermal transfer though.

 

 

[Saccaed]

For the thinner stuff it probably makes sense to cut the PGS in place then peel the plastic off. Delicacy will be needed no matter what method you use. For anyone that does IHS lapping I would love to see some before and after results. Clamping pressure makes quite a difference for Soft PGS. How much surface flatness will effect performance is an unknown for me.

[T[]RK]

In case you didn't saw yet. Science Studio got Carbonaut for review.

I will wait a review from der8auer anyway. I hope he will test not only on 95W i9-9900K, but also on something like 165W SkyLake X i9.

[Levy_Wilson]

I just got a sheet of EYG-S0909ZLX2. I cut it to 40x40mm and replaced the 40x40mm sheet of IC Graphite I had gotten for my Ryzen 2400g, OC'd to 3.8GHz and under a Cryorig H7 cooler. I actually think this performs better than the IC Graphite, they aren't exactly the same. On idle, my CPU temperature dips to as low as 31c. After stress testing with Prime95, it gets up to 69c. With the IC Graphite it was 32-70. I am by no means some kind of perfect tester, though. I am terrible at putting my Cryorig H7 on, so the sheet might not be on as good as it could be. I would like to see more tests done with Panasonic PGS types as well as this Carbonaut sheet, which I hope doesn't turn out to be just a rebranded industrial product like IC Graphite was.

[T[]RK]

If Thermal Grizzly do it (rebrand Panasonic Soft-PGS) - if will be simple scam - soft-PGS - is Graphite and Carbonaut is Carbon.

 

This diffirence is a key.

 

Back to topic:

 

I have idea\question, but it's really difficult for me to fully understand such technology. What if we try to use X-Y heat transfer of soft-PGS(or standard PGS) instead of Z heat transfer? How?

 

Usual use of this "pads\sheets" is just like any regular TIM - place it on IHS, add heatsink on top. Heat from bottom (IHS) go through TIM and finally to heatsink. What if we place "special" soft-PGS\PGS with shape like "L" (technology allow to manufacture it such way)? Bottom part of "L" contact with IHS and transfer heat to another side (not outer side, where heatsink is, but inner side) and on that side add heatsink. Probably still need to add regulat heatsink and fan, just to don't let CPU to fry.

 

And yeah, that way cooling system will have two heatsinks and two CPU fans. Something similar to Prolimatech Genesis.

 

I can make a picture to better explanation of idea.

[T[]RK]

Just now, James Evens said:

Do we now agree on that diamond isn't carbon?

Yes. And more then that - we have proofs!

[Saccaed]

At minimum, the flexibility displayed by Carbonaut is completely different from Panasonic Soft PGS. Will be interesting to see what if any conductive differences between Carbonaut and Soft PGS exist.

 

8 hours ago, T[]RK said:

I have idea\question, but it's really difficult for me to fully understand such technology. What if we try to use X-Y heat transfer of soft-PGS(or standard PGS) instead of Z heat transfer? How?

 

Usual use of this "pads\sheets" is just like any regular TIM - place it on IHS, add heatsink on top. Heat from bottom (IHS) go through TIM and finally to heatsink. What if we place "special" soft-PGS\PGS with shape like "L" (technology allow to manufacture it such way)? Bottom part of "L" contact with IHS and transfer heat to another side (not outer side, where heatsink is, but inner side) and on that side add heatsink. Probably still need to add regulat heatsink and fan, just to don't let CPU to fry.

 

And yeah, that way cooling system will have two heatsinks and two CPU fans. Something similar to Prolimatech Genesis.

 

I can make a picture to better explanation of idea.

For my laptop I've tested heat pipes covered cold plate to fins with PGS backed thermal tape and noticed ~2C improvement. I'm not sure what's going on specifically. I tested the configuration thinking along similar lines, trying to make use of the x y conductivity. It would not surprise me if the large contact surface transmits heat more efficiently than the die to cold plate, small surface, high compression configuration.

 

I think exploiting the x y conduction in die to cold plate configurations is going to have limited use for desktops. In laptops I can see using PGS tape and PGS thermal tape being used to enhance stock cooling. Laptops are interesting because simple things like transmitting heat to the chassis and panels can have a significant cooling effect. A lot of newer laptops are using PGS tape in specific areas like monitor bezels to spread out component heat, and around batteries to spread battery heat to the laptop chassis. I have a feeling that spreading CPU GPU heat to the chassis especially combined with a cooling fan pad below could drop temps another ~2C. Phones have similar configurations where PGS is used to spread component heat.

