Nintendo Switch not complient with USB-C

[Neowizard]

According to this Google+ post, it seems like the Switch engineers and designers almost went out of their ways to be incompatible with the USB-C specs.

 

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Good news: the +Innergie / +InnergieEurope / +Delta Electronics 45w charger is robust and works to power both the Switch and Switch Dock!
Bad news: the Nintendo Switch and Dock are chock full of USB-C protocol errors and flaws. See the attached.

 

The Switch and its dock apparently ignore some messages from connected chargers, pass whatever power voltages they care to regardless of what's available, invert roles between the Switch, the dock and the charger (e.g. the dock can, in theory, be charged by the Switch).

Some required behaviors are simply not implemented, and some are only partially implemented (e.g. accounting for self power usage when delivering power).

IMO, the worst part is capacitance levels out of spec. In some cases this can hurt other poorly designed USB-C devices connected to the Switch who might not expect this and are not shielded from the possible voltage levels.

 

Quote

* The dock does not properly discharge Vbus to vSafe0v within the set time. Although this isn't strictly necessary since the dock's external port isn't Dual-Role Power, it means there is excessive capacitance in the Vbus line. This is strictly regulated in the Type-C spec.

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* (5) The Switch tablet itself also has the excess capacitance on Vbus and vSafe0v time problem the dock has. This is a much greater concern since it is a "Dual-Role Power" device. (It can accept power or give power.) This vSafe0v delay problem causes significant Power-Role Swap issues with safe, compliant hardware that correctly checks for 0v before swapping power. It can take up to 2 minutes for the Switch to naturally discharge Vbus.

 

Why Nintendo?

[Mira Yurizaki]

25 minutes ago, Neowizard said:

Why Nintendo?

To keep things proprietary while using an existing connector of course :3

[suicidalfranco]

USB-C: great idea, terrible execution.

The one cable to rule them all crowd can all go suck a fat one. At least before of USB-C shit like this wouldn't happen:

Usb-c that only works as usb 2.0

Usb-c that only works as usb 3.0/1/2

Usb-c that includes usb 3 and dp

Usb-c that includes usb 3, dp and tb3

Usb-c Nintendo edition

Usb-c that does data and proprietary audio

Usb-c that does data and audio

 

How many more do we have to have?

 

[SpaceGhostC2C]

9 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

(...)

 

But, but... it's reversible... 

[suicidalfranco]

10 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

But, but... it's reversible... 

 

mmmmmhhhh.....

 

[dtaflorida]

Apple needs to get in on this USB-C and have their own USB-C devices that only work with MiFi certified USB-C cables. 

[suicidalfranco]

12 minutes ago, dtaflorida said:

Apple needs to get in on this USB-C and have their own USB-C devices that only work with MiFi certified USB-C cables. 

Every one should get their own USB-C ports that can only be used with their devices. This is how you drive innovation  

[Sniperfox47]

42 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

USB-C: great idea, terrible execution.

The one cable to rule them all crowd can all go suck a fat one. At least before of USB-C shit like this wouldn't happen:

Usb-c that only works as usb 2.0

Usb-c that only works as usb 3.0/1/2

Usb-c that includes usb 3 and dp

Usb-c that includes usb 3, dp and tb3

Usb-c Nintendo edition

Usb-c that does data and proprietary audio

Usb-c that does data and audio

 

How many more do we have to have?

 

There have been devices that have incorrectly implimented USB too. There have been devices that incorrectly implimented monoplug power connections (literally just a straight up 2-wire connector) ffs. Nintendo incorrectly implimenting it is dumb, but it's not anything against USB-C itself.

 

No, instead you just had USB-A that may work with 2.0, 3.0, 3.1gen1 or 3.1gen2. Your device may or may not have had another port for DisplayPort or HDMI which both required seperate cables even if it did have them. May have had Thunderbolt but likely didn't because nobody other than Apple really used thunderbolt.

