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Beer_Nontitju

Outraged by the implementation of Women in Battlefield 5

SansVarnic

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This topic is a contested issue so lets remain civil with this discussion.

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1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

It feels out of place and forced, and I think most people feel that way.

The thing is, a lot of people such as myself - a battlefield fan - didn't care and it didn't felt out of place and forced. Why is that?
The discussion is in WHY does it feel out of place and forced for some people?

I explained it in my post and I'm gonna develop it explicitly again because there are various psychological phenomenons at work here and I could cite some for you:
1. Status Quo bias: people prefer when things remain the same. In BF5's case, they obviously changed something
2. Norms & Values: The discomfort of transgressed norms, not only that, but the expression of it. In fact, a during a very recent study of the university of ULB (I assisted to the lecture last month) the discrimination of LGBT people at work: in short, there was a theory that could be inducted with the data gathered: People that transgress the norm are not discriminated because they transgressed it, but because they show that they transgressed.

For instance, you get records of such conversations: "I hate muslim/gay people!" -"Well, I'm actually muslim/gay" -"Oh, you're okay because we don't notice it"
In case of BF5, they flagantry transgressed the norm of by presenting a woman as the new face of the game
3. The cognitive dissonance: which is the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes: It's an extremely strong psychological state in which people won't accept their own incoherence (it's actually part of a defense mechanism to preserve self-integrity and thereby mental sanity), that's why even the most developed arguments won't even work.

No one wants to be sexist because it's socially undesirable. I believe many of the people complaining about the woman in the game also believe in equality between genders and women's rights. I believe they do not mean to be demeaning to women in any way. BUT the incoherence I exposed in the sole argument brought by those people which complains about historical inaccuracy (...):

1. Battlefield never pretended (in any game) to be historically accurate
2. There are many other bigger inaccuracies that didn't bother people that much

(...) shows that, the outrage may actually be (intended or not) sexism deflected (by the cognitive dissonance) behind the curtain of "historical accuracy". Because they ofcourse don't mean to be sexist, but they need to find a thing ("historical inaccuracy) to blame their discomfort on.
 

I'm sure there are many other phenomenons such as the lack of the ability of decentring which means being able to step outside of one's own truisms, cognitive scheme and preconceived, culturally anchored thoughts and ideas.

All in all, the status quo bias, norm&values, the cognitive dissonance are the main psychological phenomenons (I could observe in the people commenting against of the implementation of women in the game) that could explain their discomfort and the reason why they oppose this change. 

 

This is my last comment for this thread.

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2 minutes ago, MMKing said:

50 000 000 to 80 000 000 people died. Millions of people still remember this war, million of people still live with injuries related to the war. EA is using, by far the deadliest conflict in human history, as set dressing, with no consideration or respect to historical accuracy i might add.

 

I'm not just referring to the presence of a seemingly British woman on the battle field. Almost everything about the trailer is in very bad taste in my opinion. The second world is now represented as an arcade shooter.

Well, shit  I might as well not play COD or Wolfenstein.  Too many inaccuracies in a WW2 setting.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
14 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

EA is marketing it as a ''immersive WW2 ''

Aaaaaand I repeat myself again: Immersive does not mean historically accurate.
They can immerse you with high graphical fidelity or high quality sound design, it does not mean historically accurate.

I repeat for the last time, because you guys keep making the same arguments over and over that were invalidated over and over: Immersive does not mean historically accurate. If you interpreted it this way, it's your problem.

If the integration of a female character is the only inaccuracy among other numerous massive historical inaccuracies that bothers you and if a simple female soldier is what it takes to pull you out of the immersion, then your opinion is sexist no matter how you look at it.


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13 minutes ago, MMKing said:

50 000 000 to 80 000 000 people died. Millions of people still remember this war, million of people still live with injuries related to the war. EA is using, by far the deadliest conflict in human history, as set dressing, with no consideration or respect to historical accuracy i might add.

 

I'm not just referring to the presence of a seemingly British woman on the battle field. Almost everything about the trailer is in very bad taste in my opinion. The second world is now represented as an arcade shooter.

