New push for 'Right to Repair' bill underway in New York

[MEC-777]

This topic strikes close to my heart as a hard-core DIY'er. Certain companies (namely, Apple) in the tech industry have been shifting towards and carrying out questionably unethical business practices which has had a significant negative impact on customers and the problem of e-waste. The whole situation with LMG and their Mac Pro that Apple refuses to fix, is just one example.  

 

Louis Rossmann, a YouTuber who has been quite vocal in calling out and showing the many problems with such products, has put out a video today interviewing a new team who are determined to pass a bill and legislate the 'right to repair'. I don't have a quote for this news piece as the source is a video, but it's pretty clear this is becoming a major problem and more and more customers are starting to become more vocal about how they feel towards such business practices. 

 

Source: 

Edit* Additional source and home website of this new movement: https://repair.org/

 

Personally, this is a big issue that needs to be addressed. The "if it's broken, throw it away and buy a new one" mentality needs to die. The design choices (resulting in a product that fails and cannot be fixed) and flat out refusal to fix what should otherwise be fixable by these companies, should be illegal, IMO. And Apple isn't the only company doing this.

 

@LinusTech @CPotter @nicklmg

 

[Guest The Viking]

Just finished watching the video actually.

 

I don't even live in the US, here things are getting pretty tough for companies with some countries pushing legislation forcing manufacturers to allow some specific repairs *cough cough apple slowing down batteries for planned obsolescence cough cough*

[Cheezdoodlez]

20 minutes ago, The Viking said:

Just finished watching the video actually.

 

I don't even live in the US, here things are getting pretty tough for companies with some countries pushing legislation forcing manufacturers to allow some specific repairs *cough cough apple slowing down batteries for planned obsolescence cough cough*

Slowing down batteries? Nope. 

 

Slowing down the phone because the battery is dying to prevent unexpected shutdown? Yes. 

[Sakkura]

27 minutes ago, Kumaresh said:

What's the use of legislating additional bills when the FTC seems to be taking these violations seriously now ? But I guess overarching practices in manufacturing by companies can't be easily modified by the FTC....

The FTC is only dealing with the warranty void stickers, not the wider issue.

[Guest The Viking]

21 minutes ago, Cheezdoodlez said:

Slowing down batteries? Nope. 

 

Slowing down the phone because the battery is dying to prevent unexpected shutdown? Yes. 

without telling the customer?

 

yes ✓

[Silentprototipe]

Brought to you personally by Louis Rossman  

 

I feel bad for this bit of news as the end of GPP is going to take steam away from this . This is equally as important dammit!  

[Dabombinable]

2 hours ago, Silentprototipe said:

Brought to you personally by Louis Rossman  

 

I feel bad for this bit of news as the end of GPP is going to take steam away from this . This is equally as important dammit!  

Unfortunately, #fnvidia isn't as effective as #fappple.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

4 hours ago, Sakkura said:

The FTC is only dealing with the warranty void stickers, not the wider issue.

True but, at least, it's a good beginning.

[AresKrieger]

3 hours ago, Silentprototipe said:

This is equally as important dammit!  

Honestly its more important, GPP realistically doesn't matter much in the grand scheme, this has serious legal ramifications some of which are great some less so.

 

I'm of the opinion that you should no be forced to provide parts but a company should not be allowed to make device inoperable due to them being repaired by a 3rd party, in essence the industry should be more like the auto repair industry (of a few years ago )

[orbitalbuzzsaw]

1 minute ago, AresKrieger said:

Honestly its more important, GPP realistically doesn't matter much in the grand scheme, this has serious legal ramifications some of which are great some less so.

 

I'm of the opinion that you should no be forced to provide part but a company should not be allowed to make device inoperable due to them being repaired by a 3rd party, in essence the industry should be more like the auto repair industry (of a few years ago )

Agreed. User repair/upgradability is much more important than most people realize.

[Sakkura]

1 hour ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

True but, at least, it's a good beginning.

Absolutely. I just mean it isn't enough on its own, right to repair bills are still worth fighting for.