 

None of the "issues" with USB-C are new issues it introduces, they just look a little different than they did before.

 

And who supposedly implimented proprietary audio? If you mean the Sony, Motorola, and other phones that support analogue audio it's a standard (but optional) part of the USB-C spec...

[Nowak]

tbh the USB-IF needs to get their asses into gear and begin requiring mandatory certification for any and all USB-C devices and cables, certifying that they meet the spec exactly.

 

I've also read that Apple's implementation of USB-C isn't spec-compliant either, drawing more power than what the spec calls for. And here I thought USB-C was meant to be universal, not so damn fragmented.

[Sniperfox47]

1 minute ago, Daring said:

tbh the USB-IF needs to get their asses into gear and begin requiring mandatory certification for any and all USB-C devices and cables, certifying that they meet the spec exactly.

 

I've also read that Apple's implementation of USB-C isn't spec-compliant either, drawing more power than what the spec calls for. And here I thought USB-C was meant to be universal, not so damn fragmented.

Ultimately that would cripple the ecosystem. Certification is expensive. Super expensive. And even when you do it there are issues that slip through the cracks. There have been recalls on products that successfully got through Apple MiFi. There have been issues with cables that got through USB certification. And even if they did require it, are they going to legally persue the Chinese companies that release cheap knockoff products anyways?

 

And no Apple's implimentation is not 100% correct either, but ultimately their laptops work fine with any Power Delivery 2.0 compliant charger. The issue right now is that a lot of the early chipsets weren't 100% compliant so the devices released with them weren't by default.

 

We're slowly starting to get to a stage where things are more and more correctly implimented. Ultimately it's no different than a bunch of the early USB 3.0 chipsets and the issues they had with USB 2.0 devices.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

4 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

Every one should get their own USB-C ports that can only be used with their devices. This is how you drive innovation  

I want my USB-C dongle that works as a USB-C to USB-C adapter. 

[Master Disaster]

So I wonder if this has anything to do with Miko docks bricking switches?

[GoodBytes]

I don't know.. to me, it indicates that the companies doing the dock did little to no research on how the Switch USB port works.

If it was found out the way it works, using electronic tools and knowing the protocol, how come a full company with team of engineers can't figure it out, or didn't notice what they are doing was wrong?

 

To me, they just went to China, found something that looks like that works with the Switch, and just designed the plastic shell around it, and barely tested anything. Rush products to capitalize on the market opportunity instead of making actual R&D, deeply test everything and doing a good job.

[Arika]

 

[Misanthrope]

10 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

USB-C: great idea, terrible execution.

The one cable to rule them all crowd can all go suck a fat one. At least before of USB-C shit like this wouldn't happen:

Usb-c that only works as usb 2.0

Usb-c that only works as usb 3.0/1/2

Usb-c that includes usb 3 and dp

Usb-c that includes usb 3, dp and tb3

Usb-c Nintendo edition

Usb-c that does data and proprietary audio

Usb-c that does data and audio

 

How many more do we have to have?

 

Now if we can only come up with a different name for each and every one, we could just maximize the shittiness.

[Notional]

I c what they did(n't) there.

[Sniperfox47]

2 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

I don't know.. to me, it indicates that the companies doing the dock did little to no research on how the Switch USB port works.

If it was found out the way it works, using electronic tools and knowing the protocol, how come a full company with team of engineers can't figure it out, or didn't notice what they are doing was wrong?

 

To me, they just went to China, found something that looks like that works with the Switch, and just designed the plastic shell around it, and barely tested anything. Rush products to capitalize on the market opportunity instead of making actual R&D, deeply test everything and doing a good job.

To be fair that's exactly what they did.

 

But also to be fair, the Chinese product they chose actually impliments the protocol far more properly than the switch and first party dock itself does.

 

So is it their fault for not matching Nintendo, or Nintendo's fault for butchering the spec?