[ImperialKnightErrant]

Just did testing with my rig using both 100 and 200 µm versions of the Panasonic soft PGS. Both didn't work for me. Stressed tested using OCCT and both maxed out around the 5 minute mark, while the paste I usually use (Arctic MX-4) had no issue running the test for an hour. Not sure if it's my AIO (ID-cooling Frostflow) not giving enough mounting pressure, as the conductiveness of the PGS goes up with mounting pressure.

[Saccaed]

That's an interesting result. I'm having trouble finding images of the mounting configuration for that AIO. Is the way it's mounted obviously light on mounting pressure?

[ImperialKnightErrant]

The spacers provided ensures a fixed distance from the cold plate to the motherboard, which I guess is to prevent over tightening. I've already tightened it all the way down. The only way I can increase the mounting pressure is to find alternative spacers. 

 

In the mean time, I've actually found some generic branded graphite pad that's 0.5mm thick but has a Z-axis conductivity of 13 W/(mK). I just got them today, will test them out to see how they perform. Hopefully the thickness may mitigate some of the mounting pressure issue.

[T[]RK]

O.C.C.T save results in nice graphs, so i decided to share my results too.

 

Core #1 is hottest of all cores. Test duration was 5 minutes with 1 minute of idle period at beggining. I set in settings max cores temp 100°C.

Also, this test was run with ThrottleStop with enabled BD Prochot option. It will not allow hot GPU (more then 52°C) to force CPU throttle and fixed CPU frequency at 3.2 GHz for all cores. Obviously such frequency is too much.

 

 

If i lower CPU frequency on 200 MHz then i may complete 5 minute test. Temp of this core is high anyway - 99°C. Lowest core temp was on core #0 - 90°C.

It's maybe silicone lottery OR bad contact with soft-PGS.

[T[]RK]

Here is another test, but with small mod to cooling system of my laptop (i called it Kapton Mod):

 

 

Heatpipe of GPU go throught CPU heatsink base and there is possible chance that GPU heatpipe MAY transfer heat to CPU heatsink base OR CPU heatpipe. So i isolated (wrapped) GPU heatpipe in one layer of Kapton tape to block any heat transfer at this area.

 

Conditions:

1. Cold start of laptop;

2. Running ThrottleStop with BD Prochot enabled and set multiplier x32 on all cores (if GPU temp will be more then 52°C - CPU will NOT throttle);

3. Running O.C.C.T Test;

4. Room temp.: 27°C.

 

Max core #1 temp was 97°C (so, lower on 2°C AND higher frequency on 200 MHz). Lowest core temp was 89°C (core #0 and core #3). Again, lower on 1°C AND higher frequency on 200 MHz.

GPU temp also lower on 2°C.

 

I runned test when i did mod (few days ago), but got Error on CPU #1. Only today's attempt everything was fine, i don't know why.

[Saccaed]

Interesting test. If you have some thermal tape(like whats on GPU memory), you might try spanning the heat pipes. I had good results when I tried to increase the thermal transfer from CPU to GPU. For games the mod I did is likely a toss up, but for renders and other CPU intensive applications the effort put towards closing the temperature gap between CPU and GPU has been worthwhile.

 

An aside, I've been meaning to pick up some thermal insulating tape to test another idea, wrapping heat pipes with silicone thermal tape, then wrapping the wrap with thermal insulating tape. I'm wondering if some configuration might increase the efficiency of the heat pipe in pushing heat to the cooling fins.

[T[]RK]

This is how package look's like. Bag and flat box inside with instruction and certificate of origin.

 

Finally some actual tests of Thermal Grizzly Carbonaut:

 

Source: https://vonguru.fr/2019/05/13/test-carbonaut-thermal-grizzly-flop-ou-bonne-surprise-partie-1/

 

Very similar to IC Graphite.

 

So, look's like our next stop will be... CNT array - yes, carbon nanotubes arrays. Single walls, Multi walls (whatever). I saw their price... not in next 10 years ($450-900 for small piece). VERY expensive.