 

Edit: Some 800 000 Soviet Women served in the Red army in nearly all functions. Including front line infantry, pilots, tank crew and perhaps most famously as snipers. Polish women played a significant role in the Polish resistance.

There were plenty of opportunity to represent historical female combatants, without pandering to western feminism.

Need for speed MW/UG 1 + 2= you hit civilians like a sociopath throughout the entire game and your car never gets totaled, yet I don't see people complaining about lack of realism.

 

GTA series: you die and you spawn over and over, get busted and the same happens, yet no one complains about lack of realism in that regard.

 

Counter Strike: Terrorists are loosely based on real stereotypes but they all speak with an American accent, no one complains about lack of realism.

 

Battlefield 5 touched a nerve as of late with the "anti sjw" crowd, that's all I can conclude.

 

At the end of the day, either the game is fun or it isn't, the rest is purely secondary. 

 

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On 5/24/2018 at 8:25 AM, SC2Mitch said:

Literally people moaned on the BF forums about the lack of female soldiers, then this happens now people are crying and putting it behind a "political agenda" which is a load of bs. EA aren't the best company in the world, sure, but I think they've done some good worth this. But remember kids, NEVER PRE ORDER VIDEO GAMES NOR BELIEVE IN THE UNREAL HYPE, IT'S NMS ALL OVER AGAIN. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV69DyOuzbE

 

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I enjoy historically accurate shooters personally, I really enjoyed Verdun as a WW1 shooter. Battlefield 1 was fun as well, but way less historically accurate. Still fun to play, but I would have been happier if it had some more accuracy, particularly in the trench warfare gameplay.

 

In my opinion, female soldiers is NOT the worst historical inaccuracy we saw in the trailer for Battlefield V.

 

What bothered me most about the trailer was the "we are a badass band of misfits shooting our way through Nazi scum" aspect of it. What bothered me was the apparent heavy leaning on "cosmetic customization" instead of just having everyone wear standard uniforms.

 

This seems more like: Destiny 2: Battlefield WW2 edition, or even "Battlefield: Inglorious Bastards edition" rather than a successor to Battlefield 1942.

 

To me, these kinds of depictions of WW2, with cosmetics, and "hey we are having badass fun" kind of make light of the real suffering and historic tragedy of WW2, which really rubs me the wrong way.

 

You could argue that any video game depiction of a real war does this, but in a game like Verdun, or even Battlefield 1942, you can take war seriously. You really feel it would have been awful to be at war. The trailer to Battlefield V made me feel like they are making light of WW2, which is a slippery slope IMO.

 

Let's hope the game ends up being very different from the trailer.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

Still can't believe how devastating the S-51 used to be in WOT before the great rebalance.

 

4 hours ago, GoldenLag said:

SU 14-1 had the same gun with more ammo, better accuracy, better reload at the cost of bigger profile and lower mobility. that thing was even more fun

 

4 hours ago, GoldenLag said:

One shotting tiger 2s with AP....... It was a great time. Why fire anything but AP in that thing? (it actually was cheaper)

 

These days the best artillery gun is on the deathstar, and it doesnt even fire in artillery mode

You two make me sad.

 

 

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Posted · Original PosterOP
2 minutes ago, maartendc said:

I enjoy historically accurate shooters personally, I really enjoyed Verdun as a WW1 shooter. Battlefield 1 was fun as well, but way less historically accurate. Still fun to play, but I would have been happier if it had some more accuracy, particularly in the trench warfare gameplay.

 

In my opinion, female soldiers is NOT the worst historical inaccuracy we saw in the trailer for Battlefield V.

 

What bothered me most about the trailer was the "we are a badass band of misfits shooting our way through Nazi scum" aspect of it. What bothered me was the apparent heavy leaning on "cosmetic customization" instead of just having everyone wear standard uniforms.

 

This seems more like: Destiny 2: Battlefield WW2 edition, or even "Battlefield: Inglorious Bastards edition" rather than a successor to Battlefield 1942.

 

To me, these kinds of depictions of WW2, with cosmetics, and "hey we are having badass fun" kind of make light of the real suffering and historic tragedy of WW2, which really rubs me the wrong way.