[Master Disaster]

6 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

I don't know.. to me, it indicates that the companies doing the dock did little to no research on how the Switch USB port works.

If it was found out the way it works, using electronic tools and knowing the protocol, how come a full company with team of engineers can't figure it out, or didn't notice what they are doing was wrong?

 

To me, they just went to China, found something that looks like that works with the Switch, and just designed the plastic shell around it, and barely tested anything. Rush products to capitalize on the market opportunity instead of making actual R&D, deeply test everything and doing a good job.

It may be the entirely backwards scenario of the dock bricking the console because the dock IS following protocol while the console expects it NOT to be.

[Evanair]

2 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

It may be the entirely backwards scenario of the dock bricking the console because the dock IS following protocol while the console expects it NOT to be.

The brick isn't USB-C complaint either.  Mine (when I had a switch) would charge the switch just fine, but other USB devices couldn't charge off it at all, they wouldn't detect anything plugged into them.

[Mira Yurizaki]

21 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

USB-C: great idea, terrible execution.

The one cable to rule them all crowd can all go suck a fat one. At least before of USB-C shit like this wouldn't happen:

Usb-c that only works as usb 2.0

Usb-c that only works as usb 3.0/1/2

Usb-c that includes usb 3 and dp

Usb-c that includes usb 3, dp and tb3

Usb-c Nintendo edition

Usb-c that does data and proprietary audio

Usb-c that does data and audio

 

How many more do we have to have?

 

You also forgot the mode with HDMI

 

This is a problem with a protocol and connector where you don't make things mandatory, and why we have to keep telling people that just because they have a Type-C port, you don't automagically have all these things.

[Sniperfox47]

7 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

"WHOA THIS PHONE HAS A THUNDERBOLT PORT"

"... calm your speed tits, cowboy"

We need a phone powered by a Tegra X2, with Thunderbolt 3 and eGPU support! Make it happen Razer!

 

P.S. Thunderbolt 3 was supposed to be opened up by Intel in Q2 2018 right? Has anyone heard any updates on that?

[Mira Yurizaki]

7 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

We need a phone powered by a Tegra X2, with Thunderbolt 3 and eGPU support! Make it happen Razer!

Let me know when a flagship phone with a Type C port uses something other than USB 2.0 (unless that happened already)

[HarryNyquist]

"""Universal""" Serial Bus

[Sniperfox47]

3 hours ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Let me know when a flagship phone with a Type C port uses something other than USB 2.0 (unless that happened already)

Pixel, S8, Note 8, Pixel 2, and S9 all are 3.1gen1 for sure.

 

Razer's phone also does for sure. I think the Essential phone is too but I might be wrong.

 

And I'm sure there are other phones out there from Sony, Huawei, LG, etc. that also impliment USB 3.1gen1, but I'm not super familiar with the wider range of devices.

 

You didn't typically see 3.0 Micro-B in phones because of two reasons. The first was the size of the port physically (it look up a ton of space inside the phone, even ignoring the massive connector itself), and the fact that until very recently USB 3.x chipsets weren't as well optimized and drew far more power.

[Mira Yurizaki]

16 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Pixel, S8, Note 8, Pixel 2, and S9 all are 3.1gen1 for sure.

 

Razer's phone also does for sure. I think the Essential phone is too but I might be wrong.

 

And I'm sure there are other phones out there from Sony, Huawei, LG, etc. that also impliment USB 3.1gen1, but I'm not super familiar with the wider range of devices.

 

You didn't typically see 3.0 Micro-B in phones because of two reasons. The first was the size of the port physically (it look up a ton of space inside the phone, even ignoring the massive connector itself), and the fact that until very recently USB 3.x chipsets weren't as well optimized and drew far more power.

I should back up.

 

Let me know when they ship a phone with a USB 3.0 Type A cable. I got a USB 2.0 cable with my G6 even though a website proved the phone is 3.1 Gen 1 capable.