[Carclis]

On 05/05/2018 at 7:11 AM, AresKrieger said:

Honestly its more important, GPP realistically doesn't matter much in the grand scheme, this has serious legal ramifications some of which are great some less so.

It's quite difficult to compare and say one issue is more important than the other since they both revolve around consumer choice. GPP raises questions over whether consumers have limited choice in what they can purchase, and the "right to repair" push questions whether consumer choice over what people do with their devices is being restricted.

I do hope this push is successful though and I look forward to it having ramifications worldwide.

[mr moose]

On 5/5/2018 at 3:04 AM, Kumaresh said:

What's the use of legislating additional bills when the FTC seems to be taking these violations seriously now ? But I guess overarching practices in manufacturing by companies can't be easily modified by the FTC....

As far as I am aware, the FTC loses all it's teeth as soon as a company includes such terms in it's service/product sales contract that exclude third party repair etc.  This is where the major issue with the net neutrality repeal  fell in a heap,  because the argument that the FTC can regulate unfair service shaping was flawed in that if as ISP agreement included throttling of specific traffic then that was not considered unfair trade practices. 

[MEC-777]

Minor update on this topic. But honestly, how is this company as popular as it is?

 

 

[Master Disaster]

It's worth adding this video into the mix...

 

 

 

Basically you've got the FTC, an independent agency saying Apple should be allowing users to repair devices while you've also got immigration and customs, a real government angency and under the orders of Apple, actively ceasing imports of Apple parts to enable repairs outside of AASPs.

 

You really think the FTC are gonna tell ICE not to cease imports anymore?

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

It's worth adding this video into the mix...

 

 

 

Basically you've got the FTC, an independent agency saying Apple should be allowing users to repair devices while you've also got immigration and customs, a real government angency and under the orders of Apple, actively ceasing imports of Apple parts to enable repairs outside of AASPs.

 

You really think the FTC are gonna tell ICE not to cease imports anymore?

There is a big difference between importing counterfeit goods and right to repair.  What the FTC has said regarding warranty stickers is not at odds with import laws regarding products containing unlicensed IP.

 

 

 

Also What has happened  to Louis?  every video he seems to be getting more and more childish.  I have a very hard time taking anyone who is facetious or mocks people in that exaggerated way seriously.    He never used to do that did he? 

[Dabombinable]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

There is a big difference between importing counterfeit goods and right to repair.  What the FTC has said regarding warranty stickers is not at odds with import laws regarding products containing unlicensed IP.

 

 

 

Also What has happened  to Louis?  every video he seems to be getting more and more childish.  I have a very hard time taking anyone who is facetious or mocks people in that exaggerated way seriously.    He never used to do that did he? 

I think he's just getting tired of covering Apple and their fuck ups.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Dabombinable said:

I think he's just getting tired of covering Apple and their fuck ups.

Maybe,  I never used to have an issue watching his videos, but of late regardless of the message,  he comes across as self important.  Sometimes he's even blatantly wrong.

 

 

[ARikozuM]

How about letting people repair devices by... wait for it... supplying the first-party parts [to the general public]? 

 

Not every city has an Apple-certified repairer. 

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

How about letting people repair devices by... wait for it... supplying the first-party parts [to the general public]? 

 

Not every city has an Apple-certified repairer. 

It's not that hard is it.   Besides making money from selling genuine parts they could also make money from selling licenses to manufacture certain parts too.  I'm afraid Apple has the same 19th century mindset as Bolton/watt and edison.

[Master Disaster]

47 minutes ago, mr moose said:

There is a big difference between importing counterfeit goods and right to repair.  What the FTC has said regarding warranty stickers is not at odds with import laws regarding products containing unlicensed IP.

 

 

 

Also What has happened  to Louis?  every video he seems to be getting more and more childish.  I have a very hard time taking anyone who is facetious or mocks people in that exaggerated way seriously.    He never used to do that did he? 

There's a BIG difference between refurbished and counterfeit, a very big difference. A lot of the time repair shops keep screens with broken glass then ship them off to China to have the glass replaced, these screens are routinely ceased and destroyed which is basically theft. They belong to the repair shop and they can do whatever they want with them, ICE have ZERO reason to be taking them away and yet they do it anyway. Why? Because Apple have deep pockets and friends in very high places.