 

You could argue that any video game depiction of a real war does this, but in a game like Verdun, or even Battlefield 1942, you can take war seriously. You really feel it would have been awful to be at war. The trailer to Battlefield V made me feel like they are making light of WW2, which is a slippery slope IMO.

 

Let's hope the game ends up being very different from the trailer.

 

 

What about battlefield bad company 2 which is reputed as one of the best campaigns in Battlefield history although being lighthearted?
What about Wolfenstein?
What about Aldo's squad in Inglorious Bastards?

Do you feel the same way about all those?


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4 minutes ago, Beer_Nontitju said:

What about battlefield bad company 2 which is reputed as one of the best campaigns in Battlefield history although being lighthearted?
What about Wolfenstein?
What about Aldo's squad in Inglorious Bastards?

Do you feel the same way about all those?

they don't, cause bj is a man


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Posted · Original PosterOP
4 minutes ago, Sauron said:

they don't, cause bj is a man

Well, yes, You saw the point I was making.
The only disturbing variable is obviously the woman, but it's always masked under that historical inaccuracy pretext.

It's absurd, everybody is an avid historian now?


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23 minutes ago, Beer_Nontitju said:

What about battlefield bad company 2 which is reputed as one of the best campaigns in Battlefield history although being lighthearted?
What about Wolfenstein?
What about Aldo's squad in Inglorious Bastards?

Do you feel the same way about all those?

Never played any of the Bad Company games, so cannot really comment.

 

Wolfenstein, yes it is making light of WW2, BUT: they go so far over the top with zombies, paranormal activity, etc. etc. that it becomes such a caricature, it is okay again. You are not supposed to take it seriously, and that is clear.  Same with Inglorious Bastards, they make such a parody (shooting Hitler in the face repeatedly) that nobody will mistake it for something historically accurate.

 

The real problem is: Battlefield V seems to be in that middle ground where they pass it off as a somewhat realistic depiction of WW2, while infusing it with so many non-accurate elements as to make light of it.c

 

Battlefield V seems to want it both ways: They talk about how their "war stories" mode gives you a good sense of how the war really was, what kind of incredible "stories" were in the war (yes they actually said this in interviews after the reveal), but then they make light of it with cosmetics and "fun badass action" on the other hand. 

 

I either want Verdun/Battlefield 1942 (total realistic) or Wolfenstein (totally over the top parody). This middle ground rubs me the wrong way and is realistic enough that kids will think that is actually how the war was. Kind of rewriting history. Which is dangerous and not cool.

 

(and I am not talking about having women in it, I couldnt care less, I actually like that they had some female scout class in BF1).

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18 minutes ago, Beer_Nontitju said:

Well, yes, You saw the point I was making.
The only disturbing variable is obviously the woman, but it's always masked under that historical inaccuracy pretext.

It's absurd, everybody is an avid historian now?

At the end of the day, if you want to believe people are really only upset about there being a woman in the Battlefield V trailer, I cannot convince you. And it is definitely possible that this is the real reason why some or many people are upset about it.

 

I can only say that for myself, I was disappointed in the trailer because it was like a Michael Bay or Transformers movie with a WW2 skin on it. Besides not being historically accurate, as a fan of Verdun,  BF1942, etc. it just seems like a very different type of game, and I am not looking for that. Also from a gameplay perspective.

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32 minutes ago, maartendc said:

What bothered me was the apparent heavy leaning on "cosmetic customization" instead of just having everyone wear standard uniforms.

Gotta make up that loot box money somehow. I want 17th century pirates. In fact, go the whole hog and license Barbossa and Sparrow from Disney.

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2 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

Gotta make up that loot box money somehow. I want 17th century pirates. In fact, go the whole hog and license Barbossa and Sparrow from Disney.

Sadly, yes.

 

I would prefer if they did the Battlefield 1 model: paid Season pass, and have some cosmetics, but keep it very light. The cosmetics in Battlefield 1 were only on the guns, and even then not very noticeable. The uniforms were all standard. Not a fluorescent "death dealer" logo on the soldier jackets 9_9

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I'm part of the people that are just disappointed by the trailer in general. There being a women is the least of my concern. The trailer was just a jumble of mess.