[Mixi]

maybe this is the answer for less consistence result of the test you all did in laptop and the pressure factor affecting your result.

 

Just my two cent so maybe more reliable result can get from dekstop as heatsink only touch one surface (eg: Proc).

 

IC Graphite Pads! NOT For Most Laptops, here's why!

 

Sorry i don't know how to put YouTube link in here.

 

I have question here, since Panasonic PGS has 3 type of sheets; EYGS - PGS only, EYGA - Taping & EYGE - Thermally conductive elastomer, if PGS-type is use, can it ""fill" the gap between heat sink and component?

“PGS” Graphite Sheets.pdf

[Saccaed]

Compressible type PGS (EYGS) is what you want for die to heat sink contact. The other types do not perform well for die to heat sync applications. In theory the thinnest sheet of EYGS that conforms well is what will perform best, in practice a thicker sheet will perform more consistently across applications.

 

Conformity and pressure are going to be the focus of any application. In my desktop setup, the mounting is easy to modify by inserting additional shimming washers to increase mounting pressure. Compared to my laptop, the desktop reduced temps double from pressure alone(could also mean that the desktop cooler had lesser compression to begin with). That video goes over well issues that laptop applications will have to consider. Between my two laptops, one has a much better cooler and motherboard design which allowed for easy repeated modification. My lesser laptop could be tinkered with as well, but any tinkering likely would take 3x longer per modification. My easier to work on laptop still required a fair amount of procedure discovery to achieve repeatable improved results.

[T[]RK]

11 hours ago, Mixi said:

I have question here, since Panasonic PGS has 3 type of sheets; EYGS - PGS only, EYGA - Taping & EYGE - Thermally conductive elastomer, if PGS-type is use, can it ""fill" the gap between heat sink and component?

“PGS” Graphite Sheets.pdf

Incorrect!

 

EYG - Pyrolytic Graphite Sheet (PGS Only);

EYGA - Taping PGS (with adhesive or Insulation + adhesive or high heat resistance);

EYGE - Thermally conductive elastomer (semi-sealing material - SSM);

EYGS - soft-PGS (Compressible Type) later re-named in "GraphiteTIM";

EYGT - Graphite-PAD.

 

For our use best fit only EYG (PGS Only) and EYGS (soft-PGS\GraphiteTIM), since they offer best (of all products) thermal conductivity.

 

Unfortuanly, it can't fill micro gaps like usual thermal gease do it. I think problem with PGS\soft-PGS density. It have good thermal conductivity (26 W/m*K for 100um PGS-Only), but low density (0,85g/cm3). If we look Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut there is 12,5 W/m*K and 3,7 g/cm3 OR Conductonaut - 73 W/m*K and 6,24 g/cm3. If you look results from Carbonaut review - there interesting thing: less density - higher temp (mostly). So, we need something that have both: very high thermal conductivity (W/m*K) and very high density (g/cm3). First will help to fast trasfer heat, another - fill smallest micro gaps between CPU\GPU die and heatsink.

 

I even starting to think, that *CNT array is a bit extreme variant, need to step back. Close to current best solutions - LMs, maybe start from adding liquid *CNT in them to boost thermal conductivity. I saw interesting Foxconn patent where they combined LM and *CNT Array. LM was filled inside array to fill all gaps, but it requied special lab equipment and methods (PVD or CVD). Regular user can't do it by himself, also he can't buy it - very expensive and will be made for order with waiting period.

 

That way solution may sound crazy - custom made LM (DIY Liquid Metal) + test addition or complete new formula... maybe same Galistan (In + Ga +Sn), but made of nano particles to boost density.

[T[]RK]

One more thought to lower temp on CPU is to focus on specific die zone.

 

Here is die scheme cores image i founded in web: Ivy Bridge die.

In my Lenovo Y500 iGPU (processor graphics) is disabled, so i need more pressure at cores zone. I don't know from what's side to count cores (left to right or right to left) to locate my hottest core (core #1).

 

And here is picture of CPU itself with die scheme (not made by me).

[Saccaed]

I think you will find it hard to do much better than die perpendicular mounting pressure. Maybe if the mounting center point can be shifted and the perpendicularness remains unchanged, some gains may happen. For example, differing screw tension tends to create a gradient of conductivity when done in a way that is biased for a corner or edge.