 

There's reports of ICE ceasing and destroying GENUINE Apple screens at the borders, not refurbished, not counterfeit, genuine bonified Apple screens and the government ceased them without giving any reason as to why they did it.

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

There's a BIG difference between refurbished and counterfeit, a very big difference. A lot of the time repair shops keep screens with broken glass then ship them off to China to have the glass replaced, these screens are routinely ceased and destroyed which is basically theft. They belong to the repair shop and they can do whatever they want with them, ICE have ZERO reason to be taking them away and yet they do it anyway. Why? Because Apple have deep pockets and friends in very high places.

 

There's reports of ICE ceasing and destroying GENUINE Apple screens at the borders, not refurbished, not counterfeit, genuine bonified Apple screens and the government ceased them without giving any reason as to why they did it.

You are still conflating two issues.  If border control is destroying products without due process then that is one issue, recipients of said products not being able to prove they are legitimate products is another issue and neither of these are related to right to repair. 

[Master Disaster]

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You are still conflating two issues.  If border control is destroying products without due process then that is one issue, recipients of said products not being able to prove they are legitimate products is another issue and neither of these are related to right to repair. 

So how exactly are non certified repair centers, or owners, supposed to repair products if Apple are destroying stock as it enters America?

 

Of course it's related, no replacement parts, no repair for Mr Joe Smith unless he goes to Apple or an AASP.

 

Right to repair only works if replacement parts are available.

[ARikozuM]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You are still conflating two issues.  If border control is destroying products without due process then that is one issue, recipients of said products not being able to prove they are legitimate products is another issue and neither of these are related to right to repair. 

Apple is having old, first-party parts (I believe you two are discussing the screens) destroyed. If a screen's glass is cracked, but otherwise in working order, the repair center is having the glass replaced for repurposing. The glass is inconsequential in its replacement as the digitizer is what holds value. Destroying parts that are first-party is unethical when labeled as 'counterfeit'. You don't have to like Louis Rossman, but first-party parts have to be made available at an affordable cost (sans the Apple tax) so that we can make our systems work for longer leading to less e-waste. A repair shop going to this length is more telling of Apple's repair policy than it is about the repair shop. 

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

So how exactly are non certified repair centers, or owners, supposed to repair products if Apple are destroying stock as it enters America?

 

Of course it's related, no replacement parts, no repair for Mr Joe Smith unless he goes to Apple or an AASP.

 

Right to repair only works if replacement parts are available.

You can't undo centuries of precedent in IP/common law on grounds of right to repair.  The issue with not being able to work on your own stuff and not being allowed to import infringing goods are two separate issues.  Just because we feel one should be a right doesn't automatically make the other one an unacceptable condition.   This has to be addressed through consumer law, see my response to ARikozum below.

 

 

5 hours ago, ARikozuM said:

Apple is having old, first-party parts (I believe you two are discussing the screens) destroyed. If a screen's glass is cracked, but otherwise in working order, the repair center is having the glass replaced for repurposing. The glass is inconsequential in its replacement as the digitizer is what holds value. Destroying parts that are first-party is unethical when labeled as 'counterfeit'. You don't have to like Louis Rossman, but first-party parts have to be made available at an affordable cost (sans the Apple tax) so that we can make our systems work for longer leading to less e-waste. A repair shop going to this length is more telling of Apple's repair policy than it is about the repair shop. 

 

I don't disagree.  It absolutely is unethical, which means something needs to be done about that as a matter of justice.   The issue is where right to repair comes in.  There is big legal difference between the rights of consumers to repair and the rights of apple to not sell the parts.   I Personally think apple should be held to the same laws as in Australia:

By Australian law products must:

Quote

have spare parts and repair facilities available for a reasonable time after purchase unless you were told otherwise.

That is a matter of consumer law, but it is not precedent nor effectual enough to uproot IP law.   You can force a manufacturer to provide spare parts under consumer law, you cannot force them to permit the manufacture of infringing products.