 

There was no iconic music to build up tension (present in basically all previous battlefield trailers), it was incoherent, and gave us zero gameplay footage. What's worse was they tried to use cinematic scenes with an HUD overlayed as if it was in-game gameplay. What on earth were they thinking...

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37 minutes ago, crystal6tak said:

I'm part of the people that are just disappointed by the trailer in general. There being a women is the least of my concern. The trailer was just a jumble of mess.

 

There was no iconic music to build up tension (present in basically all previous battlefield trailers), it was incoherent, and gave us zero gameplay footage. What's worse was they tried to use cinematic scenes with an HUD overlayed as if it was in-game gameplay. What on earth were they thinking...

Agreed.

 

Here is the list of things that annoyed me in the trailer:

 

- Jackets with fluo lettering saying "death dealer"

- Blue face paint?

- Jeeps falling out of the sky for no apparent reason

- explosions, explosions explosions

- more explosions

- 1 squad seemingly taking on the entire German army?

- hooks for hands? Comon, you would be sent home or to a hospital, not in the front lines.

- complete chaos, can't even tell how any of this would translate into gameplay.

 

I have to say, Battlefield 1's trailer was also pretty over the top, showing the horses, behemoths, etc. The biggest difference is that in this trailer they crammed too much action into 1 scene. Let's hope the trailer is not a reflection of the final product.

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2 hours ago, Hunter259 said:

You two make me sad.

 

 

215B 183 best arty NA. Pls don't take my HESH.

did you even play  during the great age of fv 215b (183)?

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4 hours ago, EPENEX said:

If Battlefield 5 was a successor to Battlefield 4 and took place shortly in the future and they decided to have female characters, I wouldn't care. I was actually kinda confused as to why Battlefield 4 didn't have a female character, you'd think all these modern Battlefield's would have at least one female. For them to add a female character in a setting that doesn't historically make sense is just SJW pandering. It ruins the game like how BF1 had semi-auto weapons everywhere. I was really hoping for a modern battlefield, but instead we get this shit. That's the third Battlefield in a row I won't be buying.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_World_War_II


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5 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

did you even play  during the great age of fv 215b (183)?

I loved it before the speed nerf. Took forever to get my 3 marks in that RNG bucket

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13 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

I loved it before the speed nerf. Took forever to get my 3 marks in that RNG bucket

im talking pre pen-nerf and HD model update

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3 hours ago, Beer_Nontitju said:

It's absurd, everybody is an avid historian now?

It isn't that at all, others and I have explained tons of things wrong with the trailer but all you've done is ignore it just to accuse people of being "sexist" to keep the thread going in circles because we aren't accepting all the COD copy bs EA keeps shoving down our throats. I'm disappointed in the trailer overall and will wait for some actual gameplay footage and reviews from people that aren't being paid off by EA to give it a positive spin.

And it seems more like a lot of hardcore battlefield fans would rather have a game even with a tiny bit of overdone cliche'ed play like allies easily beat the axis powers rather than history being torn apart and re-written in a overly cinematic sense that casual players are likely going to believe it for fact and just to appease certain groups that get offended from everything yet don't even play video games.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
14 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

-snip- 

I think it's sexism overlapped by a cognitive dissonance. The latter deflects the first into incoherent excuses such as concern for history.

 

I also think it's also the need for affiliation, so people jump on the band wagon.


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53 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

did you even play  during the great age of fv 215b (183)?

No and it makes me sad. I played on a friends account when it had 275 and did like 5 or 6k with it. I like mine now that I have it but it's definitely not as insane.


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BF5 trailer was not as over the top in terms of historical innaccuracy. By that i mean everything shown in the movie excisted in some way. Either in prototype or as actual things that happened. 

 

Women, prostetics, and so fourth excisted. If you use that argument: " it was rare and one offs"

 

Well have fun in late world war 2 on the allied front. A lot of planes never saw a single interceptor. 

 

Realistic isnt what battlefield is or will be. They are within the realm of possibility for their timeline. And if you want more realism. Play "post scriptum". 

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